Classic 'Cuse -- Phenomenal 87 / 89 NCAA tournament games -- recap

[RF2044]

In light of some of the disappointment that's set in since the season has gotten off to a shaky start, I wanted to share something a little more fun.

Last week, my dad traveled to visit the grand kids for an extended weekend. At night after the kids were in bed, we took the opportunity to watch a pair of old SU NCAA tournament games -- the '87 elite eight game against North Carolina, and the '89 sweet sixteen game against Missouri. Both games were classics from when I was in high school--and I'd worn out the VCR tapes rewatching them back in the days, but hadn't watched either one in several years.

First of all, both teams were loaded, and were playing against opponents that were similarly loaded. All four teams were chock full of pros, and many of those who didn't make it to the NBA were recognizable college impact players. A couple of quick observations about the games:

• Man, was it easy to score back then! Both teams played effortless offense and really pushed the tempo. No surprise, because the greatest point guard in program history--the incomparable Sherman Douglas, #20--quarterbacked both squads

• Derrick Coleman was sick. What a player! Even as a frosh, he went toe-to-toe with JR Reid and held up well. In the Missouri game [his junior year], he was unstoppable against a HUGE front line, until he got into foul trouble

• The '87 squad featured a starting lineup where ALL FIVE STARTERS were double figure scorers. Talk about weapons!

• We were the #2 seed in that game, playing against UNC who was the #1 seed. UNC had one of those airport squads, with lots of players who were 6-10 and above. They also had first team all american Kenny Smith as their point guard. Very good team--obviously, since they were a #1 seed. But I doubt that they ran into too many other teams with BETTER frontcourts and a BETTER lead guard--which is exactly what happened that day

• Rony Seikaly was unstoppable. He was hitting turn around jump shots, baseline shots, etc. that he never hit at any other point in his career, including the NBA. It is almost like he sold his soul for that NCAA tournament performance... but damn, was he good that tourney

• I'd forgotten how solid of a player Howard Triche was. Despite playing the 3 at only 6-5, he was a broad shouldered, strong kid who rebounded well, defended well, and could both take it to the hole and hit mid-range jumpers

• Greg Monroe was "better" than I remembered, too

• Stevie Thompson was really unpolished for a guard-sized player, but damn--could he sky. In both games, he had some athletic scoring plays that were very impressive. Guy is in the top 10 in school scoring history, and he couldn't hit jumpers or free throws

• Obviously, it was nearly 30 years ago, but Jim Boeheim seemed really young. He was very nervous during the UNC game, and showed more emotion on the sideline--a marked contrast to the stoic elder statesman he is on the sidelines these days. The funny thing about this '87 UNC game was that he was coaching against Dean Smith, who was a hall of famer and a college basketball coaching icon. He might be one now, but Boeheim sure wasn't an icon back then--he was a maligned coach who hadn't won the "big one" up until that point, but this game got him past that hump and into the final four for the first time of his coaching career.

• Billy Owens, even as a frosh, was disgustingly talented. Great rebounder, too

• Like UNC, that Missouri team we played was HUGE--with two frontcourt guys who played in the NBA, and several bench guys who stood taller than 6-8. Also like UNC, they probably beat any other team, but not us. As in the UNC matchup, our frontcourt was better than their impressive frontcourt

• I can't say enough about Sherman Douglas. In BOTH games, there were times when the team was struggling and he would just take over. Very unorthodox player, but man--he was exciting to watch. And what a competitor...

• I know its been a staple in our offensive repertoire ever since he played, but no other player could throw the lob pass like he could. Period.

• We went on an 18-2 run in the second half against Missouri to blow open a close game. Their players / coaches were in shocked disbelief while it was happening

• The quality of play overall was so much better back then. Players today might be a little more cut, since they start lifting earlier, but the skill level was FAR superior in college ball back then.

In any event, it was a lot of fun to relive good memories, and to watch how fantastic of an offensive club we were back in the day. I'd also like to thank syracusefan.com's PoppyHart, from whom I procured DVD recordings awhile back to replace those old, worn out VHS tapes [thanks, Poppy!].

Let's Go Orange!!!

 

[jordoo]

awesome stuff! Thanks.

 

[cmr27]

Great post. In addition to the lob, Sherm had a patented spin move going to the hole that worked once or twice a game. He was great at using his strength to get separation even though he wasn't that big. Teams were more complete then. I miss those days.

