Babers is exactly average according to SRS

[UnderHisOwnPower]

Over his eight years at Syracuse, he is exactly average with a strength of schedule 2.45 point margin per game higher than average

At bgsu, he was .72 point margin per game better than average and the strength of schedule is 3.1 point margin per game worse than average

This year our SRS is -0.16

Shafer was -1.18 here

Marrone was exactly average too! What are the odds

Greg -8.19

P was 7.22 here. -0.2 the last three years. -5.91 at uconn. 4.9 overall

Mac 6.85

Maloney 2.49

Ben 6.38

Chick Meehan 11.56

The halcyon days of chick Meehan, who can forget?

Ps greatness, quantified!

 

[qdawgg]

Well I think it is a safe bet that Dino never groped anyone so we have that going for us. I mean it's not like we are Penn State or something ... I have to just shake my head at all the crap these B1G schools have done .. Mich St. and PSU leading the charge of course. Ah the good ole midwest ... home of pervert coaches and serial killers ...

Yet they go full out for sign stealing. Which I get but have a culture of rape at your school and in general the B10 doesn’t care

 

[MSOrange]

And there's the context surrounding their situations. Marrone didn't have a real IPF, his budget for assistants was much less, and he was in a conference nobody took seriously. Would he have been more successful with the support that Babers has had? It's hard to say. I'm not sure his personality was made for long term college coaching even if he is a superior tactician. It's not a reach to assume we would have had a functional oline though.

I've tried to point out that context so many times, but it's seems a lost cause at this point. We weren't even competing in the Big East when it came to resources. But just pointing to strength of schedule and the numbers makes the point people want to make, so they ignore any context.

 

[Millhouse]

I've tried to point out that context so many times, but it's seems a lost cause at this point. We weren't even competing in the Big East when it came to resources. But just pointing to strength of schedule and the numbers makes the point people want to make, so they ignore any context.

"Weren't even competing in the big east"

What does that imply about the quality of opponent in the big east?

and then you immediately dismiss strength of schedule

 

[MSOrange]

"Weren't even competing in the big east"

What does that imply about the quality of opponent in the big east?

and then you immediately dismiss strength of schedule

I don't dismiss strength of schedule but I also don't think that's the only thing to take into account when looking at those years.

 

[Millhouse]

What’s really”funny,” is that there is a world where people will make weak arguments with advanced type stats, etc. when W’s & L’s (19-43 ACC record to date) is by a landslide the most significant stat that ultimately matters.

There’s no world that’ll ever persuade me a 19-43 peer record is anything close to average.

It's not that advanced a stat. Scoring margin weighted by how good the teams you play are.

8 years of teams ranked as high as clemson and florida state are woud do a number on any syracuse coach we've ever had.

We can use numbers to compare schedules over times or we can just say PEERS and feel better

 

[Millhouse]

I don't dismiss strength of schedule but I also don't think that's the only thing to take into account when looking at those years.

if marrone is very good, then how is shrader horrible just a couple years later?

we played one ranked team in 2010 and they were 20th

people just want to extrapolate out from a good couple months in 2012

if babers had left after 2018, i'd probably be sitting here saying the same thing

 

[SmilinBob]

Looking at this data Mahoney did ok, tough to follow a legend.

What also would be interesting is the records of HC's within the first 2 or 3 years after the previous HC and the talent or lack of they acquired. P was 20-4 in the first 2 years after Mac How many times after that did he win 10 games? Once in 2003?

Babers 10 win season was with Shafers main guys and hasn't whiffed it since.

 

[MSOrange]

if marrone is very good, then how is shrader horrible just a couple years later?

we played one ranked team in 2010 and they were 20th

people just want to extrapolate out from a good couple months in 2012

if babers had left after 2018, i'd probably be sitting here saying the same thing

I'm just trying to add some context as far as budget and facilities and the kind of program that Marrone took over and had to start from. But I know it's not straight numbers that you can use to show how you're the smartest guy in the room, so you're not capable of engaging in that discussion.

 

[SU91]

I don't dismiss strength of schedule but I also don't think that's the only thing to take into account when looking at those years.

