Chuckwu and Fab Melo

[longislandcuse]

Chukwu has definitely stepped up but dude has a 50/50 shot at making a lay up while Fab Melo was out there throwing down alley-oops and a 360.

 

[Jake]

Yes, this.

Which are WAAAAAY more valuable than a blocked shot.
It's a turnover & a foul for the other team, and you get the ball back 100% of the time.

Fab seemed to draw like 2-3 charges a game.

It's simply not true that charges are more valuable than blocked shots.

It depends on other factors. If the blocked shot ends up out of bounds, then yes.

But good shot blockers keep the ball in play which often leads to fast break easy baskets. Which our offense needs more than simply another possession (and has so for quite a few years).

A charge assesses a foul on an opposing player, but is simply a turnover with the defense allowed to set up. Given the rather small pct of "foul outs" in a season, it rarely forces an opposing player out of the game. Especially better players that referees are often hesitant to disqualify.

Fab like to spike the ball into the stands...so Fab taking a charge was better than Fab blocking a shot.

But give me an Etan Thomas type of shot blocker all day long. He kept 75% of his in play.

He was a game changer every night he took the court.

 

[Fat tire 13]

Yes, he was the best flopper (by far) that Boeheim ever put on the court. Shumpert was also good at flopping, but Melo was in a league of his own.

Maybe because he is Brazilian and learned from playing soccer?

 

[HSPORANGE]

Well that’s useless now that JB has decided we can’t beat anyone down the floor on offense.

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you. Try smiling once in a while, you may enjoy it.

 

[two3zone]

The thing with Fab is, he was on the court with 4 other guys who could score and still had an impact on offense.

I love advanced stats, stats in general and they have their place, but in basketball you need the eye test as well.

I cant see how anybody could ever compare the two guys because they're not even close.

 

[Jake]

The thing with Fab is, he was on the court with 4 other guys who could score and still had an impact on offense.

I love advanced stats, stats in general and they have their place, but in basketball you need the eye test as well.

I cant see how anybody could ever compare the two guys because they're not even close.

I think the point the OP was trying to make is that statistically, they're pretty close. Which is surprising.

However, knowing Mason, I'm sure he'd take sophomore Fab over Chuckwu all day long and twice on Sundays.

 

[721Comstock]

I think the point the OP was trying to make is that statistically, they're pretty close. Which is surprising.

However, knowing Mason, I'm sure he'd take sophomore Fab over Chukwu all day long and twice on Sundays.

Any sane human being would.

Even if you called them a wash defensively -
to which I'd still say Fab was much, much better overall in that regard; he did win Big East Defensive POY after all -
there's no denying that Fab was a far superior offensive player.

Also, in response to your other reply - you and I have VASTLY differing memories of Etan's blocks.
I recall him sending lots of them into the cheap seats.
Which is really hard to do at the Dome.

 

[Jake]

Any sane human being would.

Even if you called them a wash defensively -
to which I'd still say Fab was much, much better overall in that regard; he did win Big East Defensive POY after all -
there's no denying that Fab was a far superior offensive player.

Also, in response to your other reply - you and I have VASTLY differing memories of Etan's blocks.
I recall him sending lots of them into the cheap seats.
Which is really hard to do at the Dome.

I just remember him swatting them straight down rather than "out". Resulted in more retrievable blocks. But there's not stat kept for this so it's obviously in the eye of the rememberer.

 

[Knicks411]

I don't want to say I told you so, but I made this exact comparison as soon as Chukwu transferred here. Using the Ken Pom player comps, the second most similar player to Pascal in his one year at Providence was Fab's freshmen year.

I'm taking at least half credit for this

 

[General20]

Interesting comparison here between Pascal and Fab at the end of the out-of-conference portion of the schedule for Fab (2011-2012) and Pascal (2017-18).

Through 15 non-conference games in 2011-02 Fab (SO) had played a total of 688 minutes of college basketball.

Through the end of non-conference this year, Pascal (JR) has played a total of 772 minutes of college basketball.

So effectively they have very similar game experience, with Pascal having logged 84 more minutes in total. So this seems like a good place to compare their productivity. [The caveat is of course that PC lost a year to injury and also has a lot more practice time because he sat out a year for transfer. The transfer year could obviously been seen as a benefit but the eye injury was clearly a major setback. Offsetting, maybe?].

Anyway, at the end of the non-conference schedule in Fab's final season and where PC is now, here is the 'in season' comparison:

Pascal /// Fab
25.3 mpg /// 24.0 mpg
64.3% fg /// 51.8% fg
56.4% ft /// 50.0% ft
6.1 rbg /// 5.6 rbg
3.3 bs /// 2.1 bs
5.8 ppg /// 6.7 ppg

Here are the per 40s:

Pascal /// Fab
9.5 rbg /// 9.3 rbg
5.2 bs /// 3.5 bs
9.2 ppg /// 11.2 ppg

Wow! Very similar. Fab a better scorer (though not quite as efficiently as PC), and PC a better shot blocker. Rebounding almost dead even.