 

[cliftonparksufan]

Amazing how it's a whole different game now. Even though the 3 pt rule was in effect then, it hadn't evolved into what it is today. Very few players now have a mid range game. All they want to do is shoot three pointers or dunk the ball. Also very few players left early for the NBA. Derrick Coleman would never stay four years in college today. College basketball is as popular as every but it's a shame what the game has turned into. Also Rony Seikaly was an amazing talent. People forget how good he really was.

 

[orange79]

I was at the 87 UNC game, along with the preceding game SU vs. Florida (who featured Dwayne Schintzius - he of the masterful mullet

who talked trash about us before the game for as long as anyone would listen, along with Vernon Maxwell). Rony shut down Schintzius, and shut him up, too.

Anyway, back on topic. I attended the UNC game with a good friend of mine, a huge UNC fan. Such a great ending to that game. Watching the team dump the bucket on JB after time ran out (and as Seikaly said, washed the monkey off his back) was soooooo sweet.

 

[rstone7727]

Thanks RF, That brought me back to a time when it seems every team had 3-4 seniors and no one knew about "One N Done"... In those days CBB was special as you got to see players develop over four years, not just Cuse players but players around the country. Unfortunately, times have changed and with it, the thrill of CBB has suffered.

 

[Col. Bleep]

I was at the 87 UNC game, along with the preceding game SU vs. Florida (who featured Dwayne Schintzius - he of the masterful mullet

who talked trash about us before the game for as long as anyone would listen, along with Vernon Maxwell). Rony shut down Schintzius, and shut him up, too.

Anyway, back on topic. I attended the UNC game with a good friend of mine, a huge UNC fan. Such a great ending to that game. Watching the team dump the bucket on JB after time ran out (and as Seikaly said, washed the monkey off his back) was soooooo sweet.

I was sitting right under one basket.
It seemed every time Schinztius (may he rest in peace) turned around...Seikaly was jamming the ball in his face.
Seikaly had 33 that game.

The UNC game featured one of the most electrifying plays ever...DC blocking a Kenny Smith jumper...grabbing the ball in the air and in one motion tossing the outlet to Douglas...then down the other end for a Seikaly slam. Never seen a better break.

And the post game news conference was classic. Somehow Boeheim got off on a tangent criticizing something the team did. All of a sudden Seiklay interrupted and said, "Coach, we just won! We didn't lose!" And the room broke up.

Boom!

 

[MSOrange]

That era was just amazing RF- by far my favorite Orange hoops time period. I know some people who are too young to experience that time period might wonder how we can love an era when we only made the one final four in 1987. Then. looking at the overall records when losing 7, 8 and 9 games it might be hard to understand just how good those teams were.

But as you said, college basketball as a whole was much better - plus we couldn't make free throws! But Seikaly, Coleman. Owens. Douglas - I could just watch those teams forever. That talent together was just amazing.

 

[RF2044]

I was sitting right under one basket.
It seemed every time Schinztius (may he rest in peace) turned around...Seikaly was jamming the ball in his face.
Seikaly had 33 that game.

The UNC game featured one of the most electrifying plays ever...DC blocking a Kenny Smith jumper...grabbing the ball in the air and in one motion tossing the outlet to Douglas...then down the other end for a Seikaly slam. Never seen a better break.

And the post game news conference was classic. Somehow Boeheim got off on a tangent criticizing something the team did. All of a sudden Seiklay interrupted and said, "Coach, we just won! We didn't lose!" And the room broke up.

Boom!

That play by Coleman was incredible. It was late in the second half, and Smith drove to the basket in transition, got into the lane, and had a seemingly wide open scoop shot. DC ran the play down, swooped in and caught the ball in mid-air. The refs called goaltend, but it was BS. He caught it on the way up. It was such an incredible play, I'm not surprised the refs got the goaltend call wrong.

 

[RF2044]

I was sitting right under one basket.
It seemed every time Schinztius (may he rest in peace) turned around...Seikaly was jamming the ball in his face.
Seikaly had 33 that game.

The UNC game featured one of the most electrifying plays ever...DC blocking a Kenny Smith jumper...grabbing the ball in the air and in one motion tossing the outlet to Douglas...then down the other end for a Seikaly slam. Never seen a better break.

And the post game news conference was classic. Somehow Boeheim got off on a tangent criticizing something the team did. All of a sudden Seiklay interrupted and said, "Coach, we just won! We didn't lose!" And the room broke up.

