Babers Clean Slate Philosophy Good or Bad?

[upperdeck]

anyone gone and looked at what he did when he got to BG? did he make the same statements?

 

[DoctorBombay]

Until HCDB methods are proven wrong I'm going to believe what the man is saying. He has been nothing but a home run for us. He has been upfront and honestly with everything he has been asked. What does he gain by lying to the fan base. HCDB knows how to get it done, just look at his last two stops. HCDB word > the collective tin foil hats of this board

We do what PSU, Rutgers, UMD, Pitt, BC are doing...we'll be nothing more than mediocre with an occasional very good.

Cuse has something unique to sell (playing in perfect conditions for nearly 12 games) that no other NE school can sell. Our weather/game day conditions will be better than what Baylor has.

You gotta believe...Cuse has a chance to be great!

 

[dollarbill44]

But I would watch the attorney in court at trial if that is what I was looking to purchase.

Even if the trial I was observing involved a different legal or factual issue.

I would be able to see how the attorney reacts to judges, witnesses and opposing counsel. I would get a sense of how the attorney interacts with the jury.

That's not how most people choose attorneys, though. They take advice from other people. And, you wouldn't take a corporate litigator to represent you in a criminal case, at least I would hope you wouldn't.

But, I think people are getting wrapped around the axle about Babers making final personnel decisions without seeing the team perform at all. He merely said he won't watch film from last year, opting to form his opinions from what he sees from the players in practice and discussions with his assistants (who likely will be watching film). From this thread, it seems like a lot of people think he will make the game roster for Colgate without ever watching the team.
Or, maybe some people are already grasping for reasons to claim this was a bad hire or setting up a thread for 3 years from now about how they knew this wouldn't work from the day that Coach Babers refused to watch game film from 2015?

 

[CuseCactus]

That's not how most people choose attorneys, though. They take advice from other people. And, you wouldn't take a corporate litigator to represent you in a criminal case, at least I would hope you wouldn't.

But, I think people are getting wrapped around the axle about Babers making final personnel decisions without seeing the team perform at all. He merely said he won't watch film from last year, opting to form his opinions from what he sees from the players in practice and discussions with his assistants (who likely will be watching film). From this thread, it seems like a lot of people think he will make the game roster for Colgate without ever watching the team.
Or, maybe some people are already grasping for reasons to claim this was a bad hire or setting up a thread for 3 years from now about how they knew this wouldn't work from the day that Coach Babers refused to watch game film from 2015?

"wrapped around the axle" - good phrase. gonna plagiarize this in the meeting I'm heading into right now. thanks.

 

[javadoc]

Curious what everyone thinks!

http://www.syracuse.com/orangefootb...m_last_season_3_thing.html#incart_river_index

But as early preparations continue for the 2016 season, first-year Syracuse football coach Dino Babers won't be doing any type of film evaluation on the players he has in the program.

"I will not assess what we have" Babers said in an interview with CNYCentral that aired following Sunday's Super Bowl.

"When you watch the old tape you're watching old coaches coach a certain way. What I want to do is have a clean slate with all of our new players because it's a new coaching staff and I don't want to see them doing the old. I want to see them doing the new.

"Although there's some coaches on the staff that will watch previous game tape, I will not do that. I want all young men to have a clean slate and a fair chance. I think that's the best way when you're starting a new program."

The answer to any such question is "good" because his coaching trajectory and results speak for themselves. But by all means, let's ask him to change the way he does things because it's clearly not working.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

We do what PSU, Rutgers, UMD, Pitt, BC are doing...we'll be nothing more than mediocre with an occasional very good.

Cuse has something unique to sell (playing in perfect conditions for nearly 12 games) that no other NE school can sell. Our weather/game day conditions will be better than what Baylor has.

You gotta believe...Cuse has a chance to be great!

Amen! Preach!

 

[OrangePA]

For about half the roster that played, and not informative at all for the other half.

And those are all things that will MUCH BETTER gauged by first hand observation, when Babers has the kids doing the things he actually wants them to do, and not a bunch of ineffectual stuff that the last coaching staff had them doing that will have little bearing on how they'll be asked to play moving forward.

He'll get all the information he needs during spring practice.




Bunk.

"Bunk"

We all fall prey to the hope for the magic elixir - the "system" will cure our woes.

It feels good and it affords hope, but the reality is that the players implementing the system are the most important factor.

Give me the biggest, strongest, fastest and smartest players and you can play any "system" you want to play.

I'll run the old Wing T and you can run whatever defense you want to run.

And my team will probably win.