Marrone went to two bowl games beating a good Kansas State team and running roughshod over a good WVU team. We actually ran a competent offense with a legitimate offensive line and had a defense that didn’t get punked on every third down. And, as you point out, Marrone also pulled us out of the abyss.

No NFL team is hiring Dino Babers for anything. Not for head coach, not assistant coach, not for a position coach. Nick Saban sure as heck isn’t adding him to his staff.

But Dino is the equivalent of Marrone because “stats”? Nobody who appreciates football will look at the two men and come to the same conclusion. I respect someone making the argument for fun and the sake of conversation, but any serious consideration is misguided.

 

[Millhouse]

Marrone went to two bowl games beating a good Kansas State team and running roughshod over a good WVU team. We actually ran a competent offense with a legitimate offensive line and had a defense that didn’t get punked on every third down. And, as you point out, Marrone also pulled us out of the abyss.

No NFL team is hiring Dino Babers for anything. Not for head coach, not assistant coach, not for a position coach. Nick Saban sure as heck isn’t adding him to his staff.

But Dino is the equivalent of Marrone because “stats”? Nobody who appreciates football will look at the two men and come to the same conclusion. I respect someone making the argument for fun and the sake of conversation, but any serious consideration is misguided.

That is a great narrative full of contextual context

 

[Millhouse]

Career SRS says Schiano is below average, that narrative is ok with the board

Greg Schiano College Coaching Records, Awards and Leaderboards | College Football at Sports-Reference.com

Check out Greg Schiano's College Coaching Records, Awards and Leaderboards and more about College Football at Sports-Reference.com

www.sports-reference.com

 

[Millhouse]

Addazio is below average too

Steve Addazio College Coaching Records, Awards and Leaderboards | College Football at Sports-Reference.com

Check out Steve Addazio's College Coaching Records, Awards and Leaderboards and more about College Football at Sports-Reference.com

www.sports-reference.com

 

[elimunelson]

Looking at this data Mahoney did ok, tough to follow a legend.

What also would be interesting is the records of HC's within the first 2 or 3 years after the previous HC and the talent or lack of they acquired. P was 20-4 in the first 2 years after Mac How many times after that did he win 10 games? Once in 2003?

Babers 10 win season was with Shafers main guys and hasn't whiffed it since.

20-4 is still...20 and 4.

the 10 game thresshold matters less to me than the ranked seasons that followed. Paul had them ranked at the end in 95, 96, 97, 98 and 01. 9 or 10 wins who cares. The team was respected by the polls that we were ranked in lieu of our non 10 win seasons.

93 and 94 (regardless of how bad they finished) both years we were in the top 12 or so at points.

Paul inherited a great program and kept it great for the 90s (won't get into the 2000s which is an acceptable debate).

By transitive property, Dick Mac was the biggest factor of all making us a great program. Paul just kept the engine revving.

Syracuse needs to find another Dick Mac more than any modern comp

 

[Millhouse]

I don't dismiss strength of schedule but I also don't think that's the only thing to take into account when looking at those years.

Greg Robinson stunk. His recruiting wasn't that bad. We lost a lot more than we should've. But it wasn't some miracle that a decent program that was really bad for just 4 years didn't stay that way

 

[Wrinkle]

Dino is just not good enough

 

[Millhouse]

20-4 is still...20 and 4.

the 10 game thresshold matters less to me than the ranked seasons that followed. Paul had them ranked at the end in 95, 96, 97, 98 and 01. 9 or 10 wins who cares. The team was respected by the polls that we were ranked in lieu of our non 10 win seasons.

93 and 94 (regardless of how bad they finished) both years we were in the top 12 or so at points.

Paul inherited a great program and kept it great for the 90s (won't get into the 2000s which is an acceptable debate).

By transitive property, Dick Mac was the biggest factor of all making us a great program. Paul just kept the engine revving.

