Carmelo officially retiring!

[Day2]

Not sure if this has been mentioned in the 7-page thread but is it possible that both the Nuggets and Knicks would retire Melo's number?

He's one of 4 10k point scorers for Denver and one of seven for the Knicks.

The Nuggets will definitely retire his number…but not on his behalf.

 

[sufandu]

I should add that in 13/14, Melo finished runner-up for the scoring title. Just to reiterate, he was NOT ALL-NBA that year. In 2010/11, Melo finished third in scoring while adding 7.5 rebounds and 3 assists per game. Once again, not all-NBA. Like I said: asinine.

Yeah, a vicitim of the mentality that competing for championships is all that matters, as if this is an individual sport. Dominique Wilkins never had more team success and was never punished for it as much as Melo. This shift in idealogy the last couple decades that individuals in team sports be judged so much based on their team success is stupid, and I think it's because there are too many numbers idiots that don't actually watch sports and observe how good someone actually is.

 

[OrangeDW]

Yeah, a vicitim of the mentality that competing for championships is all that matters, as if this is an individual sport. Dominique Wilkins never had more team success and was never punished for it as much as Melo. This shift in idealogy the last couple decades that individuals in team sports be judged so much based on their team success is stupid, and I think it's because there are too many numbers idiots that don't actually watch sports and observe how good someone actually is.

Younger people watch highlights on social media and look at numbers, and then try to act like they know more about basketball than Kevin Durant when they fight with him on Twitter.

 

[sufandu]

Younger people watch highlights on social media and look at numbers, and then try to act like they know more about basketball than Kevin Durant when they fight with him on Twitter.

I've heard it more from TV guys too, some of them seasoned. I feel like it's the Jordan and Brady effect. If Marino were a QB now would he be viewed the same as he was during his era. Nobody doubted that he was one of the best. Now they'd just say he was a stat accumulator, that he doesn't elevate his teammates. It's lazy analysis to act as if the coaching and teammates around you don't matter.

 

[MikeSU02]

I love Melo but there's no way he's Top 30.

25-30 (on ESPN's all-time list which I think is very solid) is Havlicek, Isiah, Chris Paul, Mikan, and DWade. I don't think you can take any of those five off. And then the next five (30-35) are Iverson, Pippen, Kawhi, Cousy, Pettit.

Yeah, no dice on top 30 for me. I don't actually think it's particularly close, either. Maybe you can make an argument for top 60, but that's about it. Like I noted, at best, he's the fourth best SF since he was drafted (Bron, KD, Kawhi, Melo). At best. You start adding in the other stars even from his draft class and onwards and you are also talking Steph, CP3, Harden, Giannis, Jokic, Embiid, Dame, etc. It gets deep pretty quickly.

No shame in being top 75 though.

 

[DoctorBombay]

Younger people watch highlights on social media and look at numbers, and then try to act like they know more about basketball than Kevin Durant when they fight with him on Twitter.

You just described Gen X, Gen Y and Gen Zers, all of whom grew up in a cyberspace reality where everyone who has an opinion about anything, is able to spout off and express it, ad infinitum.
These folks are alot like Cliff Clavin from Cheers, and in cyberspace they can easily find some other know-it-alls ready to confirm their pov.
The most condescending and overused phrase nowadays is "do your research".
My nephew tries to goad me into debating whether Muhammad Ali or wait-for-it...Floyd Mayweather, is the greatest of all time, and even suggests that they both had equal impacts on our society. Yeah, seriously.

 

[OrangeDW]

You just described Gen X, Gen Y and Gen Zers, all of whom grew up in a cyberspace reality where everyone who has an opinion about anything, is able to spout off and express it, ad infinitum.
These folks are alot like Cliff Clavin from Cheers, and in cyberspace they can easily find some other know-it-alls ready to confirm their pov.
The most condescending and overused phrase nowadays is "do your research".
My nephew tries to goad me into debating whether Muhammad Ali or wait-for-it...Floyd Mayweather, is the greatest of all time, and even suggests that they both had equal impacts on our society. Yeah, seriously.

The obsession many seem to now have with comparing athletes and teams from completely different eras is beyond weird to me. Who friggin cares? Lol.

 

[Eric15]

My nephew tries to goad me into debating whether Muhammad Ali or wait-for-it...Floyd Mayweather, is the greatest of all time, and even suggests that they both had equal impacts on our society. Yeah, seriously.

Floyd isn't anywhere in the stratosphere of being the cultural icon that Ali was, obviously. Part of that is because boxing was the most popular sport in the country in Ali's day and now it's fringe at best.

But from a pure pound-for-pound boxing debate perspective, I think there are very reasonable arguments to be made for both guys.

 

[Eric15]

Yeah, no dice on top 30 for me. I don't actually think it's particularly close, either. Maybe you can make an argument for top 60, but that's about it. Like I noted, at best, he's the fourth best SF since he was drafted (Bron, KD, Kawhi, Melo). At best. You start adding in the other stars even from his draft class and onwards and you are also talking Steph, CP3, Harden, Giannis, Jokic, Embiid, Dame, etc. It gets deep pretty quickly.