Chip Kelly learned that the "system" is far less important than the talent. Indeed, he gave up LeSean McCoy, DeSean Jackson, Evan Mathis, Jeremy Maclin and learned that it doesn't matter that you run the newest most creative system ever seen.

The talent is more important than the system.

 

[RF2044]

"Bunk"

We all fall prey to the hope for the magic elixir - the "system" will cure our woes.

It feels good and it affords hope, but the reality is that the players implementing the system are the most important factor.

Give me the biggest, strongest, fastest and smartest players and you can play any "system" you want to play.

I'll run the old Wing T and you can run whatever defense you want to run.

And my team will probably win.

Chip Kelly learned that the "system" is far less important than the talent. Indeed, he gave up LeSean McCoy, DeSean Jackson, Evan Mathis, Jeremy Maclin and learned that it doesn't matter that you run the newest most creative system ever seen.

The talent is more important than the system.

I don't mean this to be offensive to you personally, OPa, but this ^^^^ is literally one of the most off target representations of antiquated thinking posts I've ever read on this board--bar none.

On top of that, you make an NFL comparison and try to apply that to college football, which is almost an entirely a different game, to prove your point. Dinosaur thinking like the one being expressed in your post is the reason that our program is where it is, and why we are fortunate to have an innovative head coach like Babers, who will finally drag our program out of the stone ages.

Of course talent is important, but it isn't more important than systems to all but a small handful of factories, that can win no matter what system they run. The fallacy is trying to emluate what those programs do can be successful when you don't have the "biggest, strongest, fastest" superior talent that they have [BTW, watching old game film doesn't give you the "biggest, strongest, fastes, smartest" talent, either]. That's why running a pro-set system won't work here, even though it works for Alabama.

Which is why your proposition from an earlier post that system doesn't matter is entirely, tragically "bunk." It appears that the last 15 years have taught you nothing about the chasm that separated our program from modern collegiate football.

Feel free to run the old Wing T and keep reviewing that film from the Rhode Island game while railing about a "magic elixir"--I'll stick with Babers, his proven system, and track record of results that he will apply successfully here to transform our program's culture and the results we see on the field during game day.

You'll be singing a completely different tune about system in less than two years.

 

[SoBristol]

Before people go nuts on system vs talent, consider that Babers did better in 2015 (when his senior QB returned) than in 2014 (when that star QB he inherited from Clawson was out with injury, and he had to play a soph QB).
He had a young defense in 2014; it was much better in 2015. And it wasn't Babers' system that made it better -- he brought in a new DC, and some of those young guys got better.

Systems help, but it sure helps to have your #1 QB, an all star or two in the OL, an all-league RB, and a pair of WRs like Roger Lewis and Dieter. Babers did not weave magic from rags.

 

[TexanMark]

I think the answer is in the middle...both (talent and scheme) are important. I think scheme (or system) for SU is critical missing "X Factor" to differentiate us from the rest of the NE/Mid Atlantic FB powers. The scheme will enable us to recruit more talent.

 

[RF2044]

Before people go nuts on system vs talent, consider that Babers did better in 2015 (when his senior QB returned) than in 2014 (when that star QB he inherited from Clawson was out with injury, and he had to play a soph QB).
He had a young defense in 2014; it was much better in 2015. And it wasn't Babers' system that made it better -- he brought in a new DC, and some of those young guys got better.

Systems help, but it sure helps to have your #1 QB, an all star or two in the OL, an all-league RB, and a pair of WRs like Roger Lewis and Dieter. Babers did not weave magic from rags.

Nobody is saying that he did. But his SYSTEM enabled that talent to thrive, even when they played P5 teams. If you put Shafer--love the guy--on BGSU and let him coach the way he prefers, there is no doubt in my mind that BGSU wouldn't have come anywhere close to the performance they had last season.

Why? Because coaching / system is a significant variable in team performance.

In terms of "rags" -- Babers isn't taking over a FCS team, he's taking over a Syracuse team with Dungey, Ishmael, Estime, Fredericks, Philips, Neal, Strickland, etc. Sure, there are question marks, too, but a head coach with a solid coaching staff that actually knows what they're doing are going to coax a lot more productivity out of that group than a coaching staff who doesn't.

 

[tep624]

He's a head coach with a history of winning. If his formula includes standing around in a thong during practice, I'm for it. I just don't want to see it lol!

Babers should not be compared to Greg Robinson in any way, shape or form. The two are polar opposites. One is a veteran HC with a history of winning and distinct systems he stands by on both sides of the ball. The other was a first time HC who didn't even have an offensive system until Syracuse hired him.

