Clemson Postgame

[IthacaMatt]

Yeah but 1 was injured and they havent been able to play together for multiple years

and to that I say, welcome to college basketball, buddy

While all of that is true, it doesn't mean that we don't have talent.

 

[DilemaCuse]

While all of that is true, it doesn't mean that we don't have talent.

Sarcasm in these excuses

 

[CardiacCuse]

Im sorry but this post is just soo comical, I had to revisit it. Let me try to answer as best possible.

would JB really want some hotshot coming in after him and winning right away? What's wrong with that? unless your some world class bitter man holding a grudge? Wouldn't he want to see SU bball be healthy? Its not like he got a raw deal, he was pushing 80 years old with a decline in performance. Did Denny Crum hold a grudge when Pitino took over for him? The school and program had to move on at some point. Are we supposed to hire a sucky coach so the program doesn't win too much and Jim's feelings don't get hurt and his ego remains enormous, great strategy. Its Syracuse basketball program, not the Jim Boeheim owned basketball program.

what if his successor actually won a natty quickly? Orange nation would be ecstatic, and wouldn't care what Jim thought and would probably say we should have pushed him out sooner like after the 2nd sanctions in 15. He of course would have to be very complimentary. Was Jim Calhoun jealous of Kevin Ollie's National title, or Hurleys 2 titles?

JB wanting red to take over is crazy to me. JB knows basketball so well...he cant think red is a good option here...so then how could he want him? JB wanted to stay forever and actually preferred GMAC but it wasn't his call, JW was able to handpick AA as a compromise with BOT. We have a BOT that handcuffed JW and we self sanctioned the options available to us, just an abomination of a coach search. One that if I was AD I would resign over. If I'm putting my name on the hire, I better be confident and all bought in and do an exhaustive search. That search wasnt done. JW's statement about Adrian being the best for the job is total lip service that he probably didnt even believe it when he said it and makes him look pathetic and just an empty suit not a real Athletic Director with any power. Autry wasn't even pursued by teams in the NEC, Colonial Athletic, etc but yeah he's the best man for the 6th all time winningest program.

Countdown clock estimate
T minus 71 days till regular season ends

im not privvy to the particulars of what happened behind the scenes - my questions really hinge on the idea that JB wanted Red...which i find impossible to believe, based on how he coaches.

IF he truly wanted Red...then I really wonder how that is even possible beyond his strong desire to "keep everything in the family"

i didnt necessarily mean to imply that I believe in any of the implications my questions my hint at...im literally just at a loss for whats going on right now with this program and trying to grasp at anything i can think of

 

[IthacaMatt]

im not privvy to the particulars of what happened behind the scenes - my questions really hinge on the idea that JB wanted Red...which i find impossible to believe, based on how he coaches.

IF he truly wanted Red...then I really wonder how that is even possible beyond his strong desire to "keep everything in the family"

i didnt necessarily mean to imply that I believe in any of the implications my questions my hint at...im literally just at a loss for whats going on right now with this program and trying to grasp at anything i can think of

JB wanted Gerry. I think we all know that. But the Board didn't think that would look good to promote a less experienced white man over a more experienced person of color, who had also been Associate Head Coach, and was also a great player for us in his time.

 

[23Zone]

Why do you ask questions you already know the answer too?

 

[23Zone]

JB wanted Gerry. I think we all know that. But the Board didn't think that would look good to promote a less experienced white man over a more experienced person of color, who had also been Associate Head Coach, and was also a great player for us in his time.

Yeah and look where that got us

 

[DomeHolmes]

Totally agree. I’ve actually been surprised there hasn’t been more criticism of the last shot. A lot of posts have even been accepting.

No timeouts, but how do you not practice a play or two for those situations? Instead Donnie screens for Nait 30 feet from the basket and gets off a 25 footer with 8.5 on the clock. A panicked, rushed shot with a hand in his face and plenty of time on the clock. That’s on the coach.

It wasn’t the greatest shot, but if we don’t take the open shot when we have it, you run the risk of either never getting a better look, or Clemson deciding to foul us since they were up three, which I’m surprised they didn’t do anyway. If they were going to let us shoot, you kinda have to take the first best look you have, before they foul.

 

[Scooch]

JB wanted Gerry. I think we all know that. But the Board didn't think that would look good to promote a less experienced white man over a more experienced person of color, who had also been Associate Head Coach, and was also a great player for us in his time.

