Coleman...

[br801]

Then yes we disagree about DC2 ever being a post threat, I believe he can be. Also the point about a post threat was that it is a great advantage for a team to have. I would like to see SU have this advantage soon. Having a center that has an offensive game is a huge advantage that is rare in college hoops.

You may rank DC2 as 3rd but what about offensively? And what about rebounding?

Do you believe that game time helps develop players? Because what about next year, where do you have him ranked? Seems like he would have to be at least 2nd on practically anyones list.

Having a post threat opens things up for the perimeter shooters, which is particularly important for a team that sometimes struggles from the outside.

And the last I knew, offensive rebounding qualifies as an offensive skill.

 

[br801]

I really like that JB is doing this now. It is one of the changes that I have enjoyed. I may get a little defensive about it. I don't know if a lot of these people didn't see the early days when JB seemed to substitute for foul protection only.

I hope JB continues in the other direction, that he not only starts DC2 but instructs the team to feed him the ball early, like last year. If DC2 fails to apply the teachings he could get the hook and have a teaching moment.

I'm not sure why the merits of this approach are so hard for some people to understand. And it's simply not true that SU always falls behind early in games, as so many on this board seem to believe.

 

[Henny & Coke]

nah, its been 33 games for DC. Kid is a good player, but with our current roster he is the 10th best player. He will be lucky, and so will we, if he logs 5 mins come ACC time.

Ok, everyone say this together: "Big men often take time to develop."

33 games in your ready to pull the plug on a former McDonalds AA center because he's not playing well? Yikes. (And I only count DC as having played in 27 college games so far.) Glad JB & staff have more patience & long-term vision.

"Big men often take time to develop." Let's look at some recent examples, shall we:

I remember similar critism of Fab Melo getting every start his Frosh year, even though he would seemingly pick up 5 fouls in 3 mins of play.

Fab's first year stats (2010-11): 33 games played, 9.9 mins/per, 2.3 ppg, 1.9 rpg, 0.8 bpg, 607% FG, 360% FT

Thankfully JB & staff realized Fab had a ton of talent & just needed more experience.

Fab's second year stats (2011-12): 30 games, 25.4 mins/per, 7.8 ppg, 5.8 rpg, 2.9 bpg, 566% FG, 633% FT

How about Rick Jackson after 35 games played you ask? Nothing to write home about:

Rick Jackson first year stats (2007-08): 35 games played, 12.9 min/per, 3.7 ppg, 3.0 rpg, 526% FG, 528% FT

But those early games paid off, especially in that fantastic Senior year:

Rick Jackson's Soph - Senior seasons:

2008-09: 38 games, 22.1 mins/per, 8.3 ppg, 5.8 rpg, 623% FG, 481% FT
2009-10: 35 games, 26.3 mins/per, 9.7 ppg, 7.0 rpg, 591% FG, 500% FT
2010-11: 35 games, 35.6 mins/per, 13.1 ppg, 10.3 rpg, 588% FG, 533% FT

For comparison, DC's stats his first year (2012-13): 24 games played, 12.7 mins/per, 4.8 ppg, 4.0 rpg, 438% FG, 462% FT
So far second year (2013-14): 3 games, 15.0 mins/per, 4.0 ppg, 7.0 rpg, 444% FG, 308% FT

"Big men often take time to develop." - We have to be patient with talented big men, because the payoff can be huge.

Fab's impact in 2011-12 was absurd - Big East Def POY & even more than stats, his presence in the middle of the zone on Def & offense changed the way teams played us. And Rick Jackson was a grown-ass man in 2010-11 - one of the best improvements I've seen in a player over course of their SU career.

 

[orangefan13]

Raks best offense is at the four

This is going to set some people off like a timebomb but, I would even go as far as to say there is a possibility Rak could suprise and as good as grant at scoring this year if he were to play 30 minutes at pf. Especially if his foul shooting remains 20% higher. Maybe not in terms of ppg but his efficiency could be huge.

