Bad Leonard

[JustPherU]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, direct payment from universities to student athletes will destroy US higher education as we know it.

I’m onboard for that!

 

[Newhouser]

I think ultimately the SEC and Big 10 schools just don't care if their players are students. They'll break off and make their NCAA Super League and we'll see if everyone else is ok with just being a university again

Agree. I think they tell schools you need to commit x millions of dollars to football and allow players to be part-time students. Where schools like SU fall after that will be interesting.

 

[PoppyHart]

Two points:

1. Oral contracts are enforceable. The fact that 6 players are all saying the same thing is probably good evidence but obviously need to know more facts.

2. You are confusing the word verbal with oral. Oral is spoken words. Verbal can be written or spoken words. Written contracts are verbal contracts.

Who taught you this?

 

[OttosShoes]

I've heard Minnesota for example say their total annual athletics player payouts are expected to be $21 million per year. Maybe that's the limit, I don't know)

Pretty much, it's the House vs. NCAA settlement. As I recall it's 20% of the average P4 revenue athletics revenue. It grows and gets recalculated over time, however, I personally expect some other major change to supercede it.

Where schools like SU fall after that will be interesting.

I think the big thing is that there's a boat about to leave port and we'd like to be on it when it does.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

I’m onboard for that!

Higher ed has its problems, but total destruction isn't a solution.

 

[Moontan]

Six former FSU basketball players sue coach Leonard Hamilton, alleging unpaid NIL compensation

 

[Cusefan95]

No. Lying to recruits is unsustainable, now that payments are legal. The thing that has changed is the kids now have power and a voice.

I think the issue is NIL isn’t supposed to be used to recruit - so these promises are all oral (and therefore easy to break). Colleges need to accept it’s going to be used to recruit and allow written agreements prior to athletes signing anything to go to a school (or find some other solution).

The significant part which is broken is that part.

 

[Cusefan95]

Higher ed has its problems, but total destruction isn't a solution.

The problems are so significant that it might mean total destruction - while not a great solution - is also inevitable.

Personally I don’t think the problems are practically solvable, so I think the education model we’ve developed is going to implode - but I expect a lot of people invested in salvaging it are going to try like hell to do so.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

The problems are so significant that it might mean total destruction - while not a great solution - is also inevitable.

Personally I don’t think the problems are practically solvable, so I think the education model we’ve developed is going to implode - but I expect a lot of people invested in salvaging it are going to try like hell to do so.

Eh, I disagree.

 

[pwong]

So in return, what was the player's obligation to the
"business partners"? I wouldn't pay anyone $250k
just for showing up, but then this 2 way relationship
is light years removed from the original intent of NIL.

One of the first steps in getting any sense of sanity in
this environment is to get rid of the term "Name/Image/Likeness".
Kids are not paid for any of this. They are paid based on anticipated
value to enhancing the program's success on the court/field. It's
performance based, pay for play. NIL is in the rear view mirror,
never to be seen or heard from again.

Its the same thing as doing work under the verbal agreement that you will get paid. You should pay them but there’s scummy people out there. Most NIL deals should be in written contracts.

Once the government sided with players being treated as workers, it opened up pandora’s box in terms of regulations.

 

[AcAndAc]

This might be a good thing. If it is the wild west and kids are getting screwed, some structure may well be tolerated by the courts because the "problem" required it.

For example, NIL funding entities could be registered with the NCAA and be an "open book" to prevent fraudulent inducements to sign/commit. I suspect the IRS would not mind that either. In exchange for that regulatory oversight... certain limits are imposed. All contracts must be a minimum of 2 years and bind the student to that university for the duration.

I think they create a model of student athlete paid degree protocol:

1. Optional. Can choose current system or degree maximizing system model.
2. The degree maximizing system model:
a. 3 years to get an associates degree from a university, 3 years of eligibility. Once degree is received, free to transfer without restriction--whether it is 2 years or 3 years. Contract 1.
b. remainder of 5 years to get bachelor's degree... the other 2 or 3 years. Contract 2.
c. For any student athlete with a bachelor's after 4 years... they get a 5th year and another opportunity to do a Contract 3.

Therefore... maximum of three contracts and maximum of 5 years of playing over 5 years.

 

[djcon57]

This might be a good thing. If it is the wild west and kids are getting screwed, some structure may well be tolerated by the courts because the "problem" required it.

For example, NIL funding entities could be registered with the NCAA and be an "open book" to prevent fraudulent inducements to sign/commit. I suspect the IRS would not mind that either. In exchange for that regulatory oversight... certain limits are imposed. All contracts must be a minimum of 2 years and bind the student to that university for the duration.