-Mason

Interesting to note (but not shown) - Fab showed steady improvement during the OOC portion of the schedule that year and even picked up his productivity in nearly every category when league play came, which is pretty impressive because that's rarely seen in SU players. It would be awesome if PC can do the same this year, considering that he too has shown steady improvement during the OOC portion of the schedule.

(one note here, I haven't compared relative SOS of the 2011-12 and 2017-18 seasons)

Those stats seem to accurately reflect what my eyes tell me.

Chukwu is a better shot blocker (he has a chance to be the best shot blocker we've ever had before its all said and done) and a better rebounder (Fab was a terrible rebounder for his size and athleticism).

Fab is a slightly better scorer than Chukwu (but he never realized his potential on O, so he's not as much better offensively as he should have been).

Fab's biggest advantage over Chukwu is something you won't see in stats, he was the best center we've ever had (along with Watkins) at shutting down the guy he was guarding.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

Interesting thread. I wonder how much we are all projecting some of our memories of Fab. For instance, I remember Fab being much better his sophomore season blocking some shots to keep them inbounds.

I feel like chukwu gets many blocks without jumping, but I remember Fab going really high to get some.

They both seem to be able to affect shots without getting the block and that helps just as much

 

[Chicago44s]

Yes, he was the best flopper (by far) that Boeheim ever put on the court. Shumpert was also good at flopping, but Melo was in a league of his own.

Go check out tape of Dave Siock, "Vestal's Finest" . No dude could flop like my man.

 

[reedny]

Chukwu's advanced metrics rate him as one of the best defensive players in the country. He's currently 8th in the NCAA in blocks, first on Box/Plus Minus, and 3rd in the NCAA in block percentage. He's a big reason why Virginia Tech only attempted 22 two point shots on Sunday.

Chukwu's much more awkward athletically than Fab was, has trouble seeing and catching the ball, is no where near as strong as FAb and is not at Fab's level offensively (even though their numbers are not all the different). Fab had low-block moves and a mid-range jumper. Chukwu, currently, has a baby hook and an over and under, but doesn't use either much as he's struggling with the basics (catching the ball, keeping it up high, establishing position, setting and keeping a pivot foot, etc..).

The good news is ... Chukwu's going to get a lot better. He's struggling with the glasses, obviously. I do like his positioning in the zone -- defensively he's playing very well and changes the game, IMO. He's moving well out to the corner and up to the FL and he's staying in games lately. he's starting to find success at the foul line, which tells me that he can shoot. I would LOVE to see him start taking some foul line jumpers rather than handing it off every time. He's no where near his ceiling offensively. He needs to get used to the glasses he has or get some new ones, because he's not seeing the ball that well ... although he is posting up.

I'd like to see our guards get him the ball more when he posts up. I'd like to see him start taking short/mid-range jumpers (if open) b/c his foul-shooting form tells me he can hit that shot. And I'd like to see him work on catching the ball better and KEEEPING it up higher so he can make some moves on the low block.

 

[rrlbees]

 

[Orangezoo]

I'm sure there are many factors for the improvements this season beyond the kids themselves but have to think that Griffin has brought something with him for sure. Coming from a gritty Dayton program and seeing how much our kids are getting after it, and working to get better makes me love adding him to the mix even more.

Also, when you see him interact with guys in timeouts and on the bench, he really has their attention.

 

[realorange]

Chukwu's much more awkward athletically than Fab was, has trouble seeing and catching the ball, is no where near as strong as FAb and is not at Fab's level offensively (even though their numbers are not all the different). Fab had low-block moves and a mid-range jumper. Chukwu, currently, has a baby hook and an over and under, but doesn't use either much as he's struggling with the basics (catching the ball, keeping it up high, establishing position, setting and keeping a pivot foot, etc..).

The good news is ... Chukwu's going to get a lot better. He's struggling with the glasses, obviously. I do like his positioning in the zone -- defensively he's playing very well and changes the game, IMO. He's moving well out to the corner and up to the FL and he's staying in games lately. he's starting to find success at the foul line, which tells me that he can shoot. I would LOVE to see him start taking some foul line jumpers rather than handing it off every time. Otherwise, he's no where near his ceiling offensively. He needs to get used to the glasses he has or get some new ones, because he's not seeing the ball that well ... although he is posting up. He's also figured out how to seal his man down low to open up driving lanes, and he's able to get some put backs. But there's so much more he can improve on ... this playing time is paying dividends. If only we had a beefy PF that JB could use defensively .. that would allow Chukwu to play more off ball and his blocks would be even higher.

