Bill Simmons take on Carmelo

[Madbiker]

his own fault

"Why didn’t we ever feel sorry for Carmelo? It’s simple — he placed himself in this situation. He could have waited until the summer of 2011, opted out of his first Nuggets extension and signed with New York as a free agent. Instead, his agents forced a midseason trade that kept his previous contract in place (more money, more leverage). Here’s what that extra money effectively cost them (and Carmelo): Danilo Gallinari, Wilson Chandler, their 2014 first-round pick (turned out to be 11th overall), and a first-round pick swap in 2016. Four super-tradable assets … out the window.

A few other players were involved, including Felton and Timofey Mozgov (sent to Denver) and Billups (sent to New York). And that’s where this deal gets darker. After the 2011 lockout ended, the Knicks used their amnesty on Billups solely to create cap room to sign Tyson Chandler. When Amar’e degenerated into The Artist Formerly Known As Amar’e two seasons ago, they didn’t have an amnesty left to snuff out his remaining $40 million. Whoops. Unable to improve their roster last summer, they stumbled into the comically bad Bargnani trade. This summer, they couldn’t sign any impact players.

All in all, that was a catastrophic trade considering Denver didn’t have any leverage whatsoever. And it happened because Carmelo wanted more money"

Actually it happened because the Knicks owner is an idiot. He could have listened to his GM who was telling him to sit tight and not cave. But we all know Dolan and patience should never be used in the same sentence.

 

[Knicks411]

Actually it happened because the Knicks owner is an idiot. He could have listened to his GM who was telling him to sit tight and not cave. But we all know Dolan and patience should never be used in the same sentence.

Dolan is an idiot, but Melo could have waited until off-season to sign with the Knicks. Would have helped the team out a lot.

 

[Rocco]

That article is incredible. I love me some Bill Simmons.

 

[Tobias Funke]

That article is incredible. I love me some Bill Simmons.

Bill Simmons in the written form is much better than Bill simmons in visual/verbal form that is for sure

 

[MikeSU02]

Simmons is dead on in this article. Maybe Melo should have gone to Chicago. But I agree with Simmons' initial point, that Carmelo is "the NBA's most underappreciated and misunderstood player." The earlier statement by Alsacs that he's "not as elite as his reputation" is the opposite of the truth in my opinion.

Did he make one or two missteps in his career? Yeah, probably. But the fact is, he hasn't had one good break in his NBA career. No good coaches. No good GM's. No great teammates. If only Detroit drafted him instead of Darko! If only his agent had gotten him the same opt-out as Wade, Lebron and Bosh.

It's unfortunate that some people will remember Carmelo for "not being a superstar". True NBA fans (like Simmons) will remember him as one of the greatest scorers to ever play the game. An elite player for whom the stars never quite aligned.

Dead on.

If you didn't watch the Knicks/follow the city papers last year, maybe you think Melo should have dragged that team to the playoffs. That team was an absolute wreck with everyone knowing that there were going to be seismic changes after the year. Injuries, players not caring, etc.

BTW, Melo was injured and still played most of the season. And he led the league in minutes. And got a career high in rebounds per game. And scored 28 per game.

He's going to end his career with 10+ all star games. Be top 5 in scoring if he wants to play long enough all time. He'll probably get one more gold medal if he plays in 2016. BTW, he's already 40th in all time scoring, ahead of a LOT of HoF players.

And if he only wins one, just one, title with the Knicks, he will be a god.

One other thing, don't think that Chicago would have been the right move. Besides the obvious pay cut he would have had to take, he would have been banking on DRose being back to near 100%, Thibedeau staying in Chicago for another 4 years (definitely not a sure thing) and Joakim Noah staying healthy and playing at the level he played at last year. And this all to be smashed by a Western Conference team like SA or OKC in the Finals.

 

[KaiserUEO]

That article laid out exactly my argument in the Melo resigns thread. We love him because he is SU's best player in the NBA, but he isn't as elite as his reputation. If Melo is a true superstar then his supporting cast is the difference between winning in the playoffs and losing. He should have had ZERO problems making the playoffs in a crappy East last year. Melo is a top 15-20 player in the NBA.

obviously, you didnt read the article.

and obviously your whole anti-Melo argument is based on last year and trying to position yourself as not wearing Orange glasses, when we've already thrown that out the window.

oh, and Eli would be in a tie for the 5th best QB, clearly below the big 4.. but i suppose you are only looking at last years INT totals and therefore discredit him and rank him lower.

