Big vs Fast

[money3189]

Good luck with that - it is now a board mantra.

lol they just dont get it no matter how much you explain it. They dont want the typical big slow lineman.

 

[IthacaBarrel]

lol they just dont get it no matter how much you explain it. They dont want the typical big slow lineman.

In addition every time a team has success running the ball on Syracuse it’s always because the lineman aren’t big enough! Big lines get shredded too and our smaller athletic lines has stuffed the run game on team too. It’s just so dumb.

I can show you big slow no twitch lineman that our 290 all day at the D3 level if that’s what we want. They went to this scheme because they thought they could recruit for it and people still bitch because we can’t get the d lineman that the staff already admitted they have a tough time getting!!

I know it’s all because Dino can’t recruit! Yada yada yada. Syracuse tough town tough weather marginal facilities marginal NIL, don’t win much either. Go try and sell that.

 

[money3189]

In addition every time a team has success running the ball on Syracuse it’s always because the lineman aren’t big enough! Big lines get shredded too and our smaller athletic lines has stuffed the run game on team too. It’s just so dumb.

"Size is the reason we lost". Its the most casual thing you can say when watching a game.

 

[cusefan88]

"Size is the reason we lost". Its the most casual thing you can say when watching a game.

The combination of losing Lockett and then playing dominate running teams makes the DL thing overblown. Now going in 2023 there's a fairly decent rotation (Lockett, Ingraham, Darton, Fuentes, and maybe Bassette). 5 scheme fits should make things better in the second half of the season.

 

[money3189]

The combination of losing Lockett and then playing dominate running teams makes the DL thing overblown. Now going in 2023 there's a fairly decent rotation (Lockett, Ingraham, Darton, Fuentes, and maybe Bassette). 5 scheme fits should make things better in the second half of the season.

Right on. This will be the deepest line SU's had in awhile.

 

[Cusefan69]

Honestly our dline and LBs, if healthy will be some of the best in the ACC next year and for dline I am including our DEs. Think about what Rocky is inheriting. Wax, Thompson, Lowery, Bailey, Lockett, Chase Simmons, Brick schithouse Perry, Geer (is going to be special), Jaquez (also going to be special), Caleb, the top 150 DT transfer from Bama to name most. I mean really our front 7 are going to be serious. They will be so good it will be an incremental benefit to our DBs.

 

[baggerbob]

Honestly our dline and LBs, if healthy will be some of the best in the ACC next year and for dline I am including our DEs. Think about what Rocky is inheriting. Wax, Thompson, Lowery, Bailey, Lockett, Chase Simmons, Brick schithouse Perry, Geer (is going to be special), Jaquez (also going to be special), Caleb, the top 150 DT transfer from Bama to name most. I mean really our front 7 are going to be serious. They will be so good it will be an incremental benefit to our DBs.

6-1 and 280 and people would say the guy is too small. But that is Aaron Donald the best defensive lineman in the NFL.

 

[shu 49]

One of the things that gets silly around here is the focus on height/weight when the staff is prioritizing athleticism. Obviously one is easily quantifiable and is posted on the official roster sheet - the other is not.

Not saying it will change, but man a pause before the "we need beefier DL post" x 100 would be awesome

I know I am one of the need bigger guys guys. My whole point is that getting hit by 320 to 340 lb guys over and over even for an ultra athletic 260 is gonna end bad bye the end of season. Know add a double team to that 260 llber and over time that kid is gonna get hurt. It's not that I want all of them bigger but against power teams I would like some guys in middle who can stop being pushed back. Clog middle and let backers make play at Los instead of 5 yrd gains. We just need the option to put bigger guys in.

 

[CbusCuse]

"Size is the reason we lost". Its the most casual thing you can say when watching a game.

