Classic 'Cuse -- Phenomenal 87 / 89 NCAA tournament games -- recap

[dyedorange]

For those that are saying the skills of players were much better back then, do you think that's mostly due to the fact that players stuck around four years and developed their skills over time...or were player's skills just inherently more developed? Just curious about this perspective, since I really only started following college hoops in the early '90s.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Which causes the defense to cover them more, which opens up gaps in the defense between the paint and the arc. An open shot is more efficienent than a well-guarded one. I'd like to see this team use more pull-up jumpers. I've already seen more than in past years. It can be a great weapon, especially against a defense not geared to stop it.

A couple years old, but this article is relevant to this discussion.

http://www.ncaa.com/news/basketball-men/article/2012-01-23/line-changed-game

 

[Lawrinson14]

For those that are saying the skills of players were much better back then, do you think that's mostly due to the fact that players stuck around four years and developed their skills over time...or were player's skills just inherently more developed? Just curious about this perspective, since I really only started following college hoops in the early '90s.

I too didn't follow sports until the 90s. However, watch some old game tapes (like the 87 season). It really is spectacular. The following things stood out to me:

1. The players on team A absolutely despised the players on team B. There were no friendly hand shakes. No smiles. The player meant business when on the court. They also did not have the AAU circuit, where all recruits now get to know one another.

2. Related to A, but toughness. It just seemed like the players back then tried harder and didn't put up with any crap.

3. Fundamentals. Players backing down in the post, boxing out for rebounds, hitting 15ft jumpers. You rarely see any of those in today's game.

 

[dyedorange]

Just watched this game again. One thing that stuck out to me was the use of the bounce pass...for entry passes to the post, around the perimeter, really anywhere. You don't see this nearly as much in today's game.

 

[dyedorange]

Another observation...To start the second half, Jim Nantz says something like "Syracuse, *sitting back* in that zone defense..." He does go on to add that it's an "aggressive" zone, but the initial phrase definitely seems to imply that the zone is not, by nature, a very aggressive defense. Like all the SU players are camped out on the court in lawn chairs, drinking lemonade, and hoping, praying that UNC doesn't make them get up out of their comfy seats. Yes, the zone defense: a defense for the man who likes to sit back.

This is petty, I know, but also kind of interesting, as I think the wording people use is very telling about what they really think. And I wouldn't bring this up except I think some people actually DO think zones are not as rigorous, not as 'pure', some sort of cop out, etc. All you have to do is visit an ESPN chat after an SU game and these people come out of the woodwork. Not that I visit those places anymore, I've learned my lesson.

I don't really fault Nantz, but the use of phrases like "sitting back" works on people's minds subconsciously, registering as a description of the zone something like 'lazy'. And I think this is the kind of subtle thing that perpetuates people's misunderstanding of zones. That and Charles Barkley running his mouth whenever he's talking about one of our games.

 

[Dave85]

In light of some of the disappointment that's set in since the season has gotten off to a shaky start, I wanted to share something a little more fun.

Last week, my dad traveled to visit the grand kids for an extended weekend. At night after the kids were in bed, we took the opportunity to watch a pair of old SU NCAA tournament games -- the '87 elite eight game against North Carolina, and the '89 sweet sixteen game against Missouri. Both games were classics from when I was in high school--and I'd worn out the VCR tapes rewatching them back in the days, but hadn't watched either one in several years.

First of all, both teams were loaded, and were playing against opponents that were similarly loaded. All four teams were chock full of pros, and many of those who didn't make it to the NBA were recognizable college impact players. A couple of quick observations about the games:

• Man, was it easy to score back then! Both teams played effortless offense and really pushed the tempo. No surprise, because the greatest point guard in program history--the incomparable Sherman Douglas, #20--quarterbacked both squads

• Derrick Coleman was sick. What a player! Even as a frosh, he went toe-to-toe with JR Reid and held up well. In the Missouri game [his junior year], he was unstoppable against a HUGE front line, until he got into foul trouble

• The '87 squad featured a starting lineup where ALL FIVE STARTERS were double figure scorers. Talk about weapons!

