Bill Simmons take on Carmelo

[Marroniac]

http://grantland.com/features/carmelo-anthony-new-york-knicks-legacy/

 

[Czar]

Damnit I was just coming here to post this thinking no one would be on this late.

This really was one of the best articles I've ever seen Simmons write. And it's really depressing seeing it laid out just how ****ing bad the teams Carmelo have been on were. For ****s sake, the most effective PG he's ever played with was probably Gerry back here. That's just ****ing sad.

 

[STEVEHOLT]

his own fault



"Why didn’t we ever feel sorry for Carmelo? It’s simple — he placed himself in this situation. He could have waited until the summer of 2011, opted out of his first Nuggets extension and signed with New York as a free agent. Instead, his agents forced a midseason trade that kept his previous contract in place (more money, more leverage). Here’s what that extra money effectively cost them (and Carmelo): Danilo Gallinari, Wilson Chandler, their 2014 first-round pick (turned out to be 11th overall), and a first-round pick swap in 2016. Four super-tradable assets … out the window.

A few other players were involved, including Felton and Timofey Mozgov (sent to Denver) and Billups (sent to New York). And that’s where this deal gets darker. After the 2011 lockout ended, the Knicks used their amnesty on Billups solely to create cap room to sign Tyson Chandler. When Amar’e degenerated into The Artist Formerly Known As Amar’e two seasons ago, they didn’t have an amnesty left to snuff out his remaining $40 million. Whoops. Unable to improve their roster last summer, they stumbled into the comically bad Bargnani trade. This summer, they couldn’t sign any impact players.

All in all, that was a catastrophic trade considering Denver didn’t have any leverage whatsoever. And it happened because Carmelo wanted more money"

 

[Full_Rebar]

The issue I have with this is that we are assuming the Knicks wouldn't have screwed up their roster anyway. I mean nothing over the last decade would convince you to think that Dolan's crew would have done much differently. If we assume Melo waits it out and signs with NY in the summer, does anyone believe that the Knicks spend wisely? This is the management group that would have matched Toronto's offer for Landry Fields if they had the cap room- they don't exactly have the greatest track record.

 

[CusefanATL]

thats pretty spot on

 

[CusefanATL]

thats pretty spot on

 

[TheCusian]

his own fault "Why didn’t we ever feel sorry for Carmelo? It’s simple — he placed himself in this situation. He could have waited until the summer of 2011, opted out of his first Nuggets extension and signed with New York as a free agent. Instead, his agents forced a midseason trade that kept his previous contract in place (more money, more leverage). Here’s what that extra money effectively cost them (and Carmelo): Danilo Gallinari, Wilson Chandler, their 2014 first-round pick (turned out to be 11th overall), and a first-round pick swap in 2016. Four super-tradable assets … out the window. A few other players were involved, including Felton and Timofey Mozgov (sent to Denver) and Billups (sent to New York). And that’s where this deal gets darker. After the 2011 lockout ended, the Knicks used their amnesty on Billups solely to create cap room to sign Tyson Chandler. When Amar’e degenerated into The Artist Formerly Known As Amar’e two seasons ago, they didn’t have an amnesty left to snuff out his remaining $40 million. Whoops. Unable to improve their roster last summer, they stumbled into the comically bad Bargnani trade. This summer, they couldn’t sign any impact players. All in all, that was a catastrophic trade considering Denver didn’t have any leverage whatsoever. And it happened because Carmelo wanted more money"

Partly his own fault. He's had inept GM's helping along the way.

 

[Tobias Funke]

Partly his own fault. He's had inept GM's helping along the way.

correct. Carmelo didn't decide to amnesty Billups, he was not at fault for Amare's demise. He created some of these issues but not all.

 

[Millhouse]

wish he would've mentioned all the assists in the nat'l championship game. it's not selfish to take a lot of shots on sh!tty teams

 

[Alsacs]

That article laid out exactly my argument in the Melo resigns thread. We love him because he is SU's best player in the NBA, but he isn't as elite as his reputation. If Melo is a true superstar then his supporting cast is the difference between winning in the playoffs and losing. He should have had ZERO problems making the playoffs in a crappy East last year. Melo is a top 15-20 player in the NBA.

 

[Alsacs]

correct. Carmelo didn't decide to amnesty Billups, he was not at fault for Amare's demise. He created some of these issues but not all.

He did decide to take 5 yr 122 million instead of going to team that won 46 games without Derrick Rose last year. In the end Melo took money and NYC over having a chance to win a ring. I love Melo, but his legacy will be Bernard King 2.0 and not Dirk Nowitzki level good.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

One of the questions I've never seen answered is what's the top upside on Carmelo in terms of earnings off the court. As in, does Carmelo make more money in endorsements staying in NY on a mediocre team, or is there more money to be made being on a powerhouse Chicago team? I understand the dollars from the teams argument, but knowing if Carmelo could sign another couple of huge endorsement deals by being on the next 'superteam' would change the equation just a bit.