 

[Sgt Cuse]

Henry - I think you should have put AO in there too for people who forgot. Because it is that AO type offensive presence at the center that is so incredibly enticing. If DC2 could give us that, SU would be a force to be reckoned with. A center with scoring ability is so rare and valuable. Well worth investing in IMO.

 

[Madbiker]

I have no problem giving DC2 minutes in the pre-conference games. But if his defense doesn't show real improvement soon he won't get minutes in meaningful games against good teams. Our defense is noticeably better when Rak or BMK is at center.

 

[Dave85]

Coleman needs a catch, pivot, plow to the basket type move that is practically automatic. He still brings the ball down too low on rebounds. He's still trying to do a one dribble to drive to the basket. That may have worked in HS. But that is not going to work at the college level. Players are just way to fast to strip the ball.

Also, Coleman's foul shooting is just awful. I just don't understand how any player on an Orange basketball team is not putting hours and hours into practicing free throws. The "charity stripe" is supposed to be a good thing!

 

[Lawrinson14]

Ok, everyone say this together: "Big men often take time to develop."

33 games in your ready to pull the plug on a former McDonalds AA center because he's not playing well? Yikes. (And I only count DC as having played in 27 college games so far.) Glad JB & staff have more patience & long-term vision.

"Big men often take time to develop." Let's look at some recent examples, shall we:

I remember similar critism of Fab Melo getting every start his Frosh year, even though he would seemingly pick up 5 fouls in 3 mins of play.

Fab's first year stats (2010-11): 33 games played, 9.9 mins/per, 2.3 ppg, 1.9 rpg, 0.8 bpg, 607% FG, 360% FT

Thankfully JB & staff realized Fab had a ton of talent & just needed more experience.

Fab's second year stats (2011-12): 30 games, 25.4 mins/per, 7.8 ppg, 5.8 rpg, 2.9 bpg, 566% FG, 633% FT

How about Rick Jackson after 35 games played you ask? Nothing to write home about:

Rick Jackson first year stats (2007-08): 35 games played, 12.9 min/per, 3.7 ppg, 3.0 rpg, 526% FG, 528% FT

But those early games paid off, especially in that fantastic Senior year:

Rick Jackson's Soph - Senior seasons:

2008-09: 38 games, 22.1 mins/per, 8.3 ppg, 5.8 rpg, 623% FG, 481% FT
2009-10: 35 games, 26.3 mins/per, 9.7 ppg, 7.0 rpg, 591% FG, 500% FT
2010-11: 35 games, 35.6 mins/per, 13.1 ppg, 10.3 rpg, 588% FG, 533% FT

For comparison, DC's stats his first year (2012-13): 24 games played, 12.7 mins/per, 4.8 ppg, 4.0 rpg, 438% FG, 462% FT
So far second year (2013-14): 3 games, 15.0 mins/per, 4.0 ppg, 7.0 rpg, 444% FG, 308% FT

"Big men often take time to develop." - We have to be patient with talented big men, because the payoff can be huge.

Fab's impact in 2011-12 was absurd - Big East Def POY & even more than stats, his presence in the middle of the zone on Def & offense changed the way teams played us. And Rick Jackson was a grown-ass man in 2010-11 - one of the best improvements I've seen in a player over course of their SU career.

I agree that big men take time to develop. But all the stats you cite are offensive stats. DC's biggest issue is not his lack of post moves...those will come with time. It's his complete and utter lack of defensive ability. He is a huge liability when he is in there.

At least with freshman Fab you could say he was a legit 7 footer who could alter shots simply by putting his hands up. And Rick had the agility, even as a bigger guy his freshman to junior years, to switch between the 4 and the 5. Coleman is too slow to play the 4 and a bit to undersized to play the 5.

Fab and Rick were both defensive players of the year. I DO NOT see Coleman ever growing into that.

 

[KevMonstah]

You cannot judge Coleman or any post guy as not worth playing until you actually make the attempt to run some
low post offense. Against Colgate, in 49 mins combined, Keita, Christmas, and Coleman went a grand total of
4-5 from the field. I think you could live with the 18 rebounds they grabbed, but they will never be scorers if
they do not get the ball.

