Center position

[two3zone]

If Battle, White, Gillon, and Howard continue to be excellent for us and we want to have them see as much court time as possible, the obvious solution would be to put Lydon at the 5. If he ends up seeing 25 minutes a game at the 5 there are only 15 other minutes to share at the position.

Who do you have there, how would you break the minuets up and why?

 

[STEVEHOLT]

I think TT should get some decent minutes at the 5. He has the "knack" of knowing what to do out there it would seem.

 

[OrangeYaGladi]

two3, i was about to start a similar thread on this topic. the center position is the most unsettled aspect of the roster.

JB let slip tonight in his presser that he prefers Lydon at the 5. i think you are on the money that we can pencil in Lydon for more than 20 mins per game at the 5.

it really depends on PC's development. if he can be a "rich man's Keita" (as described in another thread), then I think Coleman is the odd man out.

26 mins Lydon, 10 PC, 4 token start minutes for Coleman. (If PC is too raw, then Coleman gets 10-14). Maybe TT in a pinch, but i doubt it come conference play.

The only exception may be against a team with a stout, physically imposing center. Then you'd have to think Coleman gets more time.

Our best offensive lineup means keeping PC or DC off the floor. As long as we aren't getting hurt down low, I think JB will oblige and keep those guys off the floor.

 

[two3zone]

two3, i was about to start a similar thread on this topic. the center position is the most unsettled aspect of the roster.

JB let slip tonight in his presser that he prefers Lydon at the 5. i think you are on the money that we can pencil in Lydon for more than 20 mins per game at the 5.

it really depends on PC's development. if he can be a "rich man's Keita" (as described in another thread), then I think Coleman is the odd man out.

26 mins Lydon, 10 PC, 4 token start minutes for Coleman. (If PC is too raw, then Coleman gets 10-14). Maybe TT in a pinch, but i doubt it come conference play.

The only exception may be against a team with a stout, physically imposing center. Then you'd have to think Coleman gets more time.

Our best offensive lineup means keeping PC or DC off the floor. As long as we aren't getting hurt down low, I think JB will oblige and keep those guys off the floor.

I'm pretty much there with you on everything you said.

 

[Brooky03]

I think playing Lydon primarily at the 5 is like using your Shelby Mustang to tow a boat. Yeah, technically it can get the job done, but that's not what it's best at. Why not use the base model, no frills, truck to get the job done and let the Mustang do what the Mustang do?

Everybody remembers Lydon getting all of those blocks in the NCAA Tournament run. What I think some might forget is how many times Lydon had to back off and let big men score in order to stay out of foul trouble. We know UNC had no problem scoring in the paint with their bigs.

I know he's put on muscle, but legitimate ACC bigs are going to get deep position on him on a somewhat regular basis. If opposing guards can get the ball to their bigs against Lydon, he's going to be put into some very tough situations. Why not let Coleman and Chukwu absorb those fouls or use their strength (DC2) or height (Chukwu) to defend the paint?

Lydon is the kind of wing defender we dream of in the zone. It's like he was purpose built for it. I just don't see the reason behind potentially playing him 20+ minutes per game at his 2nd best position when he's so good at his 1st best position. I know JB is trying to find ways to get all of his best players on the court at the same time, but this is one of the very rare occasions I'm going to have to disagree with him.

 

[two3zone]

I think playing Lydon primarily at the 5 is like using your Shelby Mustang to tow a boat. Yeah, technically it can get the job done, but that's not what it's best at. Why not use the base model, no frills, truck to get the job done and let the Mustang do what the Mustang do?

Everybody remembers Lydon getting all of those blocks in the NCAA Tournament run. What I think some might forget is how many times Lydon had to back off and let big men score in order to stay out of foul trouble. We know UNC had no problem scoring in the paint with their bigs.