 

[Millhouse]

He did decide to take 5 yr 122 million instead of going to team that won 46 games without Derrick Rose last year. In the end Melo took money and NYC over having a chance to win a ring. I love Melo, but his legacy will be Bernard King 2.0 and not Dirk Nowitzki level good.

there was a BIG difference in money though

we all like to think that at a certain point we wouldn't want more but i'm sure i could find something to spend it on. we know he's a generous guy, maybe he has plans to give away a lot of that extra money later

 

[rrlbees]

He did decide to take 5 yr 122 million instead of going to team that won 46 games without Derrick Rose last year. In the end Melo took money and NYC over having a chance to win a ring. I love Melo, but his legacy will be Bernard King 2.0 and not Dirk Nowitzki level good.

So Phil Jackson is a fool and got taken?

 

[Alsacs]

there was a BIG difference in money though

we all like to think that at a certain point we wouldn't want more but i'm sure i could find something to spend it on. we know he's a generous guy, maybe he has plans to give away a lot of that extra money later

I already laid this out in the other thread. NYC city taxes and NY state taxes already eat 12.1% of his deal. Illinois taxes were a lot lower and because Melo resides in NYC he has to pay an extra millionaires tax. He got paid more money from the Knicks but after the Federal government gets its cut that 122 million becomes 67 million. He would have grossed about 52 million if he signed with Chicago without a sign and trade, but that would have only been for 4 years with Chicago versus 5 years with New York.

 

[Full_Rebar]

That article laid out exactly my argument in the Melo resigns thread. We love him because he is SU's best player in the NBA, but he isn't as elite as his reputation. If Melo is a true superstar then his supporting cast is the difference between winning in the playoffs and losing. He should have had ZERO problems making the playoffs in a crappy East last year. Melo is a top 15-20 player in the NBA.

By that logic, where would you rank Kevin Love who has never had a playoff appearance?

 

[Alsacs]

So Phil Jackson is a fool and got taken?

Who said Phil Jackson is a fool. I just said Melo took money over a chance to win. Phil Jackson had no choice but offer Melo all that money or his team would go from winning 35 to 49 games to winning 25 to 35 games. Jackson begged Melo to opt in for next year, but after he opted out Phil had no choice or then he would have to rebuild from the ground floor.

If I was Phil I sign and trade Melo w/JR Smith's awful contract for Jimmy Butler, Mirotic's rights, Sacramento 1st round pick, another Chicago first round pick, trade exemption and Boozer.
That was the right deal, but Phil didn't want to do this.

 

[Alsacs]

By that logic, where would you rank Kevin Love who has never had a playoff appearance?

Read the other thread. IMO, Love is only slightly better than Melo right now. Also, if Love's team is in the East he makes the playoffs last year. He won 40 games playing 52 games against the Western conference which had its 9th place team with the same record as the East 3rd seed. Love has never played with an all-star. Melo hasn't had a great supporting cast but he has played with Iverson, Martin, Billups, Chandler which are better than Love's best teams Rubio and Pekovic.

 

[Full_Rebar]

I don't really follow your logic at all. You say an elite talent should get their team into the playoffs, yet Love is better than Melo even though he's never made the playoffs and Melo has only missed the playoffs once? The West hasn't been that much better than the East during Love's entire career. Yes, his supporting cast has been week, but it's also been loaded with lottery picks.

 

[Alsacs]

I don't really follow your logic at all. You say an elite talent should get their team into the playoffs, yet Love is better than Melo even though he's never made the playoffs and Melo has only missed the playoffs once? The West hasn't been that much better than the East during Love's entire career. Yes, his supporting cast has been week, but it's also been loaded with lottery picks.

Again, last year 4 of the 5 worst teams in the NBA were in the East last year. Philly, Milwaukee, Orlando, Boston vs. Utah. Also, after Atlanta lost Horford they wanted to lose as well. The West has been the better conference since MJ retired. It doesn't mean its always better on top, but the middle bottom of the West has been better for a while. Minnesota went 17-13 against the East last year if they are in the East they definitely make the playoffs. I would say the only reason Minnesota was even close to the playoffs was Love who is only 25 is a top 10ish player. Melo playing in a crappy East with 8 games against Boston and Philly, another 7 games against Orlando and Boston HAD ZERO business not making the playoffs if Melo is a top 10 player. Atlanta begged to be caught, but the Knicks never caught them. Love is stuck playing against the West. If the Knicks played in the West last year they win even fewer games and if the TWolves are in the East they are in the playoffs no doubt. The West has been better than the East during Love's entire career. His supporting cast may have been lottery picks, but David Kahn was drafting them Knicks411 could have drafted better than Kahn.