Kev

 

[albanycuse]

DC 's offensive moves/power game don't work at this level. He has to be smarter now and add a little bit of finesse to his game. One good thing is he hustles his butt off, the efforts there.

 

[Henny & Coke]

I agree that big men take time to develop. But all the stats you cite are offensive stats. DC's biggest issue is not his lack of post moves...those will come with time. It's his complete and utter lack of defensive ability. He is a huge liability when he is in there.

At least with freshman Fab you could say he was a legit 7 footer who could alter shots simply by putting his hands up. And Rick had the agility, even as a bigger guy his freshman to junior years, to switch between the 4 and the 5. Coleman is too slow to play the 4 and a bit to undersized to play the 5.

Fab and Rick were both defensive players of the year. I DO NOT see Coleman ever growing into that.

Rebounding is a key part of defense - and this is a place where DC2 is already providing value. 21 rebounds (10 defensive) in 45 mins of game play so far this year is pretty unreal (and unsustainable I'd imagine).

And even if he's not getting to every rebound, don't underestimate the toll it takes on an opposing team's frontcourt to have to continually bang inside against a 6-9 280 lb guy like Coleman. Believe me, there is an impact there. It's no fun to box out guys like that each posession & you expend a ton of energy. (So, when we can substitute a guy like Keita / RAK & not lose anything talent wise, it's a big time luxury.)

Then add in ability to draw fouls (even disregard foul shots at moment) that Coleman seems to have, and now your getting the opposing team's frontcourt into foul trouble.

Some benefits / impact to game are not listed in boxscores.

 

[TBCuse11]

I agree that big men take time to develop. But all the stats you cite are offensive stats. DC's biggest issue is not his lack of post moves...those will come with time. It's his complete and utter lack of defensive ability. He is a huge liability when he is in there.

At least with freshman Fab you could say he was a legit 7 footer who could alter shots simply by putting his hands up. And Rick had the agility, even as a bigger guy his freshman to junior years, to switch between the 4 and the 5. Coleman is too slow to play the 4 and a bit to undersized to play the 5.

Fab and Rick were both defensive players of the year. I DO NOT see Coleman ever growing into that.

To try and compare DC to Fab in any way is obsurd. People are grasping at straws to support DC2. The plain fact is that we have two better centers on this team.

We also two of the best forwards in America who can get the ball on the post and kick it out. We dont need to watch DC2 bumble away for the first 4 minutes before getting our actual ball players in there..

 

[TBCuse11]

Rebounding is a key part of defense - and this is a place where DC2 is already providing value. 21 rebounds (10 defensive) in 45 mins of game play so far this year is pretty unreal (and unsustainable I'd imagine).

And even if he's not getting to every rebound, don't underestimate the toll it takes on an opposing team's frontcourt to have to continually bang inside against a 6-9 280 lb guy like Coleman. Believe me, there is an impact there. It's no fun to box out guys like that each posession & you expend a ton of energy. (So, when we can substitute a guy like Keita / RAK & not lose anything talent wise, it's a big time luxury.)

Then add in ability to draw fouls (even disregard foul shots at moment) that Coleman seems to have, and now your getting the opposing team's frontcourt into foul trouble.

Some benefits / impact to game are not listed in boxscores.

Eh. I guess the fanbase will be split on DC2 for now. Maybe he will improve and make all these talks moot. Drawing fouls vs. 6 foot 4 guys on Ivy League schools is not the same as against elite talent. Sadly, we lost alot when Bernie left. He clearly had talent in working with big men.

 

[jordoo]

That is tough to answer because i dont think he should play at all. He will probably get 8 and 5 tonight.
But the point is, for over a season now whenever he starts we fall in to a hole. If they are hell bent on bringing Grant off the bench, start Keita. No, he wont score 8 points, but he will rebound better and our D as a whole will be much better.

its really not even a debate honestly.