No shame in being top 75 though.

I think Melo’s brethren in terms of historical greatness are going to be guys like Nique, Gervin, Alex English, Dame Lillard, TMac, etc. Which is still very elite company.

 

[orangefog]

I think Melo’s brethren in terms of historical greatness are going to be guys like Nique, Gervin, Alex English, Dame Lillard, TMac, etc. Which is still very elite company.

Is Barkley in that group?

 

[OrangeDW]

Is Barkley in that group?

I think he’s better than all those guys.

But Pippen would fit into that group.

 

[Eric15]

Is Barkley in that group?

ESPN has Barkley 22nd all time.

 

[DoctorBombay]

But from a pure pound-for-pound boxing debate perspective, I think there are very reasonable arguments to be made for both guys.

Arguments can be made, sure.
But, IMHO, pound-for-pound Cassius Clay/Muhammad Ali is the no-doubt-about-it GOAT.
The fight vs Cleveland "Big Cat" Williams is the greatest display of boxing prowess I have ever seen. Mayweather, even in his prime, could not match Ali's power, especially as displayed in that fight.
Ali did it longer, against bigger and better opponents, and even as a heavyweight, I'd put his handspeed up against Floyd's anytime.
Mayweather is not even Top 7- I'd take prime Roy Jones Jr and Sugar Ray Leonard over him as well. JMHO

 

[miamicuse]

where is Robert Horry? He got 7 rings, is he even top 200?

 

[Eric15]

where is Robert Horry? He got 7 rings, is he even top 200?

Career 7 ppg game, never an All-Star. I know he was very clutch, but probably not.

I once talked to him at LaGuardia -- we were at the same gate. We reminisced about our respective big shots in the NBA Finals and college intramurals.

 

[sufandu]

Yeah, no dice on top 30 for me. I don't actually think it's particularly close, either. Maybe you can make an argument for top 60, but that's about it. Like I noted, at best, he's the fourth best SF since he was drafted (Bron, KD, Kawhi, Melo). At best. You start adding in the other stars even from his draft class and onwards and you are also talking Steph, CP3, Harden, Giannis, Jokic, Embiid, Dame, etc. It gets deep pretty quickly.

No shame in being top 75 though.

I'm largely with you. What I have a problem with today is people acting as if anyone outside the top 10 is irrelevant and other people acting as if putting a guy outside the top 10 is some huge insult.

One question, and this isn't me trying to be difficult, you put Kawhi ahead of him? I know he's got the two championships, but Melo has so much more longevity/durability. I admit I don't watch a ton of NBA and haven't really watched Kawhi play that much. Do you think he's better than Melo with both of them at their peak?

 

[DoctorBombay]

I'm largely with you. What I have a problem with today is people acting as if anyone outside the top 10 is irrelevant and other people acting as if putting a guy outside the top 10 is some huge insult.

One question, and this isn't me trying to be difficult, you put Kawhi ahead of him? I know he's got the two championships, but Melo has so much more longevity/durability. I admit I don't watch a ton of NBA and haven't really watched Kawhi play that much. Do you think he's better than Melo with both of them at their peak?

No, he is not.
But Kawhi beats Melo on the "intangibles". He's not as spectacular, or as good a scorer, and Melo definitely has better skills, but Kawhi's all around game is extremely effective.
Dollars to donuts though, I'd still take Melo over him.

 

[sufandu]

No, he is not.
But Kawhi beats Melo on the "intangibles". He's not as spectacular, or as good a scorer, and Melo definitely has better skills, but Kawhi's all around game is extremely effective.
Dollars to donuts though, I'd still take Melo over him.

I've heard some commentators talk about Kawhi as an elite defender when he's been healthy. Does that change it for you, or is Melo's offense just too elite?

 

[DoctorBombay]

I've heard some commentators talk about Kawhi as an elite defender when he's been healthy. Does that change it for you, or is Melo's offense just too elite?

Given a choice, I'd take Melo.

 

[Orangezoo]

Yeah, no dice on top 30 for me. I don't actually think it's particularly close, either. Maybe you can make an argument for top 60, but that's about it. Like I noted, at best, he's the fourth best SF since he was drafted (Bron, KD, Kawhi, Melo). At best. You start adding in the other stars even from his draft class and onwards and you are also talking Steph, CP3, Harden, Giannis, Jokic, Embiid, Dame, etc. It gets deep pretty quickly.

No shame in being top 75 though.

The more this drags on the more I think you probably have to look at rankings by decade or quarter century etc. There is so much deviation in terms of the number of teams in the league at the time, style of play, rule changes over the years and I could go on.

It's all a fun exercise but also hard to truly break it down over such a long period where the evolution of the game was fluid.

 

[Vshukla]

Arguments can be made, sure.
But, IMHO, pound-for-pound Cassius Clay/Muhammad Ali is the no-doubt-about-it GOAT.
The fight vs Cleveland "Big Cat" Williams is the greatest display of boxing prowess I have ever seen. Mayweather, even in his prime, could not match Ali's power, especially as displayed in that fight.
Ali did it longer, against bigger and better opponents, and even as a heavyweight, I'd put his handspeed up against Floyd's anytime.
Mayweather is not even Top 7- I'd take prime Roy Jones Jr and Sugar Ray Leonard over him as well. JMHO

Mayweather’s in ring skills are as good as anybody who ever set foot in a ring. What keeps me from listing him as an all time great is that he never had that fight against a rival where he had to dig deep and go that extra mile. To me what separates Ali from the rest (in addition to his unmatched cultural impact) is that he kept going against guys like Frazier and Foreman.