 

[Alsacs]

obviously, you didnt read the article.

and obviously your whole anti-Melo argument is based on last year and trying to position yourself as not wearing Orange glasses, when we've already thrown that out the window.

oh, and Eli would be in a tie for the 5th best QB, clearly below the big 4.. but i suppose you are only looking at last years INT totals and therefore discredit him and rank him lower.

Eli is not even close to a top 5 QB. I respect the rings but Ben Roethlisberger has 2 rings and he isn't in the top 5. Ben has had crappy OL just like Eli. Eli is maybe top 10 right now its not a lifetime achievement award. Brady had less weapons and still won 12 games. Eli hasn't made the playoffs since winning a ring in 2012 that is not elite.
Peyton, Rodgers, Brees, Brady,Luck off the the top of my head all better than Eli right now. Cam, Kapernick, Russell Wilson are debatable same with Ben.

 

[Alsacs]

t

obviously, you didnt read the article.

and obviously your whole anti-Melo argument is based on last year and trying to position yourself as not wearing Orange glasses, when we've already thrown that out the window.

oh, and Eli would be in a tie for the 5th best QB, clearly below the big 4.. but i suppose you are only looking at last years INT totals and therefore discredit him and rank him lower.

I read the article it showed Melo's career and I was one months ago who said Durant has had a way better supporting cast as Melo. The point to me was Melo took money over a chance to have his own 2011 Mavs run. If Melo didn't need the 50 million extra after earning 130 million on the court he goes to a team that won 46 games without Rose. Instead he took the money and now will be Bernard King 2.0 and never win a damn thing.

 

[Alsacs]

Shows you how bad the players around him were.

So you just changed your argument from the Phil one huh. That same roster for the most part except adding Bargs and losing Fields won 54 games the previous year. I guess they weren't bad players then. I know Chandler was hurt, but they added Hardaway Jr. one of the best rookies last year to the team. Melo was 3rd in the MVP 2 years why was he better last year. I hate these comments its show we can never have a discourse if anyone has an objective opinion everyone has to pile on. My god I bet people think my opinion is on the same lever as igor, but its a legit freaking opinion. If Melo is as great as people think he should be good for 40 wins no matter his teammates. The Celtics who sucked last year went into MSG and beat the Knicks by like 40 points. If the team sucked as much as they did then I guess 2012-2013 3rd MVP was a fluke.

 

[Alsacs]

I am done arguing this point people just want to hammer an opinion. Read my signature I never said my opinion is a freaking fact its MY OPINION. I WANT Carmelo Anthony to win a title, but MY OPINION is he is not a top 5 player or a top 10 player but a top 11-13 player in the NBA. I don't get why that is freaking outrageous if you say he is 7th best and I say 11th or 12th WHY is this such a problem. In my OPINION if Melo is as great as people think he guarantees you a playoff season if he has one of his two best seasons no matter the supporting cast. Its disappointing we can't have debates anymore. I don't think everyone has been rude I respect Full Rebar's, OrangeDW's TheBigEast44's and others posts they don't want chunks of flesh but other posts are just coming at me because of my opinion. I can't take this I debate with my best friends and they we bust balls but they don't debate me passive aggressively just wanting to win a freaking argument.

 

[HOFCeluck]

It seems the pendulum has snow swung completely from the old Melo vs Lebron debate.

 

[djcon57]

The Celtics who sucked last year went into MSG and beat the Knicks by like 40 points.

cringe

You didn't just post a 1 game result from NBA reg season to make your point, did you?

You know the Knicks beat the Spurs in SA in the reg season too?

 

[jimsonjunction]

So you just changed your argument from the Phil one huh. That same roster for the most part except adding Bargs and losing Fields won 54 games the previous year. I guess they weren't bad players then. I know Chandler was hurt, but they added Hardaway Jr. one of the best rookies last year to the team. Melo was 3rd in the MVP 2 years why was he better last year. I hate these comments its show we can never have a discourse if anyone has an objective opinion everyone has to pile on. My god I bet people think my opinion is on the same lever as igor, but its a legit freaking opinion. If Melo is as great as people think he should be good for 40 wins no matter his teammates. The Celtics who sucked last year went into MSG and beat the Knicks by like 40 points. If the team sucked as much as they did then I guess 2012-2013 3rd MVP was a fluke.

