Ball Screen Rolls

[gedneyatthe3]

Longtime lurker, seldom post.

This team will be perfectly fine. But, I can't be the only one wondering why we never pass to the roll off the high ball screen, if only to allow better drive lanes? Of course bigs that can catch better would help.

 

[djcon57]

Longtime lurker, seldom post.

This team will be perfectly fine. But, I can't be the only one wondering why we never pass to the roll off the high ball screen, if only to allow better drive lanes? Of course bigs that can catch better would help.

Better yet, let's STOP RUNNING THEM WITH KEITA. No one wants to pass to him, he's wide open and Ennis ends up with two guys on him. It's ridiculous.

 

[Coach Orange]

Though not exactly targeted at your question, I posted some thoughts in this thread earlier today that may provide some insight:

http://syracusefan.com/threads/one-problem-in-the-last-stretch-of-games.70708/

More directly to your question, though, often Ennis can't see the screener roll because of the hard-hedging and doubles he is facing coming off of the ball screen. Without several options built into the play to force defensive decisions, once that roll is missed, the opportunity is lost.

 

[gedneyatthe3]

Coach Orange, wonderful analysis and over my CYO coach pay scale. Just frustrating because the spacing would improve dramatically if used a couple of times a game even.

 

[NineOneSeven]

Running the ball screen with Keita is the dumbest thing I've ever seen. It can't be justified. It's just awful.

Purpose of a high ball screen
1. The screener rolls to the hoop
2. The screener pops for a jumper
3. The guy who gets screened rubs off and makes an offensive move

NONE of these are threats. Why you ask? 1 and 2 are obvious. Number 3? Because 1 and 2 have no chance of happening, defenders use over exaggerated hedges of the screens or just double up on the ball handler (Ennis).

Not only that, Keita gets happy feet and gets called for moving screens more than anyone I can remember.

It's just seriously dumb gameplan.

 

[Madbiker]

Running the ball screen with Keita is the dumbest thing I've ever seen. It can't be justified. It's just awful.

Purpose of a high ball screen
1. The screener rolls to the hoop
2. The screener pops for a jumper
3. The guy who gets screened rubs off and makes an offensive move

NONE of these are threats. Why you ask? 1 and 2 are obvious. Number 3? Because 1 and 2 have no chance of happening, defenders use over exaggerated hedges of the screens or just double up on the ball handler (Ennis).

Not only that, Keita gets happy feet and gets called for moving screens more than anyone I can remember.

It's just seriously dumb gameplan.

Great post!

 

[longislandcuse]

A) We run them with Keita which is maddening.

B) I honestly don't think Ennis is very good at the pick and roll. He's too safe and doesn't have the quick reflex/vision to make the split second, tight passes needed for the easy bucket off the roll.

 

[NineOneSeven]

A) We run them with Keita which is maddening.

B) I honestly don't think Ennis is very good at the pick and roll. He's too safe and doesn't have the length/height/vision to make the split second, tight passes needed for the easy bucket off the roll.

I said earlier in the season he missed Rak a bunch. Rak is often opened on the roll. Sometimes he gets it (duke game and VA game) but not enough.

 

[Coach Orange]

Coach Orange, wonderful analysis and over my CYO coach pay scale. Just frustrating because the spacing would improve dramatically if used a couple of times a game even.

Running the ball screen with Keita is the dumbest thing I've ever seen. It can't be justified. It's just awful.

Purpose of a high ball screen
1. The screener rolls to the hoop
2. The screener pops for a jumper
3. The guy who gets screened rubs off and makes an offensive move

NONE of these are threats. Why you ask? 1 and 2 are obvious. Number 3? Because 1 and 2 have no chance of happening, defenders use over exaggerated hedges of the screens or just double up on the ball handler (Ennis).

Not only that, Keita gets happy feet and gets called for moving screens more than anyone I can remember.

It's just seriously dumb gameplan.

No argument on the point. Notice that, in my threads about the ball-screen offense, I never use BMK (that I can remember anyway) as the player setting the ball screens.

 

[Coach Orange]

I said earlier in the season he missed Rak a bunch. Rak is often opened on the roll. Sometimes he gets it (duke game and VA game) but not enough.

Keep in mind that what looks open to us watching on TV or from the stands isn't always what Ennis can see with two players in his face because the defense has hard-hedged/trapped. Without options built into our ball screens to relieve that pressure, Ennis is being asked to do too much.

Also, most teams have done a great job rotating another defender into the paint to eliminate the pass to the rolling player. That pass is a difficult one to complete routinely when teams rotate--the window to squeeze that pass in is closed fast--especially when the defense knows it is the only play it has to take away other than Ennis driving off the screen.

 

[mickbird44]

Also helps when the screener rolls so he can see the ball... seems like about a 3rd of the time our screener rolls in the wrong direction and misses the window of opportunity for the open entry pass.

 

[Coach Orange]

A) We run them with Keita which is maddening.

B) I honestly don't think Ennis is very good at the pick and roll. He's too safe and doesn't have the quick reflex/vision to make the split second, tight passes needed for the easy bucket off the roll.

Ennis is fine running the ball screens. Many of his "late game heroics" have come off of the ball screen.

Keep in mind that Ennis is a freshman still learning the game at this level. On top of that, even Chris Paul would struggle running ball screens successfully when there are no second and third options built into the attack to make defenses pay for hard-hedging/trapping. :noidea:

 

[Millhouse]

Better yet, let's STOP RUNNING THEM WITH KEITA. No one wants to pass to him, he's wide open and Ennis ends up with two guys on him. It's ridiculous.

Use of caps is essential here. 100% agree

 

[longislandcuse]

Ennis is fine running the ball screens. Many of his "late game heroics" have come off of the ball screen.

Keep in mind that Ennis is a freshman still learning the game at this level. On top of that, even Chris Paul would struggle running ball screens successfully when there are no second and third options built into the attack to make defenses pay for hard-hedging/trapping. :noidea:

I just think he's too safe, especially early and midway into games. He doesn't risk passes that you need to risk for easy buckets.

Our offensive sets are middle school simplistic and everyone just stands around while we iso or play a 2 man game. I agree with you there.

 

[Coach Orange]

I just think he's too safe, especially early and midway into games. He doesn't risk passes that you need to risk for easy buckets.

Our offensive sets are middle school simplistic and everyone just stands around while we iso or play a 2 man game. I agree with you there.

I agree with you about Tyler--at times he is cautious to a fault. However, to be fair, his cautious approach probably keeps the team in more games than it costs them.

The team's sets have become more and more isolation-based over the last several years. The squad runs an initial entry that looks like our old plays, but then we break down into one-on-one play if that primary look fails. I'm not sure why this is.

 

[Shermthegeneral]

I believe we used to run a screen the screener play that alleviated some of the over play by the screeners man. Or they should fake screen and have big cut back to the rim. I said this in another thread, our offense is very predictable and teams have adjusted to it and our fast break is non existent because Tyler chooses to slow it down 99% of the time. Predictable half court and fast break equals low scoring games with a bunch of L's sprinkled on top.

 

[Cheriehoop]

A) We run them with Keita which is maddening.

B) I honestly don't think Ennis is very good at the pick and roll. He's too safe and doesn't have the quick reflex/vision to make the split second, tight passes needed for the easy bucket off the roll.

I agree - not to be critical but effective high screens require good timing and we don't have it. Many times Ennis has already taken off and doesn't wait till the screen is set or is waiting for it to come- not that we set great screens in the first place. Using a big guy like Keita, Christmas also brings a big guy up top defending them which doesn't help Ennis' vision. Our high screens are so obvious wish Christmas would slip it (fake it) and then cut hard to the basket before his defender reacts while Fair, Cooney etc are spread out- then there would be passing, cutting options too.

Right before Grant got hurt they started using him to set the high screens - which could be very effective if he can make some 8-10 footers with some consistency and improve his ball handling. In past years we used to always be able to set some effective back picks for dunks for our back line players - haven't really seen much of that this year. Of course all this is easier said than done - physical switching defenses have lots to say about executing them and put us in those crazy block/charge call situations. Tough for some of our guys to catch and drive off screens when their handles are pretty shaky.

 

[longislandcuse]

We could REALLY use a pick n pop type player.

 

[Gabjon]

I think we should run pick and roll with Ennis and CJ. First teams will think twice about doubling off of CJ and secondly CJ's mid-range J is his best attribute and it will to open J's. Cooney spotting up at the first rotation spot encase the opponent doubles and rotates.

 

[SoBeCuse]

Ennis is fine running the ball screens. Many of his "late game heroics" have come off of the ball screen.

Keep in mind that Ennis is a freshman still learning the game at this level. On top of that, even Chris Paul would struggle running ball screens successfully when there are no second and third options built into the attack to make defenses pay for hard-hedging/trapping. :noidea:

Why is this? Is the staff not aware of this? Are they not considering implementing these other options which are fairly basic, no? Or are the players not executing directions?

 

[Coach Orange]

Why is this? Is the staff not aware of this? Are they not considering implementing these other options which are fairly basic, no? Or are the players not executing directions?

If it was just one game where these options were not a part of the offense, I would say that the responsibility likely falls on the players. Several games in a row, though? That seems to be more than just a lack of players executing.

Honestly, I wish I knew the answer to your questions. I have to assume that the staff is trying to find ways to get the players easier looks. However, Boeheim often spews the stock "We have to get more movement" answer when asked about the offensive struggles. That answer makes it sound like he expects players to do this on their own.

My thought is that options need to be clearly designed and drilled so that players know exactly how to attack the myriad of ways defenses try to stop an offensive set. In other words, coaches can inject more player movement by design. They can also confuse defenses by running a variety of second and third options off of the same ball-screen set.

 

[AZOrange]

If it was just one game where these options were not a part of the offense, I would say that the responsibility likely falls on the players. Several games in a row, though? That seems to be more than just a lack of players executing.

Honestly, I wish I knew the answer to your questions. I have to assume that the staff is trying to find ways to get the players easier looks. However, Boeheim often spews the stock "We have to get more movement" answer when asked about the offensive struggles. That answer makes it sound like he expects players to do this on their own.

My thought is that options need to be clearly designed and drilled so that players know exactly how to attack the myriad of ways defenses try to stop an offensive set. In other words, coaches can inject more player movement by design. They can also confuse defenses by running a variety of second and third options off of the same ball-screen set.

If Keita is going to be in the game, we need to run more high low sets at the top of the key. He's pretty good there.

 

[Coach Orange]

If Keita is going to be in the game, we need to run more high low sets at the top of the key. He's pretty good there.

Agreed. BMK is not a ball-screen player. He would work better in high-low or, perhaps, open-post offenses.

 

[OttoMets]

A) We run them with Keita which is maddening.

B) I honestly don't think Ennis is very good at the pick and roll. He's too safe and doesn't have the quick reflex/vision to make the split second, tight passes needed for the easy bucket off the roll.

I agree. He just doesn't see it well.