I don’t think we all know that. Some people have floated it. And some have debunked it. It’d be really weird to make a guy your HCiW and then advocate for another guy when you step down.

 

[IthacaMatt]

Yeah and look where that got us

Well, at least it's not on fire! LOL

 

[IthacaMatt]

I don’t think we all know that. Some people have floated it. And some have debunked it. It’d be really weird to make a guy your HCiW and then advocate for another guy when you step down.

JB gave a couple TV interviews that made his choice clear. One was along the lines of "If I had to choose 1 guy I would want to be in a foxhole with me, it would Gerry."
You don't give that interview before a coach has been chosen, unless you're trying to influence the outcome of the decision. He also hasn't been around hardly at all since Autry became coach.

If it had been Gerry, would he be talking him up and cheerleading for him? I think he might. After all, Gerry had big balls in the biggest moment. He delivered that Championship game win as much as Hak or Melo, with his 6 threes in the first half staking us to a 17 point lead, IIRC.

 

[Scooch]

JB gave a couple TV interviews that made his choice clear. One was along the lines of "If I had to choose 1 guy I would want to be in a foxhole with me, it would Gerry."

Well then Jim should have fired Red and made Gerry the HCiW. But he didn’t. So who cares who he maybe possibly preferred? He didn’t act on it.

 

[IthacaMatt]

Well then Jim should have fired Red and made Gerry the HCiW. But he didn’t. So who cares who he maybe possibly preferred? He didn’t act on it.

He didn't get to make the call. That was the point.
Just like he didn't get to make the call to keep his job, after those petulant interviews right before he got fired.

 

[Scooch]

He didn't get to make the call. That was the point.
Just like he didn't get to make the call to keep his job, after those petulant interviews right before he got fired.

I just don’t want to get into the political angle of why a coach was, or was not, selected.

I’m saying that if JB felt so strongly about GMac he could have gotten rid of Red several years prior to 2023 and made him the HCiW. But JB did very little work his last few years as HC, so I doubt he’d have made that effort.

 

[cuseattle]

JB gave a couple TV interviews that made his choice clear. One was along the lines of "If I had to choose 1 guy I would want to be in a foxhole with me, it would Gerry."
You don't give that interview before a coach has been chosen, unless you're trying to influence the outcome of the decision. He also hasn't been around hardly at all since Autry became coach.

If it had been Gerry, would he be talking him up and cheerleading for him? I think he might. After all, Gerry had big balls in the biggest moment. He delivered that Championship game win as much as Hak or Melo, with his 6 threes in the first half staking us to a 17 point lead, IIRC.

Holy cow that's almost 23 years ago!
I'm not going to check, but I thought we were up 20 at one point.

 

[Jake]

I guarantee that some of the same folks who said back in September that we upgraded our talent to tourney-level will start disparaging that talent in January. It’s already started in fact. Then they’ll claim our NIL and facilities are insufficient so it’s really not Red’s fault. Will be lots of talk about institutional shortcomings to shift the blame.

I don’t read every thread, but I haven’t seen anything of the such. To the contrary, I think nearly everyone believes we built a better roster in the off season, and nearly everyone believed going into the season, if he can’t get this team to the dance, the plug should be pulled.

The Freeman injury isn’t an excuse. He’s clearly the most talented player on the team. He was the most talented player on the court yesterday.

Holding off on final opinions until he returns is a reasonable perspective.

Though I never posted it, I thought holding Donnie out until Clemson was a mistake. I really wanted him to get an appearance in the past game to get the butterflies out of his system.

The staff was clearly given the resources needed to get a tournament level talent base. There has been some indications that this may have been a one-time infusion by a gigantic donor. There are no institutional shortcomings other than the fact that we don’t have the deep pool of huge donors that larger state schools have, nor are we a big east school that doesn’t have to allocate resources to FB.

In the new world order, we are inherently at a disadvantage. To deny that truth, shows a lack of understanding of today’s landscape.

Ironically, the thing we really miss is the only thing that JB was still good at in his final years -actual game management…and even that got weakened in the fog of nepotism.

But JB would ensure that the best scorers take shots. He was still running effective inbounds plays. Things that we just assumed would carry over.

They haven’t, and I’ll sound like a broken record, but Red’s inability to use the bench as a teaching tool has undermined his own authority.