• We were the #2 seed in that game, playing against UNC who was the #1 seed. UNC had one of those airport squads, with lots of players who were 6-10 and above. They also had first team all american Kenny Smith as their point guard. Very good team--obviously, since they were a #1 seed. But I doubt that they ran into too many other teams with BETTER frontcourts and a BETTER lead guard--which is exactly what happened that day

• Rony Seikaly was unstoppable. He was hitting turn around jump shots, baseline shots, etc. that he never hit at any other point in his career, including the NBA. It is almost like he sold his soul for that NCAA tournament performance... but damn, was he good that tourney

• I'd forgotten how solid of a player Howard Triche was. Despite playing the 3 at only 6-5, he was a broad shouldered, strong kid who rebounded well, defended well, and could both take it to the hole and hit mid-range jumpers

• Greg Monroe was "better" than I remembered, too

• Stevie Thompson was really unpolished for a guard-sized player, but damn--could he sky. In both games, he had some athletic scoring plays that were very impressive. Guy is in the top 10 in school scoring history, and he couldn't hit jumpers or free throws

• Obviously, it was nearly 30 years ago, but Jim Boeheim seemed really young. He was very nervous during the UNC game, and showed more emotion on the sideline--a marked contrast to the stoic elder statesman he is on the sidelines these days. The funny thing about this '87 UNC game was that he was coaching against Dean Smith, who was a hall of famer and a college basketball coaching icon. He might be one now, but Boeheim sure wasn't an icon back then--he was a maligned coach who hadn't won the "big one" up until that point, but this game got him past that hump and into the final four for the first time of his coaching career.

• Billy Owens, even as a frosh, was disgustingly talented. Great rebounder, too

• Like UNC, that Missouri team we played was HUGE--with two frontcourt guys who played in the NBA, and several bench guys who stood taller than 6-8. Also like UNC, they probably beat any other team, but not us. As in the UNC matchup, our frontcourt was better than their impressive frontcourt

• I can't say enough about Sherman Douglas. In BOTH games, there were times when the team was struggling and he would just take over. Very unorthodox player, but man--he was exciting to watch. And what a competitor...

• I know its been a staple in our offensive repertoire ever since he played, but no other player could throw the lob pass like he could. Period.

• We went on an 18-2 run in the second half against Missouri to blow open a close game. Their players / coaches were in shocked disbelief while it was happening

• The quality of play overall was so much better back then. Players today might be a little more cut, since they start lifting earlier, but the skill level was FAR superior in college ball back then.

In any event, it was a lot of fun to relive good memories, and to watch how fantastic of an offensive club we were back in the day. I'd also like to thank syracusefan.com's PoppyHart, from whom I procured DVD recordings awhile back to replace those old, worn out VHS tapes [thanks, Poppy!].

Let's Go Orange!!!

That was the golden...ORANGE era of Big East basketball!!!

 

[Dave85]

Another observation...To start the second half, Jim Nantz says something like "Syracuse, *sitting back* in that zone defense..." He does go on to add that it's an "aggressive" zone, but the initial phrase definitely seems to imply that the zone is not, by nature, a very aggressive defense. Like all the SU players are camped out on the court in lawn chairs, drinking lemonade, and hoping, praying that UNC doesn't make them get up out of their comfy seats. Yes, the zone defense: a defense for the man who likes to sit back.

This is petty, I know, but also kind of interesting, as I think the wording people use is very telling about what they really think. And I wouldn't bring this up except I think some people actually DO think zones are not as rigorous, not as 'pure', some sort of cop out, etc. All you have to do is visit an ESPN chat after an SU game and these people come out of the woodwork. Not that I visit those places anymore, I've learned my lesson.