I know he's put on muscle, but legitimate ACC bigs are going to get deep position on him on a somewhat regular basis. If opposing guards can get the ball to their bigs against Lydon, he's going to be put into some very tough situations. Why not let Coleman and Chukwu absorb those fouls or use their strength (DC2) or height (Chukwu) to defend the paint?

Lydon is the kind of wing defender we dream of in the zone. It's like he was purpose built for it. I just don't see the reason behind potentially playing him 20+ minutes per game at his 2nd best position when he's so good at his 1st best position. I know JB is trying to find ways to get all of his best players on the court at the same time, but this is one of the very rare occasions I'm going to have to disagree with him.

Our defensive struggles inside last year don't fall on Lydon alone, DC was just as bad at defense down there if not worse than Lydon was.

When it comes down to defense I still would put Lydon above DC.

 

[SoBeCuse]

Our defensive struggles inside last year don't fall on Lydon alone, DC was just as bad at defense down there if not worse than Lydon was.

When it comes down to defense I still would put Lydon above DC.

Right. He'll try Coleman and Chukwu in there but it will take a lot of trust and constant progress to keep them there, imo. That's just how JB rolls. He isn't just going to 'hope' for it to happen. Also, JB seems to like to vehemently defend his decision re: Lydon at the 5 last year. He will stick with it this year.

 

[HoustonCuse]

I was saying Lydon would play some 5 all summer but after what we have seen (limited amount) our need isn't going to be making a very good offense great it is going to be making a bad defense average. In that light, PC represents the most upside at the 5. He will change games on that end but he will not be able to bang with the 250 lb and up centers we'll see so DC is going to have to play as well. They will get every chance to improve and show they can handle it before Lydon would get more than situational minutes at the 5 in my opinion.

 

[SoBristol]

The question might be adjusted -- what will JB do in the 6 or 8 most competitive regular season games, and in the tournament games?

In the other 20 or so, I expect he will do what he has been doing. Play 9 guys, work different combinations depending on strengths of the opposing big men , and depending on score & situation. Give Coleman a starting role, and play Chukwu 10 or so minutes to see how he develops (both ends of the court).
Thompson isn't playing the center of the zone when Lydon is in the game (and obviously not when one of the other centers plays).

In highly competitive games, it will be more of Lydon in the center of the zone, absent foul trouble.

 

[jordoo]

I think TT should get some decent minutes at the 5. He has the "knack" of knowing what to do out there it would seem.

I think TT is another factor that could hinder Coleman and Chukwu's minutes. He offers size, rebounding and mid/low post scoring. With him and Lydon together at the 4/5 we are still pretty big weather its Roby or White at the other forward spot.

 

[jordoo]

The question might be adjusted -- what will JB do in the 6 or 8 most competitive regular season games, and in the tournament games?

In the other 20 or so, I expect he will do what he has been doing. Play 9 guys, work different combinations depending on strengths of the opposing big men , and depending on score & situation. Give Coleman a starting role, and play Chukwu 10 or so minutes to see how he develops (both ends of the court).
Thompson isn't playing the center of the zone when Lydon is in the game (and obviously not when one of the other centers plays).

In highly competitive games, it will be more of Lydon in the center of the zone, absent foul trouble.

I can almost promise you that in those 6-8 games Coleman is coming out at the first whistle and White is sliding to the 3. The question is does Chukwu develop enough to be the guy coming in if we are playing a team with major size.

 

[Newhouser]

I think Lydon is smart enought to play 20-25 at the 5. I think PC, TT or DC pick up the slack with PC the first option and TT passing DC as the next option.

 

[NYCorange]

If Battle, White, Gillon, and Howard continue to be excellent for us and we want to have them see as much court time as possible, the obvious solution would be to put Lydon at the 5. If he ends up seeing 25 minutes a game at the 5 there are only 15 other minutes to share at the position.

Who do you have there, how would you break the minuets up and why?