Boom!

Funny that you mention the press conference! Something I forgot to mention in the original post was the on-court post-game interview, where Rony Seikaly--the game MVP, on a dominating 26 point performance where he repeatedly abused the UNC opposing big men--said:

"I'd like to dedicate this win to Dick Vitale, who said that JR Reid was going to pump fake me into fouling out in the first half."

Classic!

 

[jordoo]

Funny that you mention the press conference! Something I forgot to mention in the original post was the on-court post-game interview, where Rony Seikaly--the game MVP, on a dominating 26 point performance where he repeatedly abused the UNC opposing big men--said:

"I'd like to dedicate this win to Dick Vitale, who said that JR Reid was going to pump fake me into fouling out in the first half."

Classic!

I still remember how much the media hyped that whole JR Reid matchup even though I was only 11 years old. I thought he must be greatest and then when we lined up with UNC I thought he looked small compared to Rony and Derrick.

 

[tee1222]

I was at the 87 UNC game, along with the preceding game SU vs. Florida (who featured Dwayne Schintzius - he of the masterful mullet

Serious. That's old world craftsmanship right there.

 

[SWC75]

Amazing how it's a whole different game now. Even though the 3 pt rule was in effect then, it hadn't evolved into what it is today. Very few players now have a mid range game. All they want to do is shoot three pointers or dunk the ball. Also very few players left early for the NBA. Derrick Coleman would never stay four years in college today. College basketball is as popular as every but it's a shame what the game has turned into. Also Rony Seikaly was an amazing talent. People forget how good he really was.

Basketball used to be about finding an open shot you can make. Now it's about jacking up three pointers or fighting your way through the defense for dunks. That's what makes it so ugly. Players should look at tapes of Lawrence Moten.

 

[CorduroyG]

I wish that unc game was on YouTube, I've never seen it.

 

[im4cuse]

I cannot watch Cuse games live; too upsetting. I had to find a way to be out of the house or otherwise distracted. So back then especially I would tape them and watch if we won. A loss, just tape over it. For example, I never saw the ugly blue uniforms vs. Kentucky because I taped over. This game vs. UNC, I had my wife drag me antique shopping in Leesburg Va. Hated it but it got the job done. Walking around the little village area I happened to peek into a bar that had the game on. Minute or so to go we are up nursing a tiny lead. Had to look away. Once I knew it was over checked again. Then raced home to book flights to New Orleans.
Once at the FF, I actually watched live, breaking my rule. Hey we'd already beaten Prov twice so not so worried. Monday night a different story. Again we are up late (by 3 IIRC) with Triche on the foul line. I turned to her and said "we are gonna win this f***in game". He missed of course and IU scored the last 4 points. I will always wonder if Smart's shot bounces away if I wasn't looking him in the eye from the baseline when he shot it. My bad!

 

[RF2044]

Basketball used to be about finding an open shot you can make. Now it's about jacking up three pointers or fighting your way through the defense for dunks. That's what makes it so ugly.

There's some validity to that. Offensive gameplay seems to have devolved mainly to three point shots and dunks. In other words, ESPN highlight reel stuff.

I also think that the way games are officiated has also "devolved," and enabled a large contingent of coaches to turn the game into scrums that help to neutralize talent differential.

 

[TinyManInside]

• The quality of play overall was so much better back then. Players today might be a little more cut, since they start lifting earlier, but the skill level was FAR superior in college ball back then.

The game was much 'cleaner' back then because the refs didn't let all of the grabbing/pushing/shoving/bumping go the way they do now. I think part of the reason that the players looked more skilled back then is that they were afforded more room to operate and that little cushion makes a big difference in the accuracy of shooting/passing, etc.

 

[jordoo]

The game was much 'cleaner' back then because the refs didn't let all of the grabbing/pushing/shoving/bumping go the way they do now. I think part of the reason that the players looked more skilled back then is that they were afforded more room to operate and that little cushion makes a big difference in the accuracy of shooting/passing, etc.

I think skill level was still generally higher back then but your point is excellent. It often amazes me how players who go to the NBA instantly look 3 times as skilled as they were in college. This is because the NBA has cleaned up its game especially on the perimeter in regards to defense.

 

[cliftonparksufan]

I wish that unc game was on YouTube, I've never seen it.