I don't really fault Nantz, but the use of phrases like "sitting back" works on people's minds subconsciously, registering as a description of the zone something like 'lazy'. And I think this is the kind of subtle thing that perpetuates people's misunderstanding of zones. That and Charles Barkley running his mouth whenever he's talking about one of our games.

Sports announcers have been jerks about the 2-3 zone for years. A lot stupid trite comments. I love watching the Orange play the 2-3 zone. It's really amazing when it's working well. A lot times someone makes a terrific play on defense and the sports announcers don't even understand it otherwise they would make comment praising it!

One of my favorite all-time JB quotes is, "You never hear anyone say 'go zone' when someone scores on teams playing man-to-man."

 

[Dave85]

Just watched this game again. One thing that stuck out to me was the use of the bounce pass...for entry passes to the post, around the perimeter, really anywhere. You don't see this nearly as much in today's game.

Movement without the ball to open spaces to receive a bounce pass is a great answer. Today's game is all about bombing threes for glory. I wish we had someone this year playing like CJ Fair did last year with a good mid-range game.

 

[dyedorange]

Sports announcers have been jerks about the 2-3 zone for years. A lot stupid trite comments. I love watching the Orange play the 2-3 zone. It's really amazing when it's working well. A lot times someone makes a terrific play on defense and the sports announcers don't even understand it otherwise they would make comment praising it!

One of my favorite all-time JB quotes is, "You never hear anyone say 'go zone' when someone scores on teams playing man-to-man."

Yeah, great quote. The man's got a point.

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

In light of some of the disappointment that's set in since the season has gotten off to a shaky start, I wanted to share something a little more fun.

Last week, my dad traveled to visit the grand kids for an extended weekend. At night after the kids were in bed, we took the opportunity to watch a pair of old SU NCAA tournament games -- the '87 elite eight game against North Carolina, and the '89 sweet sixteen game against Missouri. Both games were classics from when I was in high school--and I'd worn out the VCR tapes rewatching them back in the days, but hadn't watched either one in several years.

First of all, both teams were loaded, and were playing against opponents that were similarly loaded. All four teams were chock full of pros, and many of those who didn't make it to the NBA were recognizable college impact players. A couple of quick observations about the games:

• Man, was it easy to score back then! Both teams played effortless offense and really pushed the tempo. No surprise, because the greatest point guard in program history--the incomparable Sherman Douglas, #20--quarterbacked both squads

• Derrick Coleman was sick. What a player! Even as a frosh, he went toe-to-toe with JR Reid and held up well. In the Missouri game [his junior year], he was unstoppable against a HUGE front line, until he got into foul trouble

• The '87 squad featured a starting lineup where ALL FIVE STARTERS were double figure scorers. Talk about weapons!

• We were the #2 seed in that game, playing against UNC who was the #1 seed. UNC had one of those airport squads, with lots of players who were 6-10 and above. They also had first team all american Kenny Smith as their point guard. Very good team--obviously, since they were a #1 seed. But I doubt that they ran into too many other teams with BETTER frontcourts and a BETTER lead guard--which is exactly what happened that day

• Rony Seikaly was unstoppable. He was hitting turn around jump shots, baseline shots, etc. that he never hit at any other point in his career, including the NBA. It is almost like he sold his soul for that NCAA tournament performance... but damn, was he good that tourney

• I'd forgotten how solid of a player Howard Triche was. Despite playing the 3 at only 6-5, he was a broad shouldered, strong kid who rebounded well, defended well, and could both take it to the hole and hit mid-range jumpers

• Greg Monroe was "better" than I remembered, too

• Stevie Thompson was really unpolished for a guard-sized player, but damn--could he sky. In both games, he had some athletic scoring plays that were very impressive. Guy is in the top 10 in school scoring history, and he couldn't hit jumpers or free throws

• Obviously, it was nearly 30 years ago, but Jim Boeheim seemed really young. He was very nervous during the UNC game, and showed more emotion on the sideline--a marked contrast to the stoic elder statesman he is on the sidelines these days. The funny thing about this '87 UNC game was that he was coaching against Dean Smith, who was a hall of famer and a college basketball coaching icon. He might be one now, but Boeheim sure wasn't an icon back then--he was a maligned coach who hadn't won the "big one" up until that point, but this game got him past that hump and into the final four for the first time of his coaching career.