Totally agree that this is the biggest question right now. I on defense, Lydon at the 3 or 4 is ideal. The problem is on offense. He's not really as effective as he could be playing the 3, and Roberson has a lock-down on minutes at the 4, so that leaves the 5, which is probably not ideal because now we have 2 good centers riding the bench unused.

I think that one of the main determining factors for whether we become a truly great team is going to be whether Lydon can learn to play the 3 effectively. He'll obviously play it differently than Malachi did last year, but if he can do enough to punish teams that put a 6'3 guy on him, and give us some scoring punch, it will really unlock this team defensively.

I think the other question is whether Andrew White figures it out on D enough to allow us to be really good. Currently, he's clearly pretty lost, although I've already seen good progress since the first exhibition. I think he will, but if he gives back as many points as he scores, it's gonna be hard for us to be really good.

 

[jordoo]

Totally agree that this is the biggest question right now. I on defense, Lydon at the 3 or 4 is ideal. The problem is on offense. He's not really as effective as he could be playing the 3, and Roberson has a lock-down on minutes at the 4, so that leaves the 5, which is probably not ideal because now we have 2 good centers riding the bench unused.

I think that one of the main determining factors for whether we become a truly great team is going to be whether Lydon can learn to play the 3 effectively. He'll obviously play it differently than Malachi did last year, but if he can do enough to punish teams that put a 6'3 guy on him, and give us some scoring punch, it will really unlock this team defensively.

I think the other question is whether Andrew White figures it out on D enough to allow us to be really good. Currently, he's clearly pretty lost, although I've already seen good progress since the first exhibition. I think he will, but if he gives back as many points as he scores, it's gonna be hard for us to be really good.

Really good post. Lydon at the 3 needs to make teams pay inside.

As far as White on defense I think he is a student of the game. You could almost see he had watched tape since the first game and gone over it with the coaches. He's thinking about the right thing to do and the right place to be. He's giving good effort on the court and off on defense IMO. It will take a while for him to be able to just play the defense rather than think it. I feel like he will never be a great defender in his one season at SU but he will be passable and much better than he is now.

 

[nccusefan]

The versatility of this team is a great problem to have. PC is getting minutes now to see what he can do in an actual game. He definitely is raw but his he has tremendous height, athletic ability, and upside. Coleman will get more minutes at the 5 once we start playing tougher competition but ultimately it's going to be a matchup thing. If we play teams that are bigger with a true center I expect to see more Coleman and PC in there. If we press I expect to see Lydon or PC at the 5. If we play smaller teams I expect to see more Lydon and TT. Good thing is we have players to match up with almost anyone and foul trouble shouldn't be a problem.

 

[OrangeYaGladi]

Best offensive lineup right now:

Gillon OR Frank (probably slight edge Gillon)
Battle
White
Roberson
Lydon

 

[RF2044]

Best offensive lineup right now:

Gillon OR Frank (probably slight edge Gillon)
Battle
White
Roberson
Lydon

Agreed, but with the caveat that it is a MAJOR edge to Gillon. He is much better offensively overall than Frank [who I also love], in terms of their respective capabilities. I view Frank as a 4-5 ppg 4-5 apg type when it is all said and done, whereas Gillon could significantly exceed that.

 

[Trueblue25]

Thompson's definitely gonna be shackled with a spiked collar to JB's doghouse but the kid looks great. I think he's the next Hak.

 

[SoBristol]

... on defense, Lydon at the 3 or 4 is ideal. The problem is on offense. He's not really as effective as he could be playing the 3, and Roberson has a lock-down on minutes at the 4, so that leaves the 5, which is probably not ideal because now we have 2 good centers riding the bench unused.

I think that one of the main determining factors for whether we become a truly great team is going to be whether Lydon can learn to play the 3 effectively. ... if he can do enough to punish teams that put a 6'3 guy on him, and give us some scoring punch, it will really unlock this team defensively.

...