The players all know who the best players are. They know who the good teammates are. They know how it should roll on the court. Coaches keep players in line, and the best players appreciate that. Red doesn’t appear to do that. Rotations seem preset, not an adjustment to game circumstances. Over time, that erodes the team.

People complained about JBs short leash, but the games matter. It’s not practice. It’s time to execute.

I watched the timeouts yesterday. Red huddles with his assistants and gathers information for about half of the timeout. It looks good. He spends the rest teaching. But it doesn’t result in effective play.

JB wouldn’t let assistants talk. Some timeouts he hardly spoke, but the results were acceptable.

Donnie cares. Love his fire, he wants to win badly. I don’t see that desire across the rest of the team- but that might be the new reality, as long as the check clears-I’m good.

At the end of the day, nobody can say Red didn’t get his chance. He did, and it appears it’s not working out.

I think there are some people that didn’t like the hire from day 1 and love pointing out his faults. I think that, barring a scandal, this was going to be a three year opportunity. I don’t think we’re going to see year 4.

 

[dasher]

I don’t read every thread, but I haven’t seen anything of the such. To the contrary, I think nearly everyone believes we built a better roster in the off season, and nearly everyone believed going into the season, if he can’t get this team to the dance, the plug should be pulled.

The Freeman injury isn’t an excuse. He’s clearly the most talented player on the team. He was the most talented player on the court yesterday.

Holding off on final opinions until he returns is a reasonable perspective.

Though I never posted it, I thought holding Donnie out until Clemson was a mistake. I really wanted him to get an appearance in the past game to get the butterflies out of his system.

The staff was clearly given the resources needed to get a tournament level talent base. There has been some indications that this maybe have been a one-time infusion by a gigantic donor. There are no institutional shortcomings other than the fact that we don’t have the deep pool if huge donors that larger state schools, nor are we a big east school that doesn’t have to allocate resources to FB.

In the new world order, we are inherently at a disadvantage. To deny that truth, shows a lack of understanding of today’s landscape.

Ironically, the things we really miss was the only thing that JB was still good at in his final years -actual game management…and even that got weakened in the fog of nepotism.

But JB would ensure that the best scorers take shots. He was still running effective inbounds plays. Things that we just assumed would carry over.

They haven’t, and I’ll sound like a broken record, but Red’s inability to use the bench as a teaching tool has undermined his own authority.

The players all know who the best players are. They know who the good teammates are. They know how it should role in the court. Coaches keep players in line, and the best players appreciate that. Red doesn’t appear to do that. Rotations seem preset, not an adjustment to game circumstances. Over time, that erodes the team.

People complained about JBs short leash, but the games matter. It’s not practice. It’s time to execute.

I watched the timeouts yesterday. Red huddles with his assistants and gathers information for about half of the timeout. It looks good. He spends the rest teaching. But it doesn’t result in effective play.

JB wouldn’t let assistants talk. Some timeouts he hardly spoke, but the results were acceptable.

Donnie cares. Love his fire, he wants to win badly. I don’t see that desire across the rest of the team- but that might the new reality, as long as the check clears-I’m good.

At the end of the day, nobody can say Red didn’t get his chance. He did, and it appears it’s not working g out.

I think there are some people that didn’t like the hire from day 1 and love pointing out his faults. I think that, barring a scandal, this was going to be a three year opportunity. I don’t think we’re going to see year 4.

So much of this post was just spot on.

 

[DilemaCuse]

im not privvy to the particulars of what happened behind the scenes - my questions really hinge on the idea that JB wanted Red...which i find impossible to believe, based on how he coaches.

IF he truly wanted Red...then I really wonder how that is even possible beyond his strong desire to "keep everything in the family"

i didnt necessarily mean to imply that I believe in any of the implications my questions my hint at...im literally just at a loss for whats going on right now with this program and trying to grasp at anything i can think of

I don't think he really wanted him. He preferred Gmac is the rumor. Also if he felt either we're ready or qualified maybe he steps aside a little more gracefully but he was fighting to remain in place, maybe because he knew neither was qualified like Hop and we saw how that turned out. And when your being forced out like he was, your really not getting to call your shot on the replacement, so it doesn't matter who you "want".
I think JW went with the more tenured assistant and it was the compromise between JW and BOT. JB wasn't getting to name his replacement. What happened is we have an awful buraucracy with BOT members who don't understand the landscape of college basketball getting in the way of an Athletic Director.