The thing is that is not incorrect. I think our DL was solid this year but when they did get beat it was against the good, big, strong running teams in the middle to end of the year. They were good at running but we can stop them better with added size.
I feel like you assume everybody is saying we just want space eaters. Maybe some are but I’m not in that boat. We obviously don’t want size just for the sake of size. We were not optimal weight this year. We know they have to be explosive players in there. Just as you said above, they want 260-280 along the DL. And I’m guessing the 280 is more likely up the middle. I love Darton and he’s a beast at 260 and that is his optimal weight but he is on the very low end of size up the middle. I’d prefer to have a heavier guy there, especially in early downs when teams want to run power up the middle. He played too many snaps this year. For as good as we all think he was he had 0 sacks and only 4 TFL’s. I’m sure he had quite a few tackles for minimal gain though. Would love to see what he could do subbing in fresh.

Okechukwu was real solid at one DE spot and has good size and explosion at 268 lbs. thank god he stayed healthy because we realy did’nt have another player right now with that combination of mass and explosion at the DE position.

But the other DE spot we played undersized at all year. Linton had a lot of snaps at 219 lbs! Geer had a lot at 233 lbs. he’s going to be good but needs to get bigger. Guys this size are going to make plays but also get pushed around and beat for big plays on other downs.

Moving on to 2023, I like our group more as in the middle as we add Ibrahim at 290 and get Lockett back at 270. We return Okechuckwu at one DE spot and I think his health and availability will be the most important factor all year. Hope we get to see him play all year. And at the other DE we have many young guys who will have hopefully added good weight and have more experience. Then we bring in Perry and other solid sized young players that can be added to the mix. Lots more depth.

 

[CbusCuse]

I’ll add that when we are productive on offense and get a lead that really helps our defense a lot as we really shine when teams are forced to pass it. Or at least forced to not run it up the gut. Our Offense stalled out a bit after the mid point in the season mostly due to Shrader's health.

 

[shu 49]

6-1 and 280 and people would say the guy is too small. But that is Aaron Donald the best defensive lineman in the NFL.

Yeah but he has probably the best cross punch I have ever seen. He literally moves 340 lb pros sideways with one shoulder punch. He is amazing. Wish we could get that type.

 

[money3189]

The thing is that is not incorrect. I think our DL was solid this year but when they did get beat it was against the good, big, strong running teams in the middle to end of the year. They were good at running but we can stop them better with added size.
I feel like you assume everybody is saying we just want space eaters. Maybe some are but I’m not in that boat. We obviously don’t want size just for the sake of size. We were not optimal weight this year. We know they have to be explosive players in there. Just as you said above, they want 260-280 along the DL. And I’m guessing the 280 is more likely up the middle. I love Darton and he’s a beast at 260 and that is his optimal weight but he is on the very low end of size up the middle. I’d prefer to have a heavier guy there, especially in early downs when teams want to run power up the middle. He played too many snaps this year. For as good as we all think he was he had 0 sacks and only 4 TFL’s. I’m sure he had quite a few tackles for minimal gain though. Would love to see what he could do subbing in fresh.

Okechukwu was real solid at one DE spot and has good size and explosion at 268 lbs. thank god he stayed healthy because we realy did’nt have another player right now with that combination of mass and explosion.

But the other DE spot we played undersized at all year. Linton had a lot of snaps at 219 lbs! Geer had a lot at 233 lbs. he’s going to be good but needs to get bigger. Guys this size are going to make plays but also get pushed around and beat for big plays on other downs.

Moving on to 2023 I like our group more as in the middle as we add Ibrahim in at 290 and get Lockett back at 270. We return Okechuckwu at one DE spot and I think his health and availability will be the most important factor all year. Hope we get to see him play all year. And at the other we have many young guys who will have hopefully added good weight and have more experience. Then we bring in Perry and other solid sized young players that can be added to the mix. Lots more depth.

We knew this year was going to be a growing pains for a young group of D lineman. Its not surprising they struggled against the better offensive lines. Inexperienced units struggle in every scheme. I don't assume everyone wants 300 pounders. I only correct the people that say that. I try to explain how the D line's abiility to get into certain gaps effects the 2nd and 3rd level players. Movement is most important component for this defense. We add extra defenders in the box that opponents cant account for. That's their way of slowing down the run. Like you said, All these guys are back next year. We added a bigger guy that can perform all the techniques. Im excited to see what this unit does next year.