That is a good way to put the question, and I would add a few angles. At 6ft 9, and a solid 220 lbs, Lydon is effective powering inside on offense. Do you want him on the perimeter or using his size to score inside? When he provides that inside dimension, the team can have a PG, Battle & White on the perimeter. Those line-ups add to the team's ball movement on the perimeter, provide another shooting threat and another driving threat, and give better balance of inside and outside scoring.

You end up with fewer minutes for Chukwu/Coleman, but the other way you limit White or Battle, so why do that?

Then consider how Louisville & Virginia Tech will pressure our guards, in ways we have not seen yet. You can't play the big line-up (with Lydon at the 3) against teams that can bring pressure.

 

[SoBeCuse]

Thompson reminds me of a more polished, fluid, and athletic Rick Jackson at the same stage. You can see how Michigan St wanted him. Reminds me of a Sparty or Ohio St. solid big.

We have some good tests coming up. Our offense has NOT been tested by a good defense yet. We need to temper expectations at least a little until we see how they perform vs a good defense. South Carolina will play in your face defense with Frank Martin there. Smaller, athletic lineup like Villanova. No shame in Wisconsin losing at Creighton. That's a TOUGH matchup and a tough place to play. They are experienced and have Happ/Hayes inside who won't be fearing our frontline, even with Chukwu, imo. Happ killed us last year. Hayes is really strong.

 

[TinyManInside]

Lydon is going to play a lot of minutes at center this year.

 

[Dave85]

If Battle, White, Gillon, and Howard continue to be excellent for us and we want to have them see as much court time as possible, the obvious solution would be to put Lydon at the 5. If he ends up seeing 25 minutes a game at the 5 there are only 15 other minutes to share at the position.

Who do you have there, how would you break the minuets up and why?

More minutes for Taurean Thompson. I just like the way he looks out on the court. He's really good on offense.

 

[Dave85]

The good thing about having Lydon, Coleman, Thompson, and Chukwu playing center is they can play aggressive because we have so many fouls to give at that position. The other thing is on any given night we can play the guys that best match up to our opponents.

 

[SoBeCuse]

The good thing about having Lydon, Coleman, Thompson, and Chukwu playing center is they can play aggressive because we have so many fouls to give at that position. The other thing is on any given night we can play the guys that best match up to our opponents.

True, IF they use those fouls. Coleman and Lydon (not Lyndon's fault) were really bad in there last year and would just let guys go around them and score or let themselves get wedged/buried inside. They may have been told not to foul much though since we had no depth and zero margin for error last year.

 

[chugg21]

I think playing Lydon primarily at the 5 is like using your Shelby Mustang to tow a boat. Yeah, technically it can get the job done, but that's not what it's best at. Why not use the base model, no frills, truck to get the job done and let the Mustang do what the Mustang do?

Everybody remembers Lydon getting all of those blocks in the NCAA Tournament run. What I think some might forget is how many times Lydon had to back off and let big men score in order to stay out of foul trouble. We know UNC had no problem scoring in the paint with their bigs.

I know he's put on muscle, but legitimate ACC bigs are going to get deep position on him on a somewhat regular basis. If opposing guards can get the ball to their bigs against Lydon, he's going to be put into some very tough situations. Why not let Coleman and Chukwu absorb those fouls or use their strength (DC2) or height (Chukwu) to defend the paint?

Lydon is the kind of wing defender we dream of in the zone. It's like he was purpose built for it. I just don't see the reason behind potentially playing him 20+ minutes per game at his 2nd best position when he's so good at his 1st best position. I know JB is trying to find ways to get all of his best players on the court at the same time, but this is one of the very rare occasions I'm going to have to disagree with him.

For the same reason that you put Draymond at the 5 when you had full size 5s in Ezeli/Bogut. If he can play even remotely adequate defense, then you have unlocked your offense from playing 4 on 5 & also pull the opposing teams 5 to the perimeter and just makes scoring easier for every other player. Its the way that the NBA now functions and imagine we will continue to see more of in NCAA.