 

[Scooch]

I don’t read every thread, but I haven’t seen anything of the such. To the contrary, I think nearly everyone believes we built a better roster in the off season, and nearly everyone believed going into the season, if he can’t get this team to the dance, the plug should be pulled.

The Freeman injury isn’t an excuse. He’s clearly the most talented player on the team. He was the most talented player on the court yesterday.

Holding off on final opinions until he returns is a reasonable perspective.

Though I never posted it, I thought holding Donnie out until Clemson was a mistake. I really wanted him to get an appearance in the past game to get the butterflies out of his system.

The staff was clearly given the resources needed to get a tournament level talent base. There has been some indications that this maybe have been a one-time infusion by a gigantic donor. There are no institutional shortcomings other than the fact that we don’t have the deep pool if huge donors that larger state schools, nor are we a big east school that doesn’t have to allocate resources to FB.

In the new world order, we are inherently at a disadvantage. To deny that truth, shows a lack of understanding of today’s landscape.

Ironically, the things we really miss was the only thing that JB was still good at in his final years -actual game management…and even that got weakened in the fog of nepotism.

But JB would ensure that the best scorers take shots. He was still running effective inbounds plays. Things that we just assumed would carry over.

They haven’t, and I’ll sound like a broken record, but Red’s inability to use the bench as a teaching tool has undermined his own authority.

The players all know who the best players are. They know who the good teammates are. They know how it should role in the court. Coaches keep players in line, and the best players appreciate that. Red doesn’t appear to do that. Rotations seem preset, not an adjustment to game circumstances. Over time, that erodes the team.

People complained about JBs short leash, but the games matter. It’s not practice. It’s time to execute.

I watched the timeouts yesterday. Red huddles with his assistants and gathers information for about half of the timeout. It looks good. He spends the rest teaching. But it doesn’t result in effective play.

JB wouldn’t let assistants talk. Some timeouts he hardly spoke, but the results were acceptable.

Donnie cares. Love his fire, he wants to win badly. I don’t see that desire across the rest of the team- but that might the new reality, as long as the check clears-I’m good.

At the end of the day, nobody can say Red didn’t get his chance. He did, and it appears it’s not working g out.

I think there are some people that didn’t like the hire from day 1 and love pointing out his faults. I think that, barring a scandal, this was going to be a three year opportunity. I don’t think we’re going to see year 4.

Most of that is very fair. I’ll admit to bristling at the Starling criticism that suggested it was he alone that lost the Clemson game, and not the guy that let him play 34 minutes.

In the past it’d be around this time of the season when I’d see the “this team really lacks talent” messages from folks who praised the talent in October. Maybe my guarantee is unfair but it’s not without precedent.

In terms of institutional disadvantages, I’ve been well aware of that and posted as such for years. However, we acquired the roster that everyone acknowledged was tourney quality. So whatever those disadvantages may be, they’re not relevant to the tourney chances of the 2025-26 Orange.

In past seasons we’ve been told that the program had plenty of NIL… only to be told months later, when things went south, that they didn’t. I’ve said for a while that folks can’t be expected to have the proper expectations for the roster if there’s a secret, cloak and dagger routine about our budget. That leads to the “the board is stupid” stuff that I find tedious. I think I was booted from a thread by expressing that. I stand by it.

Lastly, as I have posted repeatedly, I was fine with the Autry hire. And I thought he did a decent enough job in year one. It was the debacle in fundraising and roster construction heading into year 2 that soured me on him. I avoided any Xs and Os critiques because I’m not the guy to harp on that aspect of the job.

All along I wished he’d be successful. And I’ve tried to be optimistic this season. Yesterday was my breaking point. Freeman played well, we made our FTs, and we lost anyway. He’s just not a good coach.

 

[IthacaMatt]

I just don’t want to get into the political angle of why a coach was, or was not, selected.

I’m saying that if JB felt so strongly about GMac he could have gotten rid of Red several years prior to 2023 and made him the HCiW. But JB did very little work his last few years as HC, so I doubt he’d have made that effort.

OK, that's a fair point.

 

[Briancuse]

im not privvy to the particulars of what happened behind the scenes - my questions really hinge on the idea that JB wanted Red...which i find impossible to believe, based on how he coaches.