That is what made the early/mid-80’s so much fun. The best fought the best in epic battles. I think if you put prime Floyd in that era, he is not able to deal with Duran’s relentless pressure, he is out worked by Leonard, and Hitman Hearns obliterates him.

As far as Melo and where he ranks, I really don’t know if he is 50, 60 or 70 and it could be debated all day. All I know is that he was a great player, should be a first ballot hall of famer, he is a positive force in the community, he represents SU well and bleeds Orange. He led us to our only NC and will always be Cuse royalty.

 

[MikeSU02]

I'm largely with you. What I have a problem with today is people acting as if anyone outside the top 10 is irrelevant and other people acting as if putting a guy outside the top 10 is some huge insult.

One question, and this isn't me trying to be difficult, you put Kawhi ahead of him? I know he's got the two championships, but Melo has so much more longevity/durability. I admit I don't watch a ton of NBA and haven't really watched Kawhi play that much. Do you think he's better than Melo with both of them at their peak?

IMO, Kawhi is better than Melo at his peak by a significant amount. Let me get really crazy, I think you can argue Kawhi was better *at his peak* than KD. Kawhi is arguably the greatest wing defender *at his peak* of all time and did it during the era where wings were the most important and talented players.

I’m also someone who thinks Pippen is always criminally underrated.

As it pertains to Melo v Kawhi, at their peak, there is no comparison for me. But if you count longevity and health, that’s a different discussion.

Re your comment about being top 10, totally agree.

Back to Melo, one other hot take (or maybe not so hot take) is that the best argument for putting him higher is that once the 2010s came around, he was playing in a league much more talented and better coaches than anything MJ or Bird/Magic played against in terms of depth.

 

[Orangezoo]

IMO, Kawhi is better than Melo at his peak by a significant amount. Let me get really crazy, I think you can argue Kawhi was better *at his peak* than KD. Kawhi is arguably the greatest wing defender *at his peak* of all time and did it during the era where wings were the most important and talented players.

I’m also someone who thinks Pippen is always criminally underrated.

As it pertains to Melo v Kawhi, at their peak, there is no comparison for me. But if you count longevity and health, that’s a different discussion.

Re your comment about being top 10, totally agree.

Back to Melo, one other hot take (or maybe not so hot take) is that the best argument for putting him higher is that once the 2010s came around, he was playing in a league much more talented and better coaches than anything MJ or Bird/Magic played against in terms of depth.

One thing to consider with both Kawhi and Melo is there is inherent unconscious bias for ranking guys outside the obvious GOATs based on where they played.

Imagine if Kawhi was a Laker or Celtic or Warrior etc out of college. Team success paired with the specific market is impossible to avoid as a source of skewing the view. If the aforementioned happen Kawhi is maybe in GOAT territory? Just saying...

Look at Joker. He is at a franchise and in a market that would not be where it is had Melo not been what he was and really solidified Denver as a true basketball city.

Stockton and Malone are well regarded but where is Utah without them? Kawhi benefitted coming in when the Spurs were really elevated as a top basketball franchise with Robinson, Duncan and Parker.

Had Melo gone to Detroit and helped them spearhead winning a few rings before Lebron did his work... it would have made a big difference in his perception. He also likely may have even been a different player from an all around standpoint with real pros who played hard on both ends around him.

The deeper you dig into this discussion the more questions that come about.

 

[MikeSU02]

One thing to consider with both Kawhi and Melo is there is inherent unconscious bias for ranking guys outside the obvious GOATs based on where they played.

Imagine if Kawhi was a Laker or Celtic or Warrior etc out of college. Team success paired with the specific market is impossible to avoid as a source of skewing the view. If the aforementioned happen Kawhi is maybe in GOAT territory? Just saying...

Look at Joker. He is at a franchise and in a market that would not be where it is had Melo not been what he was and really solidified Denver as a true basketball city.

Stockton and Malone are well regarded but where is Utah without them? Kawhi benefitted coming in when the Spurs were really elevated as a top basketball franchise with Robinson, Duncan and Parker.

Had Melo gone to Detroit and helped them spearhead winning a few rings before Lebron did his work... it would have made a big difference in his perception. He also likely may have even been a different player from an all around standpoint with real pros who played hard on both ends around him.

The deeper you dig into this discussion the more questions that come about.

Detroit clearly should have picked him for their own longevity (imo).

At the same time, I think Melo and Larry Brown may have actually gotten into a fistfight.

 

[RandygoCuse]

Detroit clearly should have picked him for their own longevity (imo).

At the same time, I think Melo and Larry Brown may have actually gotten into a fistfight.

Hey, he thrived under George Karl and I’m sure everyone who’s played for Karl wants to murder him