 

[money3189]

I know I am one of the need bigger guys guys. My whole point is that getting hit by 320 to 340 lb guys over and over even for an ultra athletic 260 is gonna end bad bye the end of season. Know add a double team to that 260 llber and over time that kid is gonna get hurt. It's not that I want all of them bigger but against power teams I would like some guys in middle who can stop being pushed back. Clog middle and let backers make play at Los instead of 5 yrd gains. We just need the option to put bigger guys in.

I agree with this. This is why they rotate a lot of guys. Lockett and Simmons being lost for the season messed up the rotation.

 

[kcsu]

size matters, speed kills

 

[syrBossHogg]

I’ll add that when we are productive on offense and get a lead that really helps our defense a lot as we really shine when teams are forced to pass it. Or ant least forced not to run it up the gut. Our Offense stalled out a bit after the mid point in the season mostly due to Shraders health.

Yeah, our goal should be to put up points and force teams to pass on us.

I'm fine with teams ramming it down on us as long as we have the lead. Running the ball only gives the opposing team less time to score points.

 

[007]

I know I am one of the need bigger guys guys. My whole point is that getting hit by 320 to 340 lb guys over and over even for an ultra athletic 260 is gonna end bad bye the end of season. Know add a double team to that 260 llber and over time that kid is gonna get hurt. It's not that I want all of them bigger but against power teams I would like some guys in middle who can stop being pushed back. Clog middle and let backers make play at Los instead of 5 yrd gains. We just need the option to put bigger guys in.

Good points.

I really liked the move in the bowl game to some base 4-2 looks. They also used Darton as a standup DT in some of those looks, positioned at times off the line a step, and moving him around (1-3 tech). I realize that White often used 4 and 5 front looks by sliding LBs and an occasional S to create chaos/cause confusion for the OL at the LOS. What we saw in the bowl game, at times anyway, was different.

To me, the discussion is way more nuanced than the debate between those who want more size and those that ridicule posters who voice that opinion. As we saw in the bowl game, there are creative ways of getting an extra DT/more size on the field. That extra DT can still fit the fast explosive d-linemen prototype that the staff prefers for the base 3-3-5. But, allows for the opportunity to situationally use bigger DLs.

I was impressed with the defensive creativity, game planning, and play calls we saw in the bowl game.

 

[money3189]

Good points.

I really liked the move in the bowl game to some base 4-2 looks. They also used Darton as a standup DT in some of those looks, positioned at times off the line a step, and moving him around (1-3 tech). I realize that White often used 4 and 5 front looks by sliding LBs and an occasional S to create chaos/cause confusion for the OL at the LOS. What we saw in the bowl game, at times anyway, was different.

To me, the discussion is way more nuanced than the debate between those who want more size and those that ridicule posters who voice that opinion. As we saw in the bowl game, there are creative ways of getting an extra DT/more size on the field. That extra DT can still fit the fast explosive d-linemen prototype that the staff prefers for the base 3-3-5. But, allows for the opportunity to situationally use bigger DLs.

I was impressed with the defensive creativity, game planning, and play calls we saw in the bowl game.

Well said. We will probably see more of two DY look with Rocky long but think about it. Is it really that much of upgrade in size? Darton and Fuentes are both under 270 pounds at the 1 and 3 tech’s.

 

[Xanadu]

Money is right. Athleticism is 100% what the stuff is looking for over size and that’s what we should be going after especially in the 3-3-5. Some of the hand wringing over size is ridiculous and the use of games like ND and Pitt do not prove anything in terms of size. The DL, already thin coming into the season, was running on 6x guys in that included multiple freshmen throughout our toughest stretch.