IF he truly wanted Red...then I really wonder how that is even possible beyond his strong desire to "keep everything in the family"

i didnt necessarily mean to imply that I believe in any of the implications my questions my hint at...im literally just at a loss for whats going on right now with this program and trying to grasp at anything i can think of

Its actually not, he knew red would never be a good coach. All these guys have egos. Do you think jb wanted the guy taking over for him having immediate success?

 

[DilemaCuse]

I just don’t want to get into the political angle of why a coach was, or was not, selected.

I’m saying that if JB felt so strongly about GMac he could have gotten rid of Red several years prior to 2023 and made him the HCiW. But JB did very little work his last few years as HC, so I doubt he’d have made that effort.

After Hop left, most of us knew the next Head coach was not on the coaching staff, or at least not qualified nor marketable enough due to program decline and lack of interest from stepping stone jobs, yet here we are. The BOT members who got us into this mess take the easy route but it actually becomes the hard way.

 

[Jake]

Most of that is very fair. I’ll admit to bristling at the Starling criticism that suggested it was he alone that lost the Clemson game, and not the guy that let him play 34 minutes.

In the past it’d be around this time of the season when I’d see the “this team really lacks talent” messages from folks who praised the talent in October. Maybe my guarantee is unfair but it’s not without precedent.

In terms of institutional disadvantages, I’ve been well aware of that and posted as such for years. However, we acquired the roster that everyone acknowledged was tourney quality. So whatever those disadvantages may be, they’re not relevant to the tourney chances of the 2025-26 Orange.

In past seasons we’ve been told that the program had plenty of NIL… only to be told months later, when things went south, that they didn’t. I’ve said for a while that folks can’t be expected to have the proper expectations for the roster if there’s a secret, cloak and dagger routine about our budget. That leads to the “the board is stupid” stuff that I find tedious. I think I was booted from a thread from expressing that.

Lastly, as I have posted repeatedly, I was fine with the Autry hire. And I thought he did a decent enough job in year one. It was the debacle in fundraising and roster construction heading into year 2 that soured me on him. I avoided any Xs and Os critiques because I’m not the guy to harp on that aspect of the job.

All along I wished he’d be successful. And I’ve tried to be optimistic this season. Yesterday was my breaking point. Freeman played well, we made our FTs, and we lost anyway. He’s just not a good coach.

Yesterday was my breaking point as well. Though it’s been a steady erosion. And after year one, I was encouraged as well.

 

[DilemaCuse]

Its actually not, he knew red would never be a good coach. All these guys have egos. Do you think jb wanted the guy taking over for him having immediate success?

Yet he kept Red on staff. In 2019 I said JB needs to make staff changes. New philosophies and help in recruiting. No changes made and decline continued.
The last question, I don't get? Wouldn't you be happy for one of your assistants to be having success? Pretty sure I saw Roy Williams celebrate Hubert Davis Final 4 in year 2 of his tenure. Sometimes a man has got to know his limitations and understand it's a young man's game now, and move on. The whole being bitter part I don't get.

 

[Scooch]

Though I never posted it, I thought holding Donnie out until Clemson was a mistake. I really wanted him to get an appearance in the past game to get the butterflies out of his system.

I wanted to add that I agree with you about Freeman’s return. Since the extent of his injury and rehab timeframe was kept secret it wasn’t right to publicly suggest he come back sooner.

But it was flat out weird to keep trotting him out for pregame warmups then not play him. That’s simply not a normal way to manage an injury return.

He should have been back for Stonehill if he could have played. And I thought he should have started vs Clemson too. We went into a 12-3 early hole while White played poorly.

Just another brick in the wall of how this program seems to be run badly these days.

 

[Briancuse]

Yet he kept Red on staff. In 2019 I said JB needs to make staff changes. New philosophies and help in recruiting. No changes made and decline continued.
The last question, I don't get? Wouldn't you be happy for one of your assistants to be having success? Pretty sure I saw Roy Williams celebrate Hubert Davis Final 4 in year 2 of his tenure. Sometimes a man has got to know his limitations and understand it's a young man's game now, and move on. The whole being bitter part I don't get.

He kept him on staff because hes a really good recruiter. Yes and no, you know these guys have egos. After the medicore way jb ended his tenure, you think he wanted red having a lot of success?