I think they create a model of student athlete paid degree protocol:

1. Optional. Can choose current system or degree maximizing system model.
2. The degree maximizing system model:
a. 3 years to get an associates degree from a university, 3 years of eligibility. Once degree is received, free to transfer without restriction--whether it is 2 years or 3 years. Contract 1.
b. remainder of 5 years to get bachelor's degree... the other 2 or 3 years. Contract 2.
c. For any student athlete with a bachelor's after 4 years... they get a 5th year and another opportunity to do a Contract 3.

Therefore... maximum of three contracts and maximum of 5 years of playing over 5 years.

By doing this you are "stripping the student athletes of their negotiating leverage and blinding them to their true NIL value." (not my words fwiw)

Just because some kids are screwed, it's not MY kid's/MY school's problem.

Again, not saying this is right or anything, just saying, you have to look at how your proposal gets around the court's decisions.

 

[AcAndAc]

By doing this you are "stripping the student athletes of their negotiating leverage and blinding them to their true NIL value." (not my words fwiw)

Just because some kids are screwed, it's not MY kid's/MY school's problem.

Again, not saying this is right or anything, just saying, you have to look at how your proposal gets around the court's decisions.

I know. But maybe someone can figure out something. If a movie star commits to three movies... they commit contractually. If this can become contractual, both parties can get rights. Just need a system where most people will want to opt into it for some reason... placating parents that the loss of NIL is made up for by the increased certainty/degree/etc.

 

[HyattsCuse]

The system very soon is going to each school will have their pots of money to pay players. Bigger schools/conferences will have bigger pots of money in their sports fund. (I've heard Minnesota for example say their total annual athletics player payouts are expected to be $21 million per year. Maybe that's the limit, I don't know)

The schools General Manager(s) (with coaches input) will pay the players directly using the sports fund. It will be up the the GM/school to decide how much to fund towards football, basketball, etc. players. I have no idea how it will work with title 9 rules and non-revenue sports getting very little.

That’s all fine and all, but that still won’t solve anything. Schools are going to still have boosters/businesses/3rd parties that offer big NIL to a player and that player just happens to attend whatever school the 3rd party is associated with. There’s no way to regulate endorsements and other money streams technically unrelated to a school.

I see NIL + transfer portal forever making college athletics the Wild Wild West until the money dries up (if that ever happens).

 

[chuck]

This model is unsustainable. It’s coming to a head.

It sure is!!!

 

[sufandu]

How do you propose eliminating something that has become a legal standard?

He's not saying stop paying players, at least that's not how I read it. He's saying stop calling it what it's not. It's not name/image/likeness. It's pay for play.

 

[sufandu]

Or, and hear me out, how about they get out of the professional sports business and get back to education? Colleges and universities got real fat and happy on getting massive checks from television and attendance along with government loans. This led to increased markups on tuition that are disconnected from any kind of market, administrative bloat and ballooning salaries for executives.

The business of higher education has been in a distorted reality for a half century and the intertwining interests are a metastatic cancer. Getting out of that fantasyland is going to cause a lot of pain.

There are a lot of schools that fit that description, most of them really. We just don't know their names because they're not on TV.

The problem is the rabid nature of the fans. As long as people in the tens of thousands are willing to pay whatever is demanded to attend games and millions others watch on TV, there's no incentive for revenue schools to change.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

He's not saying stop paying players, at least that's not how I read it. He's saying stop calling it what it's not. It's not name/image/likeness. It's pay for play.

According to the Supreme Court it's name, image, and likeness.

NCAA v. Alston

In January of 2021, as the coronavirus pandemic reached its peak in the United States, Alabama Crimson Tide football coach Nick Saban won his seventh national collegiate championship.Alex Scarborough,

harvardlawreview.org

 

[721Comstock]

According to the Supreme Court it's name, image, and likeness.

NCAA v. Alston

In January of 2021, as the coronavirus pandemic reached its peak in the United States, Alabama Crimson Tide football coach Nick Saban won his seventh national collegiate championship.Alex Scarborough,

harvardlawreview.org

THIS. 1000x THIS.

People keep talking about NIL like it’s a salary / compensation from the schools/programs.

It is NOT.
And per the ruling, it cannot be.

NIL IS NOT ‘PAY FOR PLAY’.

It is an endorsement deal.

People keep referring to all the professional sports and their collective bargaining and salary caps and whatnot,
which ALL pertain to player salaries.