 

[Woodchuck]

why should he watch tape to evaluate how fredricks/morris/mcfarlane ran vs. LSU, Florida St. and Clemson when he can use his own eyes to watch thud drills vs our second team defense?

 

[TheCusian]

I don't mean this to be offensive to you personally, OPa, but this ^^^^ is literally one of the most off target representations of antiquated thinking posts I've ever read on this board--bar none. On top of that, you make an NFL comparison and try to apply that to college football, which is almost an entirely a different game, to prove your point. Dinosaur thinking like the one being expressed in your post is the reason that our program is where it is, and why we are fortunate to have an innovative head coach like Babers, who will finally drag our program out of the stone ages. Of course talent is important, but it isn't more important than systems to all but a small handful of factories, that can win no matter what system they run. The fallacy is trying to emluate what those programs do can be successful when you don't have the "biggest, strongest, fastest" superior talent that they have [BTW, watching old game film doesn't give you the "biggest, strongest, fastes, smartest" talent, either]. That's why running a pro-set system won't work here, even though it works for Alabama. Which is why your proposition from an earlier post that system doesn't matter is entirely, tragically "bunk." It appears that the last 15 years have taught you nothing about the chasm that separated our program from modern collegiate football. Feel free to run the old Wing T and keep reviewing that film from the Rhode Island game while railing about a "magic elixir"--I'll stick with Babers, his proven system, and track record of results that he will apply successfully here to transform our program's culture and the results we see on the field during game day. You'll be singing a completely different tune about system in less than two years.

Excellent post. Like x 1000.

Talent at Alabama is so elite they don't have to worry about systems. The history of our program for the last 15 years has been talent deficit along with a lack of doing anything new to offset it.

Babers system will work and it will help make our case with better talent. But it's likely given our geography (and lack of SEC/FSU Bagmen™) that we'll be running a deficit forever.

 

[tep624]

Excellent post. Like x 1000.

Talent at Alabama is so elite they don't have to worry about systems. The history of our program for the last 15 years has been talent deficit along with a lack of doing anything new to offset it.

Babers system will work and it will help make our case with better talent. But it's likely given our geography (and lack of SEC/FSU Bagmen™) that we'll be running a deficit forever.

A system strategy is exactly what our predicament calls for. The writing has been on the wall for years.

 

[SoBristol]

... But his SYSTEM enabled that talent to thrive, even when they played P5 teams. If you put Shafer--love the guy--on BGSU and let him coach the way he prefers, there is no doubt in my mind that BGSU wouldn't have come anywhere close to the performance they had last season.

Why? Because coaching / system is a significant variable in team performance.

In terms of "rags" -- Babers isn't taking over a FCS team, he's taking over a Syracuse team with Dungey, Ishmael, Estime, Fredericks, Philips, Neal, Strickland, etc. ... a head coach with a solid coaching staff that actually knows what they're doing are going to coax a lot more productivity out of that group than a coaching staff who doesn't.

I wasn't writing about how Babers will do with our talent at SU -- I have high hopes, as long as he can keep Dungey healthy, and re-build the OL. The point was he had a lot of talent on his 2015 BGSU team -- and for what it is worth, those guys were also very effective under Clawson (the QB and RB).

On the defensive side, it remains to be seen whether the new staff is a match for Bullough, Daoust, Lea and Reed. On paper, the new defensive coaches have little or no P5 experience, and BGSU was bad on defense in 2014. Brian Ward put up good numbers at Eastern IL. When people consider "system" or scheme, they seem to be focused only on the Babers air-attack.

 

[TheCusian]

I wasn't writing about how Babers will do with our talent at SU -- I have high hopes, as long as he can keep Dungey healthy, and re-build the OL. The point was he had a lot of talent on his 2015 BGSU team -- and for what it is worth, those guys were also very effective under Clawson (the QB and RB). On the defensive side, it remains to be seen whether the new staff is a match for Bullough, Daoust, Lea and Reed. On paper, the new defensive coaches have little or no P5 experience, and BGSU was bad on defense in 2014. Brian Ward put up good numbers at Eastern IL. When people consider "system" or scheme, they seem to be focused only on the Babers air-attack.

Not me. Tampa 2 fits his offense perfectly and was a huge reason BG won the MAC last year.

#8 in INT, #50 YPP - combined with a tempo offense can work out very well.

 

[RF2044]

I wasn't writing about how Babers will do with our talent at SU -- I have high hopes, as long as he can keep Dungey healthy, and re-build the OL. The point was he had a lot of talent on his 2015 BGSU team -- and for what it is worth, those guys were also very effective under Clawson (the QB and RB).