Syracuse needs to find another Dick Mac more than any modern comp

Maloney is slightly underrated because people don't pay enough attention to strength of schedule

The 1980 team was comparable to bowl teams with a harder schedule and a slightly worse record

 

[SmilinBob]

20-4 is still...20 and 4.

the 10 game thresshold matters less to me than the ranked seasons that followed. Paul had them ranked at the end in 95, 96, 97, 98 and 01. 9 or 10 wins who cares. The team was respected by the polls that we were ranked in lieu of our non 10 win seasons.

93 and 94 (regardless of how bad they finished) both years we were in the top 12 or so at points.

Paul inherited a great program and kept it great for the 90s (won't get into the 2000s which is an acceptable debate).

By transitive property, Dick Mac was the biggest factor of all making us a great program. Paul just kept the engine revving.

Syracuse needs to find another Dick Mac more than any modern comp

My point is that it somewhat skews the data. I like P and he was a very good good coach.

A lot of us talk about Babers not winning with his own players and I was curious about data regarding players the coaches actually recruited and won with and their record with that tied in.

 

[Millhouse]

Marrone went to two bowl games beating a good Kansas State team and running roughshod over a good WVU team. We actually ran a competent offense with a legitimate offensive line and had a defense that didn’t get punked on every third down. And, as you point out, Marrone also pulled us out of the abyss.

No NFL team is hiring Dino Babers for anything. Not for head coach, not assistant coach, not for a position coach. Nick Saban sure as heck isn’t adding him to his staff.

But Dino is the equivalent of Marrone because “stats”? Nobody who appreciates football will look at the two men and come to the same conclusion. I respect someone making the argument for fun and the sake of conversation, but any serious consideration is misguided.

No NFL team would have hired Mike Leach, Art Briles, Rich Rodriguez, you name it , not sure that's a standard i care about.

 

[Millhouse]

My point is that it somewhat skews the data. I like P and he was a very good good coach.

A lot of us talk about Babers not winning with his own players and I was curious about data regarding players the coaches actually recruited and won with and their record with that tied in.

Part of the reason I'm fine with canning Babers is he can't find/develop a qb. Even inheriting a good one, he's just average over plenty of time so what's the point of worrying about firing an average guy

 

[Chip]

I don't know where this fits into the analysis, but 2012 and 2018 were probably the healthiest seasons I can remember. 2012 Pugh was hurt early, but came back after a couple games. Seemed like no one was hurt at the end. Same with 2018.

Maybe we're just a program who can be pretty decent when everyone is available, and just sharts the bed once certain players of prominence get hurt. Happened to Marrone in 2011, happened to Shafer, happens to Dino every year.

That said, I wouldn't pay a coach $4-$5 million for it and be trapped because of a stupid buyout.

 

[sufandu]

"Weren't even competing in the big east"

What does that imply about the quality of opponent in the big east?

and then you immediately dismiss strength of schedule

He said not competing in the Big East with regards to resources (staff budget, facilities, etc.). He was pointing out how hamstrung our staffs were compared to our competitors, which at the time were not close to the level of the resources our current competition has.

 

[SmilinBob]

Part of the reason I'm fine with canning Babers is he can't find/develop a qb. Even inheriting a good one, he's just average over plenty of time so what's the point of worrying about firing an average guy

I know you I have discussed the areas of concern and the 4 WR vs 2 RB and I agree a talented QB would be nice and your point makes sense no doubt. I think he can find an athletic QB but unfortunately not so much a passing one.

I think he would have done better using what he had and not forcing something he didn't teach well or have the talent for.

 

[Millhouse]

So everyone thinks that Clawson is much better than Babers, right? Me too

His schedule adjust per game scoring margin at Wake is 2.61

Less than a fg better per game. That's better but less than I would've thought. A big difference is the weird 2020 year

He's been to a lot more bowls because he's a hair better and his schedule has been easier

People like bowls, you get bowls by making the schedule as easy as possible.

 

[Millhouse]

I know you I have discussed the areas of concern and the 4 WR vs 2 RB and I agree a talented QB would be nice and your point makes sense no doubt. I think he can find an athletic QB but unfortunately not so much a passing one.

I think he would have done better using what he had and not forcing something he didn't teach well or have the talent for.

I just don't see many schools being successful without passing qbs