Love is better than Melo, but not by a lot. Love is probably 11-15th and Melo just below.

 

[Knicks411]

Damnit I was just coming here to post this thinking no one would be on this late.

This really was one of the best articles I've ever seen Simmons write. And it's really depressing seeing it laid out just how ****ing bad the teams Carmelo have been on were. For ****s sake, the most effective PG he's ever played with was probably Gerry back here. That's just ****ing sad.

Chauncey Billups? Andre Miller? The Denver teams he was on had some talent on them. The Knicks team he was on last year? Dumpster fire.

Love is better than Melo, but not by a lot. Love is probably 11-15th and Melo just below.

I like both of those guys better than you, I think Love and Melo are both probably in the top 10, with Love a little better.

 

[Full_Rebar]

That's last year, which curiously was considered Melo's best individual NBA season by many. What's interesting about your argument is that Melo made the playoffs every year he played in the West, including 2009 where he led his team to the West is Best Conference finals.

Now Love might be a better all-around player today, but using last year's Knicks missing the playoffs as the rationale is just ridiculous. Also, I'm not sure what the Hawks did to try and intentionally lose games. I must have missed all the games where like Philly they sat starters.

 

[Alsacs]

That's last year, which curiously was considered Melo's best individual NBA season by many. What's interesting about your argument is that Melo made the playoffs every year he played in the West, including 2009 where he led his team to the West is Best Conference finals.

Now Love might be a better all-around player today, but using last year's Knicks missing the playoffs as the rationale is just ridiculous. Also, I'm not sure what the Hawks did to try and intentionally lose games. I must have missed all the games where like Philly they sat starters.

Those Nugget teams weren't that bad they had Martin, Nene, Billups, Andre Miller, JR Smith, Melo and decent coach in Karl. Melo didn't have elite talent in Denver, but he had decent talent. Melo has only reached the conference finals 1 time. I like Melo, but my point has been consistent if your a top 10 player in the NBA and your playing in a CRAPPY East and your having a career year YOU HAVE TO MAKE THE PLAYOFFS.

 

[rrlbees]

if your a top 10 player in the NBA and your playing in a CRAPPY East and your having a career year YOU HAVE TO MAKE THE PLAYOFFS.

Shows you how bad the players around him were.

 

[jekelish]

Shows you how bad the players around him were.

You're trying to tell me this isn't a fantastic roster?

No. ▴PlayerPosHtWtBirth DateExpCollege
Chris SmithPG6-2200October 13, 1987RUniversity of Louisville
Earl ClarkPF6-10225January 17, 19884University of Louisville
1Amar'e StoudemireC6-10245November 16, 198211
2Raymond FeltonPG6-1198June 26, 19848University of North Carolina
3Kenyon MartinPF6-9234December 30, 197713University of Cincinnati
4Jeremy TylerC6-10260June 21, 19912
5Tim HardawaySG6-6205March 16, 1992RUniversity of Michigan
6Tyson ChandlerC7-1235October 2, 198212
7Carmelo AnthonyPF6-8230May 29, 198410Syracuse University
8J.R. SmithSF6-6220September 9, 19859
9Pablo PrigioniPG6-3180May 17, 19771
18Beno UdrihSG6-3205July 5, 19829
21Iman ShumpertSG6-5212June 26, 19902Georgia Institute of Technology
23Toure' MurryPG6-5195November 8, 1989RWichita State University
26Shannon BrownSG6-4205November 29, 19857Michigan State University
45Cole AldrichC6-11245October 31, 19883University of Kansas
51Metta World PeaceSF6-6244November 13, 197914St. John's University
77Andrea BargnaniC7-0225October 26, 19857

 

[jimsonjunction]

Simmons is dead on in this article. Maybe Melo should have gone to Chicago. But I agree with Simmons' initial point, that Carmelo is "the NBA's most underappreciated and misunderstood player." The earlier statement by Alsacs that he's "not as elite as his reputation" is the opposite of the truth in my opinion.

Did he make one or two missteps in his career? Yeah, probably. But the fact is, he hasn't had one good break in his NBA career. No good coaches. No good GM's. No great teammates. If only Detroit drafted him instead of Darko! If only his agent had gotten him the same opt-out as Wade, Lebron and Bosh.

It's unfortunate that some people will remember Carmelo for "not being a superstar". True NBA fans (like Simmons) will remember him as one of the greatest scorers to ever play the game. An elite player for whom the stars never quite aligned.