Coleman is the best rebounder on the team IMO. He is behind the other two on defense but he has been showing improvements in that area. I m convince we will get a season and a half out of Coleman, at the end of his time here,where he is a legit post presence that changes the way teams have to play us defensively. There have been improvements IMO but yes they are slow moving improvements and I'd be the first to admit that it frustrating ad hard to watch at times. The thing is the same can be said for Rok who you are championing for more time and he has been hear a year longer. Rok is a much better defender in the middle than DC2 but when we struggle on offense with the two in together at the beginning of games its both of them remember that.

 

[jordoo]

Agree to disagree then. Coleman will never be a post threat. And we surely didnt lose to Michigan because of a lack of post threat. And for that matter, we certainly didnt WIN our national title because we had one.
.

How do you know he won't?

We lost to Mich because we didn't score the ball well that game IMO . . . . . . . hmmm I wonder how much easier it would have been to score if we had a guy in the post who they had to concentrate on to stop.

On the national championship game we had Hak and Melo who could post up. We usually started the games out with Hak on the block and when he was successful we had very good offensive games like Texas for example.

Its funny you called someone arrogant but you stat your opinions like they are fact and not in ay sort of joking manor that I can detect.

 

[Waltdods]

Sadly, we lost alot when Bernie left. He clearly had talent in working with big men.

I find this pretty funny. For a decade or so, Fine was slammed on this board and elsewhere for being unable to develop big men. After Etan Thomas graduated, the team went many years without a particularly great center despite having a handful of guys who came in with promise (Forth and Watkins especially). And then Onauku, Jackson, and a brief moment of good Fab Melo and people have completely changed their view of the guy.

My guess - being a good center is a very rare skill, and Onuaku's development and Watkins' relative lack of development under the same coach was not a sign that the guy had suddenly become a genius after 30 years. Sometimes we look for explanations when all there really is is chance.

 

[jordoo]

I think he is ridiculously overrated as a rebounder and i think his offensive game is non-existent If pounding the ball in to the ground and putting up a contested layup that gets blocked most the time is offense, then i guess he has some. I believe Rak is better at every part of the game than Coleman (and i am NOT a Rak fan).

The team flows and plays better than Coleman is not on the court. its just a fact. As for next year, yes he would be our #2 center based on talent. Rak-Grant-McCollough seems like the pretty clear staring front line. If Grant leaves, then Roberson.

I dont see anything from DC2. I hope I am wrong.

I don't know the stat but if you did per minute rebounds on our bigs I bet it would show that DC2 does the best out of the three.
Although Coleman as some serious flaws in his offensive attack,IMO, its clear he has the widest array attack of the thee bigs from a back to the basket and turn and face. He is much less of a leaper ad not an above the rim guy. IMO Coleman has shown he is a better rebounder than Rak even though he is pretty earthbound. He has als from time to time showed some ball skills that I have never seen from Rak.

 

[jordoo]

Eh. I guess the fanbase will be split on DC2 for now. Maybe he will improve and make all these talks moot. Drawing fouls vs. 6 foot 4 guys on Ivy League schools is not the same as against elite talent. Sadly, we lost alot when Bernie left. He clearly had talent in working with big men.

You didn't mention his rebounding. Can you explain how you come to the conclusion that Rak and Baye are better rebounders?

 

[orangefan13]

Syracuse hasn't tried to develop a center with a 8 foot shot in forever. We never run it in our offense. Our last center to attempt three shots outside of 5 feet in a game was fab, and he did it maybe twice. Before him you would have to probably go back to seikley. Some others teams like Notre Dame/duke do that more often and it has worked for them at times.

Heck we rarely get a true strong pf that can shoot like that either, we always get the skinnier ones(which I am 100% ok with).

Then we take a true pf like Rak move them to center and tell them not to shoot outside of 3 feet forgetting he is really a pf who got stuck playing center because lack of mobility for 2 seasons and now has grant and robinson taking some of his minutes.

I think rak has made huge strides this year and dajuan will make huge ones next year. Jr season for a big is a big turning point these days.

 

[Henny & Coke]

Using the advanced stats portion of this website, they have a metric called "Total Rebound Percentage" which they define as "an estimate of the percentage of available rebounds a player grabbed while he was on the floor."