You can rent it for $3.99 on Amazon. http://www.amazon.com/1987-NCAA-Division-Basketball-Regionals/dp/B00FMFF6XO

I do have that and the Florida game on VHS. Should try and get it transferred onto DVD.

 

[Cusefan0307]

There's some validity to that. Offensive gameplay seems to have devolved mainly to three point shots and dunks. In other words, ESPN highlight reel stuff.

I also think that the way games are officiated has also "devolved," and enabled a large contingent of coaches to turn the game into scrums that help to neutralize talent differential.

1. Talent may be better than it was, but we don't get to keep these guys to develop their skills as much.
2. Analytics has driven the increase of three point shots and shots at the rim. They are the "most efficient" shots in basketball according to the analytics people. That's not going to change.
3. College basketball right now is where the NFL was in the 90's. Defenses ruled the NFL in the 90's and much of that was because although we had pass interference and illegal contact rules, officials basically swallowed their whistles. When they started calling penalties according to the rule book scoring went up. If officials did that now, we might have some longer games for a while, and some guys might foul out, but the game in the long run would be better. Right now in College Basketball too many officials just swallow their whistle.
4. Coaches micro-manage games. Every possession is drawn out compared to the 80's. SWC did a post on the decrease of possessions a few weeks ago.
5. Also style of play is much different. We have less true post guy's playing basketball anywhere. Big's don't nearly touch the ball as much. There is less passing today compared to the 80's. Much of what you see now is a guard playing one on one, sometimes with a screener, and you will see one pass and a shot. This hasn't helped passing on the whole.

 

[OttoMets]

Good post. I saw the Carolina game a month ago for the first time in years. What an incredible level of play - nearly everyone was a more skilled basketball player than anyone we play today. Greg Monroe was way better than I remembered. And our effort was tremendous; a lot of hustle and some ferocious defensive rebounding.

 

[RF2044]

Good post. I saw the Carolina game a month ago for the first time in years. What an incredible level of play - nearly everyone was a more skilled basketball player than anyone we play today. Greg Monroe was way better than I remembered. And our effort was tremendous; a lot of hustle and some ferocious defensive rebounding.

Agreed!

I forgot to mention this above, but given Carolina's depth and our relatively short 7-player rotation, JB was forced to try to match pace with some of Carolina's substitutions by playing the likess of Herman Harried for a few minutes, just so that we could rotate the bigs in and out a bit more. And it worked.

The game was played at an incredible pace, with their NBA caliber bigs battling it out in the post with our NBA caliber bigs. We needed every last bench minute we got to pull out the win. Guys like Stevie Thompson, Derek Brower, and The Chopper might not have played huge minutes in that UNC game, but they were big contributors nonetheless.

 

[dollarbill44]

The game was much 'cleaner' back then because the refs didn't let all of the grabbing/pushing/shoving/bumping go the way they do now. I think part of the reason that the players looked more skilled back then is that they were afforded more room to operate and that little cushion makes a big difference in the accuracy of shooting/passing, etc.

It seemed like more guys fouled out of games back then.

 

[dollarbill44]

• I can't say enough about Sherman Douglas. In BOTH games, there were times when the team was struggling and he would just take over. Very unorthodox player, but man--he was exciting to watch. And what a competitor...

• I know its been a staple in our offensive repertoire ever since he played, but no other player could throw the lob pass like he could. Period.

Let's Go Orange!!!

No one at any level has been as good as he was at the lob (except maybe one of the old-time Harlem Globetrotters). I was a freshman in '87-'88. I saw Sherm throw a 3/4 court alley-oop that was dead-on, balls-accurate. I forget who was on the other end, but it ended with a thunderous dunk. He did things that were unbelievable.

There was another game where he went 1 on 2 on a break where one guy met him at the left elbow and the other guy was on the low block. Sherm spun right to left around the 1st guy, then, without slowing down, spun left to right around the 2nd guy, right into the middle of the lane for a layup. My jaw dropped and I think I may have sharted when I saw that.

It was such a treat to get to see him every game.

 

[SWC75]

2. Analytics has driven the increase of three point shots and shots at the rim. They are the "most efficient" shots in basketball according to the analytics people. That's not going to change.

Which causes the defense to cover them more, which opens up gaps in the defense between the paint and the arc. An open shot is more efficienent than a well-guarded one. I'd like to see this team use more pull-up jumpers. I've already seen more than in past years. It can be a great weapon, especially against a defense not geared to stop it.