On the defensive side, it remains to be seen whether the new staff is a match for Bullough, Daoust, Lea and Reed. On paper, the new defensive coaches have little or no P5 experience, and BGSU was bad on defense in 2014. Brian Ward put up good numbers at Eastern IL. When people consider "system" or scheme, they seem to be focused only on the Babers air-attack.

I completely understood the point you were making, and was making a comparison to what Babers inherited here to what you were claiming about Bowling Green. The raw materials at SU are on hand for improved scoring and overall offensive production.

Better coaching / system + same talent = improved results

I believe [and understand that not everybody will be willing to accompany me on this leap of faith] that some important amino acids are in place for us to have the building blocks of a functional defensive unit, as well. That remains to be seen. And I disagree with your assertion that the BGSU defense was "bad" -- this has been discussed in numerous threads. Far from a perfect comparison, but almost like looking at TOP and jumping to the statistical conclusion that Oregon's offense is bad because they score too fast and don't retain possession.

 

[HRE Otto IV]

Not me. Tampa 2 fits his offense perfectly and was a huge reason BG won the MAC last year.

#8 in INT, #50 YPP - combined with a tempo offense can work out very well.

IMO the best way to evaluate a team is vs like competition talent wise. Which would mean in conference play. OOC schedules vary too much. Conference to conference varies too much. Which is what makes national ranking useless. In the MAC Bowling Green was 2nd in YPP, 1st in YPA, 1st in opponent QB rating, 1st in INTs, 4th in YPC, 4th in fumbles recovered, 7th in forced fumbles, 2nd in sacks, 3rd in TFL, 6th in 3rd downs, and 1st in redzone TD %. All in all they had a good D compared to the rest of the MAC.

 

[TheCusian]

IMO the best way to evaluate a team is vs like competition talent wise. Which would mean in conference play. OOC schedules vary too much. Conference to conference varies too much. Which is what makes national ranking useless. In the MAC Bowling Green was 2nd in YPP, 1st in YPA, 1st in opponent QB rating, 1st in INTs, 4th in YPC, 4th in fumbles recovered, 7th in forced fumbles, 2nd in sacks, 3rd in TFL, 6th in 3rd downs, and 1st in redzone TD %. All in all they had a good D compared to the rest of the MAC.

Agreed. But #8 in INT nationally is nothing to sneeze at.

 

[LIBALL]

why should he watch tape to evaluate how fredricks/morris/mcfarlane ran vs. LSU, Florida St. and Clemson when he can use his own eyes to watch thud drills vs our second team defense?

Everyone knows in order to have a successful RB or QB it starts with the first five up front. Get the block and let them beat out the secondary. Doesn't matter who you have in the backfield if your o line doesn't block. I'm quite sure Babers will correct that too. On a great team everyone does their part.

 

[CIL]

This thread is making much ado about nothing. Of course someone watched film of the team - how the would they know what positions to recruit and not to recruit. Perhaps Babers did not watch film, be he did says that the staff and assistants had indeed watched film.

That being said, his system is so different than the previous staff's that it is really tough to judge how our current talent would fit into the new system. For instance, it's probably tough to see how Ben Lewis the H-back would be as a slot receiver here. Practices will probably have to dictate that, and there is nothing wrong with that. The cream tends to rise to the top - Marcus Sales is the exception, not the rule.

I find it funny that a certain poster spends a lot of time stating the importance of tradition in our uniform choice but finds systems overrated. Very odd indeed.

 

[Scooch]

Saying that premiere talent trumps most else is so patently obvious that it doesn't need any debate.

What's odd is that the innovative system that was implemented by George DeLeone allowed us to compete on a national level. So now we're dismissing systems? Obviously Mac and P upgraded our talent, but I think it's safe to say that schools like LSU, Michigan, Texas, Ohio State, Auburn, Penn State all had substantially more talent top to bottom on their rosters than SU. Yet we beat them, and our system was a significant factor as to why.

So strange to dismiss that.

 

[Moontan]

Marcus Sales is the exception, not the rule.

Yet, he had a key TD reception in Tampa, right in front of my eyes when I exclaimed "Marcus ' Sales", as part of that 98-yard TD drive that propelled SU to the inaugural Pin Stripe Bowl. A bowl game in which he scored 2 TDs.

He didn't disappoint nearly as much as another CBA WR graduate...

 

[kirbivore]

I don't agree with it all.

If you have information you use it - the more the better.

The film will demonstrate who plays hard, who quits, who has game speed, etc.

Greg Robinson didn't look at film and I thought at the time that it was a big mistake.

our first brick in the agenda