I don't think you're opinion is crazy at all. A lot of people share it, just not many on this board (no surprise there). I watched most of the Knicks games last year, and that team was a disaster. What's strange is why you rip Melo for not making the playoffs last year, but give him no credit for earning the 2 seed the year before with "the same roster for the most part".

The truth is that the team was vastly different from year to year. Not that Melo got worse. And there's no one thing we can point to. They got rid of Copeland and Novak, abandoning the spread offense that resulted in so many 3's the previous year. JR Smith went from 6th man of the year to a cancer. Chandler I actually lost respect for because of his lack of effort. Felton is the worst PG in the NBA. Shumpert can't shoot. Bargs is a waste of space. The list goes on and on. Hopefully Phil Jackson can combine patience with purpose and build a contender in 3-4 years. That will give Melo one last shot, which is all we can ask for.

 

[OrangeDW]

He did decide to take 5 yr 122 million instead of going to team that won 46 games without Derrick Rose last year. In the end Melo took money and NYC over having a chance to win a ring. I love Melo, but his legacy will be Bernard King 2.0 and not Dirk Nowitzki level good.

He's already dealt with a hobbled Amare for 4 years. Why would he possibly sign up for the same thing all over again, with Rose?

 

[skurey]

rofl did someone say Eli is a top 5 QB?

dude isn't even a top 5 QB in his own family

 

[Alsacs]

cringe

You didn't just post a 1 game result from NBA reg season to make your point, did you?

You know the Knicks beat the Spurs in SA in the reg season too?

Listen I am honestly done debating but good job your point is fair and is a good counter. I am just sick of having to feel my opinion is ridiculous when its not.

 

[KaiserUEO]

Eli is not even close to a top 5 QB. I respect the rings but Ben Roethlisberger has 2 rings and he isn't in the top 5. Ben has had crappy OL just like Eli. Eli is maybe top 10 right now its not a lifetime achievement award. Brady had less weapons and still won 12 games. Eli hasn't made the playoffs since winning a ring in 2012 that is not elite.
Peyton, Rodgers, Brees, Brady,Luck off the the top of my head all better than Eli right now. Cam, Kapernick, Russell Wilson are debatable same with Ben.

im biased for Eli because people have been shlitting on him his whole career, so i put him tied for 5th. because after the big 4, its really a crapshoot and personal opinions anyway. at the end of the day his #s and rings will put him in the HOF which is nice for him, but wont mean shlit to me because ill be fully vested in whomever is then the starting QB for that upcoming 16 (hopefully 18) game slate for the Giants.

your 'opinions' are being mocked and laughed at becuase you 'GUARANTEED' things in them.

Melo is not on lebrons or even durants level, but putting him in the same class as Bernard King is offensive.

and you have basically based your entire opinion on last years Knick team and what couldve been next years bulls team.

and youre wrong on your 2014 Knick analysis.

and youre wrong for shoving the opinion of a guaranteed bull championship down our throats.

and youre wrong for not leaving the door open to the unexpected.

 

[Alsacs]

He's already dealt with a hobbled Amare for 4 years. Why would he possibly sign up for the same thing all over again, with Rose?

My last post on this, but without Rose for 2/3s of the season the Bulls won 46 games and their biggest weakness was having a scorer which is what Melo would have been. Noah, Gibson would have done the dirty work and defending and Thibs is a top 5 coach. Melo wanted the money and couldn't get a sign and trade. Even if Rose is done that team had a way better chance to win the East the Knicks will. However, we will never know now.

 

[Alsacs]

B

im biased for Eli because people have been shlitting on him his whole career, so i put him tied for 5th. because after the big 4, its really a crapshoot and personal opinions anyway. at the end of the day his #s and rings will put him in the HOF which is nice for him, but wont mean shlit to me because ill be fully vested in whomever is then the starting QB for that upcoming 16 (hopefully 18) game slate for the Giants.

your 'opinions' are being mocked and laughed at becuase you 'GUARANTEED' things in them.

Melo is not on lebrons or even durants level, but putting him in the same class as Bernard King is offensive.

and you have basically based your entire opinion on last years Knick team and what couldve been next years bulls team.

and youre wrong on your 2014 Knick analysis.

and youre wrong for shoving the opinion of a guaranteed bull championship down our throats.

and youre wrong for not leaving the door open to the unexpected.