There is no such thing, nor will there ever be, a cap on individual player endorsement deals.

So, until and unless the NCAA ever works out how to have programs directly pay athletes, and not have it completely destroy higher education in the process
(Spoiler - it will.)
there won’t be any collective bargaining/salary caps/yada yada yada for player comp.

And even then - there still won’t be any cap or regulation on NIL.
Because it is an endorsement deal.

So boosters will still throw $ around to get the best players they can for their teams via NIL.

 

[OCESIP]

THIS. 1000x THIS.

People keep talking about NIL like it’s a salary / compensation from the schools/programs.

It is NOT.
And per the ruling, it cannot be.

NIL IS NOT ‘PAY FOR PLAY’.

It is an endorsement deal.

People keep referring to all the professional sports and their collective bargaining and salary caps and whatnot,
which ALL pertain to player salaries.

There is no such thing, nor will there ever be, a cap on individual player endorsement deals.

So, until and unless the NCAA ever works out how to have programs directly pay athletes, and not have it completely destroy higher education in the process
(Spoiler - it will.)
there won’t be any collective bargaining/salary caps/yada yada yada for player comp.

And even then - there still won’t be any cap or regulation on NIL.
Because it is an endorsement deal.

So boosters will still throw $ around to get the best players they can for their teams via NIL.

It doesn't make any difference if the system wants to call them
"endorsement" deals. The reality is they are not. Calling a million
dollar deal with a high school athlete an "endorsement" when the
world knows it's just an enticement to play seems be at the crux
of the problem. If that can't be acknowledged we're really at an impasse.

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

Gnarly. Current system is definitely unsustainable using NIL as recruitment incentive.

Surprised we haven't seen this sooner TBH. I dunno if this is what happened but it's not hard to imagine:
Coach: "hey I got these really great prospects, give them $250k each?"
NIL Funder: "Sounds good!"
*Coach promises endorsements and gets recruits*
Coach: "OK I got them and they're here, time to strike a deal!"
NIL Funder: "Huh? Those are just 'great' prospects, not 'really great' prospects. I'm not funding them."

Now the coach is on the hook.

I don’t think Hamilton can be on the hook. Assuming there is an agreement of a payment from the coach or by the school, both parties were or should have been aware that such deals are impermissible. Courts don’t enforce impermissible contracts.
“Judge, I gave him the cocaine/stolen property, etc., but he didn’t pay me.”
“ Judge, I gave the professor money for an A, but still got a C.”

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

So boosters will still throw $ around to get the best players they can for their teams via NIL.

Just like always

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, direct payment from universities to student athletes will destroy US higher education as we know it.

Unlike funneling kids into useless majors which render them unemployable, and saddling them with unpayable debt.

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

This might be a good thing. If it is the wild west and kids are getting screwed, some structure may well be tolerated by the courts because the "problem" required it.

For example, NIL funding entities could be registered with the NCAA and be an "open book" to prevent fraudulent inducements to sign/commit. I suspect the IRS would not mind that either. In exchange for that regulatory oversight... certain limits are imposed. All contracts must be a minimum of 2 years and bind the student to that university for the duration.

I think they create a model of student athlete paid degree protocol:

1. Optional. Can choose current system or degree maximizing system model.
2. The degree maximizing system model:
a. 3 years to get an associates degree from a university, 3 years of eligibility. Once degree is received, free to transfer without restriction--whether it is 2 years or 3 years. Contract 1.
b. remainder of 5 years to get bachelor's degree... the other 2 or 3 years. Contract 2.
c. For any student athlete with a bachelor's after 4 years... they get a 5th year and another opportunity to do a Contract 3.

Therefore... maximum of three contracts and maximum of 5 years of playing over 5 years.

Why should NYE auto dealers have to register with anyone to hire Eddie Lampkin to be a spokesperson.
If NYE doesn’t keep up the bargain, Eddie can sue.
Eddie can hire a lawyer/agent to negotiate his deals. The players want to be treated as adult workers, then it should be done 100%.

 

[sufandu]

According to the Supreme Court it's name, image, and likeness.

NCAA v. Alston

In January of 2021, as the coronavirus pandemic reached its peak in the United States, Alabama Crimson Tide football coach Nick Saban won his seventh national collegiate championship.Alex Scarborough,

harvardlawreview.org

Whatever. You're better than this. We all know that what exists now isn't name/image/likeness. It isn't what was intended even if it is exactly what common sense predicted. It's pay for play.