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/syracuse/2014.html

Top 3 SU players in this category this year so far:
DC2 - 24.7%
Keita - 19.8%
Grant - 16.6%

Top 3 SU players in this category last year (not counting walk-ons):
DC2 - 17.1%
RAK - 12.1%
Keita - 12.0%

 

[jordoo]

Syracuse hasn't tried to develop a center with a 8 foot shot in forever. We never run it in our offense. Our last center to attempt three shots outside of 5 feet in a game was fab, and he did it maybe twice. Before him you would have to probably go back to seikley. Some others teams like Notre Dame/duke do that more often and it has worked for them at times.

Heck we rarely get a true strong pf that can shoot like that either, we always get the skinnier ones(which I am 100% ok with).

Then we take a true pf like Rak move them to center and tell them not to shoot outside of 3 feet forgetting he is really a pf who got stuck playing center because lack of mobility for 2 seasons and now has grant and robinson taking some of his minutes.

Ottis Hill had a nice face up jumper out to around 12 feet by the end of his time. If we have guyswho can do it consistently we would get them those shots. Rick started out taking those as a Senior but just couldn't make enough. Fab was allowed to shoot them and in fact had 2-3 in one game early on that really helped us. Can't recall the game though. It seems both DC2 and Rak have this ability but rarely look for it. Rak has hit out to 15 looking very smooth and then he won't take that shot for another 5 games when the shot clock is expiring.

I think Rak is really more of a 5 that we want to be a 4. He always seems more comfortable at the5 ad played there in highschool I believe.

 

[tee1222]

Btw, when talking to a friend of DC2 the other day, one of the first things the guy mentions is "I keep telling him to stop keeping the ball so low". Even though the guy showed me DC2's number in his phone what he said made me think to myself, this is definitely one of Coleman's friends. Well, either way, at least we now know that he is aware of the fact.


And no, I'm not cto, but I have my moments.

 

[jordoo]

Using the advanced stats portion of this website, they have a metric called "Total Rebound Percentage" which they define as "an estimate of the percentage of available rebounds a player grabbed while he was on the floor."

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/syracuse/2014.html

Top 3 SU players in this category this year so far:
DC2 - 24.7%
Keita - 19.8%
Grant - 16.6%

Top 3 SU players in this category last year (not counting walk-ons):
DC2 - 17.1%
RAK - 12.1%
Keita - 12.0%

Nicely done. That is probably more complicated than rebounds per minute although he most likely dominates there as well.

 

[orangefan13]

Ottis Hill had a nice face up jumper out to around 12 feet by the end of his time. If we have guyswho can do it consistently we would get them those shots. Rick started out taking those as a Senior but just couldn't make enough. Fab was allowed to shoot them and in fact had 2-3 in one game early on that really helped us. Can't recall the game though. It seems both DC2 and Rak have this ability but rarely look for it. Rak has hit out to 15 looking very smooth and then he won't take that shot for another 5 games when the shot clock is expiring.

I think Rak is really more of a 5 that we want to be a 4. He always seems more comfortable at the5 ad played there in highschool I believe.

Agree with everything but I still see raks potential at the four where he will go around and hopefully one day shoot over people better.Hes much better getting around his man then Rick Jackson and his 13 ppg ever could, imo even better then warrick, or Fab. He has a explosive pivot and dribble, he still cant go right with it well but going left lookout. That is more of a pf's skill. If he had a true hook he could put up 15-18 ppg this year with his conditioning. He could use some work on receiving the ball while sealing off he has a tougher time with that then dajuan.

 

[moqui]

Coleman is an elite rebounder, and that is the area where Syracuse has been weakest over the past few seasons.

There are always going to be at least 3 guys on the court who can score, there is room for a role player who brings something else of value to the table. And, while he is providing that value, he is, as Sgt. points out, slowly developing his offensive game.

Henny & Coke already provided the total rebound percentage; let's break it down even more. Here are the 7 guys who are most likely to be in the Center/Forward rotations when conference play begins