How is comparing Melo to Bernard King offensive? They are the same player. If Bernard had the surgeries and medicine of today he is probably a top 40 player alltime instead of a top 60 player of alltime.

Bernard Resume isn't bad its freaking HOF level just like Melo.
4x NBA All Star,
2 time All-NBA FIRST team(1984, 1985)
1 time All-NBA Second team(1982)
1 time All-NBA Third Team(1991)
NBA scoring champion 1985
Pro Basketball HOF Class of 2013

If Hubie Brown wasn't trying to keep his job and didn't overwork Bernard more than D'Antoni rode Stoudmaire in 2010 then King is beyond special the rest of the 80's. Bernard's knees were killed by Hubie and medicine/surgery wasn't the same now.

Melo as Bernard is very fair comp and not an insult at all. Melo just isn't Dirk who is a true top 20 player all time on the Barkley, Karl Maline level.

 

[rrlbees]

So you just changed your argument from the Phil one huh. That same roster for the most part except adding Bargs and losing Fields won 54 games the previous year. I guess they weren't bad players then. I know Chandler was hurt, but they added Hardaway Jr. one of the best rookies last year to the team. Melo was 3rd in the MVP 2 years why was he better last year. I hate these comments its show we can never have a discourse if anyone has an objective opinion everyone has to pile on. My god I bet people think my opinion is on the same lever as igor, but its a legit freaking opinion. If Melo is as great as people think he should be good for 40 wins no matter his teammates. The Celtics who sucked last year went into MSG and beat the Knicks by like 40 points. If the team sucked as much as they did then I guess 2012-2013 3rd MVP was a fluke.

What Phil argument? I didn't say last years team sucked because of Phil. Two different topics.

 

[TheCusian]

Those Nugget teams weren't that bad they had Martin, Nene, Billups, Andre Miller, JR Smith, Melo and decent coach in Karl. Melo didn't have elite talent in Denver, but he had decent talent. Melo has only reached the conference finals 1 time. I like Melo, but my point has been consistent if your a top 10 player in the NBA and your playing in a CRAPPY East and your having a career year YOU HAVE TO MAKE THE PLAYOFFS.

You keep using the other post as reference, but you didn't prove the point there either. Now using Simmons, you've come to the exact opposite conclusion that he draws. Simmons lays it out perfectly - we don't know if he's good enough to win it all because of his supporting casts. Last year's Knick team was comically bad and the were in it until the second to last game. Some of it is on his timing or wanting money (DEN trade) - but it's not been his performance. Also: you simply cannot lay a teams failing solely on an individual, and then use it to determine individual worth. It's a bogus metric. It removes everyone else in the equation.

EDIT: didn't read the whole thread - didn't realize you were done with the discussion. Feel free to ignore, we can agree to disagree.

 

[Knicks411]

Bernard King was a total bad ass for a few years there

 

[PoppyHart]

Bernard King was a total bad ass for a few years there

My favorite basketball player ever. I used to watch the games and keep track of his points, just in case the newspapers were wrong the following day.

In many ways similar to Don Mattingly of that era. Both offensive powerhouses, among the very best (or best in Mattingly's case) in the game for a limited period. Both blue collar ambassadors to the game. Both with careers compromised to injury.

 

[PoppyHart]

I think Simmons got most of it right. Melo is a star, but not a superstar.

I used to rank him in the 15-ish category myself, but I think he's catapulted a few guys who are on the downswing of their careers (Nash, Garnett, Pierce, Duncan, inter alia), and is now a legitimate top-10 player. Unless he brings the Knicks on a deep run or has an MVP-type year, though, he may have peaked in the rankings. Still HOF caliber career.

 

[Madbiker]

He did decide to take 5 yr 122 million instead of going to team that won 46 games without Derrick Rose last year. In the end Melo took money and NYC over having a chance to win a ring. I love Melo, but his legacy will be Bernard King 2.0 and not Dirk Nowitzki level good.

Nobody leaves $52 million on the table, it was just too big a difference NY vs. Chicago. Jackson will build a good team around Melo but it will take a little time not the coming season. For purely a winning basketball aspect yes, but money always plays a role and $50+ million is a loud voice. Also have to think that Melo didn't want his son anywhere near the violence in Chicago. Even though Melo wouldn't be living in those neighborhoods, the violence spills over to other areas of the city.