Comparisons to Former Players

[SWC75]

He was ambitious with the ball in his hands as a freshman (when Etan and Otis spent a bit of time playing together). And Etan perfected a baby hook and achieved a terrific field goal percentage. So maybe "little offensive skill" assessed him too harshly.

But he didn't have the greatest touch and he could only score from a couple spots in a couple ways (and mainly, as you note, with his back to the hoop). I'd categorize him in the bottom half of offensive SU centers in the Boeheim era, which would put him far below what everyone claims Coleman's skill level to be.

[**EDIT: in the spirit of wasting a little time on a Wednesday evening, I threw together a somewhat arbitrary and subjective ranking and learned that Etan is in fact in the top half of the 20 centers who logged serious minutes in the Boeheim era - 9th, behind Hill, Onuaku, Seikaly, Ellis, Schayes, Bouie, Jackson, and Manning. Better offensive skills than Hawkins, Melo, Reafsnyder, Watkins, McRae, Ovcina, Keita, Siock, McNeil, Forth, and Celuck, in my estimation. This would be a fun thread by itself, by the way.]

(I'm not as bullish on Coleman as some, but he does seem to have better touch [when he's calm] and much better hands than Etan.)

The SU website has numbers back to the 1982-83 season. Here is what i have for SU's starting centers in that time in points per 40 minutes:
1982-83 Andre Hawkins 11.0
1983-84 Andre Hawkins 14.7
1984-85 Rony Seikaly 12.9
1985-86 Rony Seikaly 14.8
1986-87 Rony Seikaly 22.2
1987-88 Rony Seikaly 21.0
1988-89 Derrick Coleman 20.4
1989-90 LeRon Ellis 11.3
1990-91 LeRon Ellis 15.3
1991-92 Conrad MacRae 11.8
1992-93 Conrad MacRae 16.4
1993-94 Otis Hill 13.2
1994-95 Otis Hill 12.8
1995-96 Otis Hill 20.8
1996-97 Otis Hill 21.3
1997-98 Etan Thomas 15.7
1998-99 Etan Thomas 17.7
1999-00 Etan Thomas 16.8
2000-01 Bill Celuck 10.0
2001-02 Craig Forth 9.1
2002-03 Craig Forth 8.5
2003-04 Craig Forth 9.8
2004-05 Craig Forth 9.5
2005-06 Darryl Watkins 9.6
2006-07 Darryl Watkins 11.1
2007-08 Arinze Onuaku 16.6
2008-09 Arinze Onuaku 15.5
2009-10 Arinze Onuaku 18.5
2010-11 Fab Melo 9.4
2011-12 Fab Melo 12.3
2012-13 DuJuan Coleman 15.0

I'd rate Etan behind Seikaly, Derrick Coleman, (who was a forward playing center for one year), Hill and (slightly) Onuaku. I recall Bouie as a defensive center whose offensive game was all dunks and lay-ups. Thomas was better than Rosie on offense. Schayes would out-rank Etan on offense because of his shooting ability. Rick Jackson was never our starting center although he did back up AO his first couple of years. I would rank him above Etan offensively but moreso in the years when he was playing power forward. Manning might have been better when he played for Washington but not here. Ellis was not comperable to Etan offensively.

 

[dundundun]

Cooney is NOTHING like McCroskey. NOTHING. McCroskey was nothing but trouble from day one. Cooney is a very nice young man... who red-shirted when asked ... and who is very amenable to coaching and is determined to improve.

Grant has a totally different skill set from Demetris... much more athleticism... and much more upside.

Keita and Kueth have similar positive personalities... but that is about it insofar as comparisons.

Not that much was expected from Flynn (as compared to what fans expect from Ennis) -- at least by most fans who considered his recruitment as a favor to Harris.

From what I remember, the belief that Flynn's recruitment was a favor to Harris was really only around in the early part of his HS career. Pretty sure that by the time he got to the hill (as a McD's AA, top 20 recruit) people were expecting plenty from him. Granted, before the Devo/Rautins injuries, I don't think people were counting on Flynn to be THE GUY in our backcourt the way that people want/expect Ennis to be

 

[OttoMets]

...

I'd rate Etan behind Seikaly, Derrick Coleman, (who was a forward playing center for one year), Hill and (slightly) Onuaku. I recall Bouie as a defensive center whose offensive game was all dunks and lay-ups. Thomas was better than Rosie on offense. Schayes would out-rank Etan on offense because of his shooting ability. Rick Jackson was never our starting center although he did back up AO his first couple of years. I would rank him above Etan offensively but moreso in the years when he was playing power forward. Manning might have been better when he played for Washington but not here. Ellis was not comperable to Etan offensively.

Good stuff (and www.orangehoops.org has stats going back forever).

I understand your point about Manning - he only played about 700 minutes here and didn't produce much. Did he have more offensive skill than Etan? I think so, but it's understandable to be reluctant to rank a known producer behind someone who averaged fewer than 3 points per game on 47% shooting with 15 total assists in two years.

Etan and Rosie were so similar - marked increases in production over the career, limited range. Rosie's highs were higher; maybe I'm also biased by the Michigan State game - not sure that Etan could be relied upon as a great scorer.

Ellis was really skilled. Lost his confidence as a junior and wasn't consistent. But he could do a little of everything on the offensive end; he could handle some and shoot (and make) out to 20'.

Ricky's tough. I'm ignoring Derrick as a center, but keeping Jackson. Inconsistent, yes. But he spent a lot of time at the five for all four years (once Melo disappeared, Jackson played 30+ minutes a game on the block as a senior).

I did take into account more than points per 40; some important skills aren't quantified on that line. Here were my rankings and rationales (this is fun):


1. Otis Hill Best moves of the bunch, facing or back to the basket. Could score with both hands.

2. Arinze Onuaku Very effective; range more limited than Hill. And free throw shooting has to matter - it's part of the offense, too.

3. Rony Seikaly Took a couple years, but probably had the best senior season of all.

4. LeRon Ellis Not a featured player but could score in a number of ways; good range.

5. Danny Schayes Production (and minutes) limited; very skilled.

6. Roosevelt Bouie Developed into an efficient scorer. Difficulty catching the ball early on.

7. Rick Jackson Great with the left. No right. Not much face-up and struggled up close his first three years. Excellent passer.

8. Richie Manning Several skills; minimal production.

9. Etan Thomas Nice hook with both hands; capable of making space; could dunk with authority.

10. Andre Hawkins Adept at ducking punches.

11. Fab Melo Could do a wide range of things but was too inconsistent with each of them. Missed a ton of layups. Good passer.

12. J.B. Reafsnyder Underrated – nice face-up jumper.

13. Mookie Watkins Bad hands. Some face-up (range out to 14' or so), developed a decent post game.

14. Conrad McRae Hands. Again. Great dunker.

15. Elvir Ovcina Considered leaving him off; roamed the perimeter with limited success. Savvy passer.

16. Baye Keita Good passer. Little range, no sure thing with layups. Shaky hands.

17. Dave Siock Could shoot a little.

18. Jeremy McNeil Shaky hands. