Basketball program needs a fresh set of eyes

[longislandcuse]

SU hoops is the biggest cash cow in college hoops because of all the home games we play. We could afford to pay Hopkins 1 million a year to go away if Wildhack wanted to.

Then who are these people saying we can only afford bargain basement coaches. I don't understand that at all. We're a big time program in the ACC. If we can't pony up for a FB and BB head coach then what are we even doing?

 

[RF2044]

Honestly, it's JB who has lost his touch as as recruiter. He doesn't have the energy (naturally) he once had. He doesn't get out nearly as much as he once did. He's lost his edge. I'm sure he'd be the first to admit that. Francis has brought up this topic many times on his podcast.

Yet the staff seemed to have done a good job of putting together a good team this year through some good recruiting. The pieces seemed to be in place. But they overlooked the lack of a quality point guard. So vital.

At this stage, just don't see how they rectify that.

I don't think it is that at all--I think he is finally just a lame duck, and coaches can use that against us on the recruiting trail for the first time. It was never a factor before, whereas now it is. "If you go there, the HOF coach will only be there for one season to coach you..."

 

[Alsacs]

I don't think it is that at all--I think he is finally just a lame duck, and coaches can use that against us on the recruiting trail for the first time. It was never a factor before, whereas now it is. "If you go there, the HOF coach will only be there for one season to coach you..."

I love ya RF but if you listen to Francis podcast we don't go after kids outside of the I-95 corridor. We had to be talked into even recruiting Michael Porter Jr. And he never really considered us because of how halfassed we recruited him.
We don't recruit nationally which for a brand like Syracuse doesn't make sense. I-95 and Canada.

 

[Ward]

I love ya RF but if you listen to Francis podcast we don't go after kids outside of the I-95 corridor. We had to be talked into even recruiting Michael Porter Jr. And he never really considered us because of how halfassed we recruited him.
We don't recruit nationally which for a brand like Syracuse doesn't make sense. I-95 and Canada.

Exactly, and for us to completely whiff on much of the high end talent this year in our limited recruiting region should set off alarm bells.

People keep trying to shrug off the disappointing 2017 class as one of those "welp quade flipped late - it happens" but that's not being honest. We missed on Richards, Lonnie, Randolph, Bamba isn't even considering us, we seemed to have fallen out of the race for Diallo and didn't give Washington or Coleman a legit recruitment. I mean we had Lonnie Walker, a 5 star wing from PA and our hot bed Team Final, say in an interview he hadn't heard from the staff in awhile and had no clue if they were even going to come watch him during the live period. That's a probable McD AA who plays our biggest position of need and some say grew up an SU fan saying a month or two before his decision that he hasn't heard from the staff and isn't sure if they'll come visit him when coaches are out seeing their big priorities.

As a note to be clear I'm VERY happy and excited for Brisset and Sidibe. Think both will be great pieces for us but for them to be our only 2 signings in a year where we need a huge class and had all that high end talent in our wheelhouse areas is a disappointment.

 

[dasher]

I love ya RF but if you listen to Francis podcast we don't go after kids outside of the I-95 corridor. We had to be talked into even recruiting Michael Porter Jr. And he never really considered us because of how halfassed we recruited him.
We don't recruit nationally which for a brand like Syracuse doesn't make sense. I-95 and Canada.

Michael Porter Jr was never coming here. That was fool's gold and the coaches knew that. As for the bigger point, yes, we should recruit nationally.

 

[RF2044]

I love ya RF but if you listen to Francis podcast we don't go after kids outside of the I-95 corridor. We had to be talked into even recruiting Michael Porter Jr. And he never really considered us because of how halfassed we recruited him.
We don't recruit nationally which for a brand like Syracuse doesn't make sense. I-95 and Canada.

Oh, I agree we should recruit more nationally and not restrict ourselves to the northeast / east coast. But that is fundamentally a different thing [i.e., JB making the conscientious choice to recruit closer to home] than him losing it, as we've seen with the class of 2017. Most of the players we pursued were from a geographic proximity very close to CNY--there were a ton of good players right in JBs sweet spot, but we didn't land them.

What do you attribute the 2017 success [or lack thereof] to? What has changed?

 

[Alsacs]

Oh, I agree we should recruit more nationally and not restrict ourselves to the northeast / east coast. But that is fundamentally a different thing [i.e., JB making the conscientious choice to recruit closer to home] than him losing it, as we've seen with the class of 2017.

What do you attribute the 2017 success [or lack thereof] to? What has changed?

GMac being the lead recruiter over Mike Hopkins. I think that is the biggest reason for our struggle this cycle. The 2 commits we got were primary recruited by Autry according to Francis stats.

 

[Killdozer]

Your post above was fair but JB has 5 Final Fours 1987, 1996, 2003, 2013, 2016.

Holy crap...I forgot about that loss to Michigan! My bad

 

[jdubs30]

Teams go through and ups and downs in recruiting cycles - it happens to everyone except Calipari, Roy Williams, and Coach K. I agree that JB seems to have lost his edge, but I don't think the cupboard is bare; even next year.

 

[jdubs30]

Teams go through and ups and downs in recruiting cycles - it happens to everyone except Calipari, Roy Williams, and Coach K. I agree that JB seems to have lost his edge, but I don't think the cupboard is bare; even next year.

 

[dasher]

Teams go through and ups and downs in recruiting cycles - it happens to everyone except Calipari, Roy Williams, and Coach K. I agree that JB seems to have lost his edge, but I don't think the cupboard is bare; even next year.

you can say that again

 

[Alsacs]

you can say that again

How the cupboard not bare?
We have to hope Lydon and Battle both stay.
We have no guard commits yet for 2017. The only guards with eligibility for 2017 are Howard and Battle.
Thompson will be a stud next year but beyond him no else on the roster this year is a lock to be back.
We are in trouble right now.

 

[dasher]

How the cupboard not bare?
We have to hope Lydon and Battle both stay.
We have no guard commits yet for 2017. The only guards with eligibility for 2017 are Howard and Battle.
Thompson will be a stud next year but beyond him no else on the roster this year is a lock to be back.
We are in trouble right now.

Well, it's a good thing that next season isn't starting right now. No one knows what these kids will do but battle sure doesn't look like a pro to me. Lydon is good. He could go but I have heard he really likes Syracuse and the college experience. And as much as others will cringe at this, we have to hit the 5th year market. hopefully we will hit a home run this time. If lydon, Battle , Thompson are back. That is a very good start. And I'm going with that assumption until I hear different.

 

[pearl31]

Teams go through and ups and downs in recruiting cycles - it happens to everyone except Calipari, Roy Williams, and Coach K. I agree that JB seems to have lost his edge, but I don't think the cupboard is bare; even next year.

agree and I would even argue it has happened to Williams as well - their last few classes haven't been stellar - certainly good enough but not on the level of UK/duke/KU/'zona/ucla etc

 

[longislandcuse]

Teams go through and ups and downs in recruiting cycles - it happens to everyone except Calipari, Roy Williams, and Coach K. I agree that JB seems to have lost his edge, but I don't think the cupboard is bare; even next year.

Roy Williams doesn't even recruit on that level. He recruits more on our level but somehow doesn't have players jumping to the NBA the second they pop up on a draft board.

 

[NKR1978]

Roy Williams doesn't even recruit on that level. He recruits more on our level but somehow doesn't have players jumping to the NBA the second they pop up on a draft board.

Has any program had as many head scratching early entrees as we have? Any time one of our kids gets hot they go. We were worried about CJ in 2013. Really good college player, but the fact that we had to worry about him is crazy. What did Jerami Grant do to warrant leaving early that 30 other kids across the country don't do every year?

 

[longislandcuse]

Has any program had as many head scratching early entrees as we have? Any time one of our kids gets hot they go. We were worried about CJ in 2013. Really good college player, but the fact that we had to worry about him is crazy. What did Jerami Grant do to warrant leaving early that 30 other kids across the country don't do every year?

Exactly! ...and I don't fault anyone for leaving early. I root for them all in the pros and hold zero grudges because of a bad spot them bolting to be a mid-late first round pick put us in, but it's seriously bizarre.

Meanwhile UNC has an upperclassmen Marcus Paige leading them to the Championship game and an armada of big men who never seem to want to leave.

 

[jdubs30]

Has any program had as many head scratching early entrees as we have? Any time one of our kids gets hot they go. We were worried about CJ in 2013. Really good college player, but the fact that we had to worry about him is crazy. What did Jerami Grant do to warrant leaving early that 30 other kids across the country don't do every year?

It's actually simple and ironic if you think about it (Ennis is the only one who doesn't fit into my theory):

- JB recruits to the zone. What does that mean? Long wingspans, height, springy athletes.
- What does the NBA care about? Aside from skill, MEASURABLES AND POTENTIAL. Our players are oozing with NBA potential based on who JB is recruiting.

Think about it - Waiters, MCW, McCullough, Grant - all elite athletes with long arms and superior jumping ability. Hell, even Ennis has a big wingspan for his size. Mali wasn't as elite of an athlete as the others, but he had crazy long arms and huge hands.

The NBA loves 19 year olds who exhibit the atheleticism and height our players have - why do we have them? Because they are perfect for the zone. Joel Berry, Marcus Paige, Denzel Valentine, etc. don't fit into the zone mold (maybe Paige does). Therefore they lack the extra measurable that NBA teams want to see.

Of course I'm not saying that every recruit we get fits into that mold, but I think that's what it stems from. Remember people going crazy because JB "recruits to the zone" instead of players that fit offensively? This is a by product of it. What JB wants in the zone defensively from players are the same traits that NBA teams look for in draft picks. We don't recruit 6'0 PG's (Monte Morris), we prefer longer, taller PGs a la MCW, Ennis, Howard, etc. - this is the also the same type of PG that most NBA teams are looking for. Jalen Adams is a really good college player for UConn - does he fit what JB wants in a PG? Probably not. Will he leave early for the NBA? Probably not.

Listen to opposing coaches talk about us - without a doubt one of the first words they'll talk about is our length and our athletes - which is coincidentally, exactly what NBA teams want

 

[longislandcuse]

It's actually simple and ironic if you think about it (Ennis is the only one who doesn't fit into my theory):

- JB recruits to the zone. What does that mean? Long wingspans, height, springy athletes.
- What does the NBA care about? Aside from skill, MEASURABLES AND POTENTIAL. Our players are oozing with NBA potential based on who JB is recruiting.

Think about it - Waiters, MCW, McCullough, Grant - all elite athletes with long arms and superior jumping ability. Hell, even Ennis has a big wingspan for his size. Mali wasn't as elite of an athlete as the others, but he had crazy long arms and huge hands.

The NBA loves 19 year olds who exhibit the atheleticism and height our players have - why do we have them? Because they are perfect for the zone. Joel Berry, Marcus Paige, Denzel Valentine, etc. don't fit into the zone mold (maybe Paige does). Therefore they lack the extra measurable that NBA teams want to see.

Of course I'm not saying that every recruit we get fits into that mold, but I think that's what it stems from. Remember people going crazy because JB "recruits to the zone" instead of players that fit offensively? This is a by product of it. What JB wants in the zone defensively from players are the same traits that NBA teams look for in draft picks. We don't recruit 6'0 PG's (Monte Morris), we prefer longer, taller PGs a la MCW, Ennis, Howard, etc. - this is the also the same type of PG that most NBA teams are looking for. Jalen Adams is a really good college player for UConn - does he fit what JB wants in a PG? Probably not. Will he leave early for the NBA? Probably not.

Listen to opposing coaches talk about us - without a doubt one of the first words they'll talk about is our length and our athletes - which is coincidentally, exactly what NBA teams want

I actually love that. Hate the zone 24/7 with nothing else but love the size and athleticism we recruit.

...but somehow we've devolved into bringing in a sub 6'0 pg as a 5th year transfer and pinned all our hopes on Ulis 2.0. Makes zero sense what we're trying to do lately.

Ask anyone who follows recruiting closely and they will point to multiple decisions in the past few years that would have prevented us from being in this position and in a tsunami of bad decision making, we chose the wrong door every time.

 

[NKR1978]

It's actually simple and ironic if you think about it (Ennis is the only one who doesn't fit into my theory):

- JB recruits to the zone. What does that mean? Long wingspans, height, springy athletes.
- What does the NBA care about? Aside from skill, MEASURABLES AND POTENTIAL. Our players are oozing with NBA potential based on who JB is recruiting.

Think about it - Waiters, MCW, McCullough, Grant - all elite athletes with long arms and superior jumping ability. Hell, even Ennis has a big wingspan for his size. Mali wasn't as elite of an athlete as the others, but he had crazy long arms and huge hands.

The NBA loves 19 year olds who exhibit the atheleticism and height our players have - why do we have them? Because they are perfect for the zone. Joel Berry, Marcus Paige, Denzel Valentine, etc. don't fit into the zone mold (maybe Paige does). Therefore they lack the extra measurable that NBA teams want to see.

Of course I'm not saying that every recruit we get fits into that mold, but I think that's what it stems from. Remember people going crazy because JB "recruits to the zone" instead of players that fit offensively? This is a by product of it. What JB wants in the zone defensively from players are the same traits that NBA teams look for in draft picks. We don't recruit 6'0 PG's (Monte Morris), we prefer longer, taller PGs a la MCW, Ennis, Howard, etc. - this is the also the same type of PG that most NBA teams are looking for. Jalen Adams is a really good college player for UConn - does he fit what JB wants in a PG? Probably not. Will he leave early for the NBA? Probably not.

Listen to opposing coaches talk about us - without a doubt one of the first words they'll talk about is our length and our athletes - which is coincidentally, exactly what NBA teams want

This is really incredible analysis that I don't think has been brought up here before. Or I've definitely missed it.

And your post deserves its own thread, because it might get buried here.

 

[realorange]

I'm just bummed out that I wasted money to go see this team at UNC in January. Im really not looking forward to my wife's gloating (UNC alum).

I'll be there to enjoy the 'Cuse having their act together to get Tar Butts a good game.

 

[SoBeCuse]

It's actually simple and ironic if you think about it (Ennis is the only one who doesn't fit into my theory):

- JB recruits to the zone. What does that mean? Long wingspans, height, springy athletes.
- What does the NBA care about? Aside from skill, MEASURABLES AND POTENTIAL. Our players are oozing with NBA potential based on who JB is recruiting.

Think about it - Waiters, MCW, McCullough, Grant - all elite athletes with long arms and superior jumping ability. Hell, even Ennis has a big wingspan for his size. Mali wasn't as elite of an athlete as the others, but he had crazy long arms and huge hands.

The NBA loves 19 year olds who exhibit the atheleticism and height our players have - why do we have them? Because they are perfect for the zone. Joel Berry, Marcus Paige, Denzel Valentine, etc. don't fit into the zone mold (maybe Paige does). Therefore they lack the extra measurable that NBA teams want to see.

Of course I'm not saying that every recruit we get fits into that mold, but I think that's what it stems from. Remember people going crazy because JB "recruits to the zone" instead of players that fit offensively? This is a by product of it. What JB wants in the zone defensively from players are the same traits that NBA teams look for in draft picks. We don't recruit 6'0 PG's (Monte Morris), we prefer longer, taller PGs a la MCW, Ennis, Howard, etc. - this is the also the same type of PG that most NBA teams are looking for. Jalen Adams is a really good college player for UConn - does he fit what JB wants in a PG? Probably not. Will he leave early for the NBA? Probably not.

Listen to opposing coaches talk about us - without a doubt one of the first words they'll talk about is our length and our athletes - which is coincidentally, exactly what NBA teams want

This is a pretty good theory I think. Those measurables are certainly a factor. I think it is a perfect storm for our early entries. They get some exposure and publicity. They are decent prospects but not great ones. They strike while it is hot in terms of being a weak draft or whatever. Maybe they love Syracuse and the coaches and maybe they don't. Maybe they hate the weather maybe they don't. Who knows but they are gone. The NBA will take chances on some of our athlete projects beacuse of those measurable like you say and hope they develop and/or unlearn bad habits. No big deal to spend a late first or second round pick on a project. The problem is that JB hasn't been playing the big boy game well enough in terms of reloading. Duke, UK, Arizona, UCLA, Louisville, even Indiana seem to be doing it well. It is clear we just aren't at that level of recruiting now. That seems fact now and we might as well accept it. You can't have classes like 2013. Is Roberson a bust now? Maybe. All those guys are gone or busts. BJ is gone so that is another miss regardless of what he is doing at LaSalle. Whiffing on Kaleb Joseph was a HUGE mistake. It's been well chronicled lately how important good guard play especially with being in the ACC now. We know about Monte Morris and of course going all in on Green without any plan B. Another big mistake.

I think the staff needs to reboot and reevaluate what they are looking for and how they are going about things. These 6'4-6'6 combos being converted into PGs is playing with fire also as we have seen. There aren't too many Wall, Westbrook, even Derrick Roses in his prime and we don't get those guys. MCW was a gem of a find I guess but even he struggles with faster and quicker guys. Frank Howard's bball IQ is subpar and his athleticism/speed is decent but nothing elite. We have too many of these lanky types who don't move that well, imo. Certainly they exposed against athletes of their caliber and better which is almost every team these days it seems. Boeheim's simplistic offense depends on getting into paint and making a play. Howard is really struggling in that department. Gillon has more speed but he is making bad decisions. White was brought it to replace Malachi's shooting but he is doing too much. He's limited. We have some major guard problems. JB did not expect it to be such a struggle from the PG position but maybe they just aren't who the staff thought they were going to be. Another bad trend it seems with evaluating perhaps. I don't see Battle being able to play PG at all. These days if you don't have great talent around those positions teams can't hold steady and stay really good like UNC and Villanova while waiting for those guys to develop.

It also seems that if players come in without proper fundamentals and bball IQ then it isn't being taught or reinforced here. It's almost just expected and if you don't get it from a good high school basketball background/program then oh well. Also, why would any truly ELITE player want to come here and play zone 100% of the time? That certainly doesn't prepare you for the NBA. The Dome is dated, needs a makeover, and is obviously a morgue except for some big games beyond Jan. Just my $.02. It is what it is now but I sure hope for BIG changes in the near future which could be really refreshing.

 

[pearl31]

Exactly! ...and I don't fault anyone for leaving early. I root for them all in the pros and hold zero grudges because of a bad spot them bolting to be a mid-late first round pick put us in, but it's seriously bizarre.

Meanwhile UNC has an upperclassmen Marcus Paige leading them to the Championship game and an armada of big men who never seem to want to leave.

yep and Bryce Johnson last year Justin Jackson this year

 

[Cusefan0307]

Lol. We'll see. Highly doubt "ironclad."

This is going to be an unpopular post for the take Hopkins/GMac/Autry to the stake crowd. The basketball program has been very successful. There's a large group of influential alumni and donors that are very loyal to JB and are in Hopkins corner. I get the frustration that we stink, but there's a lot that goes into hiring coaches and a lot of that is making your most loyal supporters happy. Hopkins is going to get a shot. It may work out, it may not. We have no evidence. I think people are missing the entire picture when it comes to replacing JB here.

Also getting Jay Wright or Shaka smart doesn't guarantee us anything. Wright had a horrible stretch from 2010-2013. Two losing seasons and no tournaments. He might be worse than JB here, we don't know. JB had a much higher winning percentage than Wright at this point in his career.

 

[Ish88888]

It's actually simple and ironic if you think about it (Ennis is the only one who doesn't fit into my theory):

- JB recruits to the zone. What does that mean? Long wingspans, height, springy athletes.
- What does the NBA care about? Aside from skill, MEASURABLES AND POTENTIAL. Our players are oozing with NBA potential based on who JB is recruiting.

Think about it - Waiters, MCW, McCullough, Grant - all elite athletes with long arms and superior jumping ability. Hell, even Ennis has a big wingspan for his size. Mali wasn't as elite of an athlete as the others, but he had crazy long arms and huge hands.

The NBA loves 19 year olds who exhibit the atheleticism and height our players have - why do we have them? Because they are perfect for the zone. Joel Berry, Marcus Paige, Denzel Valentine, etc. don't fit into the zone mold (maybe Paige does). Therefore they lack the extra measurable that NBA teams want to see.

Of course I'm not saying that every recruit we get fits into that mold, but I think that's what it stems from. Remember people going crazy because JB "recruits to the zone" instead of players that fit offensively? This is a by product of it. What JB wants in the zone defensively from players are the same traits that NBA teams look for in draft picks. We don't recruit 6'0 PG's (Monte Morris), we prefer longer, taller PGs a la MCW, Ennis, Howard, etc. - this is the also the same type of PG that most NBA teams are looking for. Jalen Adams is a really good college player for UConn - does he fit what JB wants in a PG? Probably not. Will he leave early for the NBA? Probably not.

Listen to opposing coaches talk about us - without a doubt one of the first words they'll talk about is our length and our athletes - which is coincidentally, exactly what NBA teams want

The NBA loves all of our "zone" measurable as long as they have am offensive game. Most NBA execs dont care about zone defense skills.