I'd like to see our guards get him the ball more when he posts up. I'd like to see him start taking short/mid-range jumper (if open) b/c his foul-shooting form tells me he can hit that shot. And I'd like to see him work on catching the ball better and KEEEPING it up higher so he can make some moves on the low block.

Agree that Chukwu is going to continue to get better. We can see the progress already beyond what most of us thought.
Does Chukwu have a real issue with the glasses? I haven't heard him quoted as saying there is a problem. Kareem wore them for years with little or no problem.
My only real heartache watching him is the sick feeling I get when he handles the ball. Instead of Griff asking him to take 100 free throws, try throwing him 100 passes and at some point he has to handle 2o without mishandling one.

 

[cliftonparksufan]

I'd like to see our guards get him the ball more when he posts up. I'd like to see him start taking short/mid-range jumpers (if open) b/c his foul-shooting form tells me he can hit that shot. And I'd like to see him work on catching the ball better and KEEEPING it up higher so he can make some moves on the low block.

We all would. But as you say, he needs to work on some things down low. I think he has good hands. He just doesn't have the strength and/or the confidence to go right up with it. I have no explanations for the missed dunks. You might need to be 7'2 to explain it.

 

[two3zone]

Go check out tape of Dave Siock, "Vestal's Finest" . No dude could flop like my man.

There is tape of Siock out there? Haha

 

[TexanMark]

Agree that Chukwu is going to continue to get better. We can see the progress already beyond what most of us thought.
Does Chukwu have a real issue with the glasses? I haven't heard him quoted as saying there is a problem. Kareem wore them for years with little or no problem.
My only real heartache watching him is the sick feeling I get when he handles the ball. Instead of Griff asking him to take 100 free throws, try throwing him 100 passes and at some point he has to handle 2o without mishandling one.

Valid concern...but free throws IMHO was the correct thing to first correct.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

Agree that Chukwu is going to continue to get better. We can see the progress already beyond what most of us thought.
Does Chukwu have a real issue with the glasses? I haven't heard him quoted as saying there is a problem. Kareem wore them for years with little or no problem.
My only real heartache watching him is the sick feeling I get when he handles the ball. Instead of Griff asking him to take 100 free throws, try throwing him 100 passes and at some point he has to handle 2o without mishandling one.

I believe the glasses are both protective and corrective. I keep wondering if they fog up.

 

[Jasoncuse]

He's been far better than I could have imagined. I thought he was going to provide very little outside of 5 fouls, based on how he looked last year.

He's still not a great basketball player, but he understands his role and is much, much, much more of a presence on the defensive end. While he still gets bodied and isn't strong enough inside, he's using his length to disrupt and prevent scoring changes, not necessarily with blocked shots. Just being tall with his arms up is helpful.


The FT contributions have been stunning considering what he was prior. Although, he still only has made multiple FT's in 3 games at SU, it's encouraging that he turned it around. He was a 60% FT shooter at PC, and I expect the 64% clip he's hit since the Kansas game to be closer to what his true ability is. He's not a 1-15 guy like he started his SU career with.

His improvement and contributions have been amplified by Sidibe's likely season ending injury. We've needed every minutes he's given and he's adding positive contributions to winning games.

I just wish he could finish inside with more regularity. A 7'2" guy shouldn't miss uncontested dunks, ever.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

He's been far better than I could have imagined. I thought he was going to provide very little outside of 5 fouls, based on how he looked last year.

He's still not a great basketball player, but he understands his role and is much, much, much more of a presence on the defensive end. While he still gets bodied and isn't strong enough inside, he's using his length to disrupt and prevent scoring changes, not necessarily with blocked shots. Just being tall with his arms up is helpful.


The FT contributions have been stunning considering what he was prior. Although, he still only has made multiple FT's in 3 games at SU, it's encouraging that he turned it around. He was a 60% FT shooter at PC, and I expect the 64% clip he's hit since the Kansas game to be closer to what his true ability is. He's not a 1-15 guy like he started his SU career with.

His improvement and contributions have been amplified by Sidibe's likely season ending injury. We've needed every minutes he's given and he's adding positive contributions to winning games.

I just wish he could finish inside with more regularity. A 7'2" guy shouldn't miss uncontested dunks, ever.

Going against a guy almost as tall tonight. Should be interesting to see how he does.

 

[FrancoPizza]

Then they need to do this for layups and dunks as well.

 

[OrangeinBoston]

Jeez...you guys have a very different memory of Fab than I do. I remember a big blob of nothingness. I think Paschal has a much higher upside.

 

[MSOrange]

Then they need to do this for layups and dunks as well.

As frustrating as that is to even say about a 7-2 guy, you're right. Just can't afford to keep losing points inside. Although I overall agree with Jasoncuse post about his performance this year.