• Billy Owens, even as a frosh, was disgustingly talented. Great rebounder, too

• Like UNC, that Missouri team we played was HUGE--with two frontcourt guys who played in the NBA, and several bench guys who stood taller than 6-8. Also like UNC, they probably beat any other team, but not us. As in the UNC matchup, our frontcourt was better than their impressive frontcourt

• I can't say enough about Sherman Douglas. In BOTH games, there were times when the team was struggling and he would just take over. Very unorthodox player, but man--he was exciting to watch. And what a competitor...

• I know its been a staple in our offensive repertoire ever since he played, but no other player could throw the lob pass like he could. Period.

• We went on an 18-2 run in the second half against Missouri to blow open a close game. Their players / coaches were in shocked disbelief while it was happening

• The quality of play overall was so much better back then. Players today might be a little more cut, since they start lifting earlier, but the skill level was FAR superior in college ball back then.

In any event, it was a lot of fun to relive good memories, and to watch how fantastic of an offensive club we were back in the day. I'd also like to thank syracusefan.com's PoppyHart, from whom I procured DVD recordings awhile back to replace those old, worn out VHS tapes [thanks, Poppy!].

Let's Go Orange!!!

JR Reid was the same class as DC

 

[SWC75]

Another observation...To start the second half, Jim Nantz says something like "Syracuse, *sitting back* in that zone defense..." He does go on to add that it's an "aggressive" zone, but the initial phrase definitely seems to imply that the zone is not, by nature, a very aggressive defense. Like all the SU players are camped out on the court in lawn chairs, drinking lemonade, and hoping, praying that UNC doesn't make them get up out of their comfy seats. Yes, the zone defense: a defense for the man who likes to sit back.

This is petty, I know, but also kind of interesting, as I think the wording people use is very telling about what they really think. And I wouldn't bring this up except I think some people actually DO think zones are not as rigorous, not as 'pure', some sort of cop out, etc. All you have to do is visit an ESPN chat after an SU game and these people come out of the woodwork. Not that I visit those places anymore, I've learned my lesson.

I don't really fault Nantz, but the use of phrases like "sitting back" works on people's minds subconsciously, registering as a description of the zone something like 'lazy'. And I think this is the kind of subtle thing that perpetuates people's misunderstanding of zones. That and Charles Barkley running his mouth whenever he's talking about one of our games.

Sometimes we do sit back in the zone, if we are tired or just playing poorly or the other team has shown that it's simply incapable of hitting form outside. Why stretch your perimeter in that situation? But we can come out of it when we need to.

 

[RF2044]

JR Reid was the same class as DC

Yup--him, Terry Mills, and DC were universally rated as the top three recruits in the country that year, in various particular orders depending on the publication doing the ratings.

There was a poignant moment in the 1986 McDonald's all star game that they played in, where Terry Mills got a steal, triggering a two-on-one fast break with JR Reid defending, and Coleman streaking down the court. Mills dished to DC, who pounded it over Reid. I think it was Marty Blake who said that was the moment he moved DC above Reid in the rankings.

Regardless, DC had much more upside. Reid was a finished product the moment he stepped foot on campus. Man among boys early, but not nearly as dominant when others physical maturity caught up to their athleticism--which is why he was a forgettable pro.

 

[dyedorange]

Sometimes we do sit back in the zone, if we are tired or just playing poorly or the other team has shown that it's simply incapable of hitting form outside. Why stretch your perimeter in that situation? But we can come out of it when we need to.

Six-eyed Sand Spider: Official spider of the Syracuse Orange