The lack of depth and experience in the rotation was the issue and had very little to do with size. Also, citing Steve Linton as an example of why size hurts is also ridiculous. He was incredibly disruptive on passing downs and was obviously never going to play in running situations until the rotation thinned out so much. Linton is 220 soaking wet and could never put on the weight. That was not the staff’s choice. The 3-3-5 is all about having the depth, speed, and athleticism in the rotation to outlast bigger, slower, and less athletic offensive lines.

Just give it a rest.

 

[money3189]

Money is right. Athleticism is 100% what the stuff is looking for over size and that’s what we should be going after especially in the 3-3-5. Some of the hand wringing over size is ridiculous and the use of games like ND and Pitt do not prove anything in terms of size. The DL, already thin coming into the season, was running on 6x guys in that included multiple freshmen throughout our toughest stretch.

The lack of depth and experience in the rotation was the issue and had very little to do with size. Also, citing Steve Linton as an example of why size hurts is also ridiculous. He was incredibly disruptive on passing downs and was obviously never going to play in running situations until the rotation thinned out so much. Linton is 220 soaking wet and could never put on the weight. That was not the staff’s choice. The 3-3-5 is all about having the depth, speed, and athleticism in the rotation to outlast bigger, slower, and less athletic offensive lines.

Just give it a rest.

The 2018 defense was ranked 105th with the best DE and DT SU had in years but people are complaining about a scheme that finished 21st with a young inexperienced D line?

 

[baggerbob]

We knew this year was going to be a growing pains for a young group of D lineman. Its not surprising they struggled against the better offensive lines. Inexperienced units struggle in every scheme. I don't assume everyone wants 300 pounders. I only correct the people that say that. I try to explain how the D line's abiility to get into certain gaps effects the 2nd and 3rd level players. Movement is most important component for this defense. We add extra defenders in the box that opponents cant account for. That's their way of slowing down the run. Like you said, All these guys are back next year. We added a bigger guy that can perform all the techniques. Im excited to see what this unit does next year.

If Perry is half as good as people hope he will be a fixture for 3 years.
Just reading the things he says, and how he trains, and his desire to be great.
Really expect him to be something special.

 

[MadNY3]

Interesting thread on the 3-3-5 against heavy personnel

This is a sensational thread. Thanks for sharing.

 

[money3189]

This is a sensational thread. Thanks for sharing.

No problem. I shared this so people can get a understanding of the schemes and chest matches coaches play.

 

[shu 49]

Good points.

I really liked the move in the bowl game to some base 4-2 looks. They also used Darton as a standup DT in some of those looks, positioned at times off the line a step, and moving him around (1-3 tech). I realize that White often used 4 and 5 front looks by sliding LBs and an occasional S to create chaos/cause confusion for the OL at the LOS. What we saw in the bowl game, at times anyway, was different.

To me, the discussion is way more nuanced than the debate between those who want more size and those that ridicule posters who voice that opinion. As we saw in the bowl game, there are creative ways of getting an extra DT/more size on the field. That extra DT can still fit the fast explosive d-linemen prototype that the staff prefers for the base 3-3-5. But, allows for the opportunity to situationally use bigger DLs.

I was impressed with the defensive creativity, game planning, and play calls we saw in the bowl game.

Yeah but the only thing I didn't like with Darton is his instinct to drive his man to far upfield and run past rb. It created a bigger hole and they got some good yardage off of it. I like him in a 3 point cause as light as he is one on one no body has been able to move him. When they double they do but 1 on 1 he is pretty unlovable. Maybe Greer in that spot or Caleb would be good at that.

 

[007]

Yeah but the only thing I didn't like with Darton is his instinct to drive his man to far upfield and run past rb. It created a bigger hole and they got some good yardage off of it. I like him in a 3 point cause as light as he is one on one no body has been able to move him. When they double they do but 1 on 1 he is pretty unlovable. Maybe Greer in that spot or Caleb would be good at that.

I don't know, I think he is "loveable" 1:1...

I hear you about the leverage he creates from 4 point stance.

 

[shu 49]

I don't know, I think he is "loveable" 1:1...

I hear you about the leverage he creates from 4 point stance.

Unmovable lmfao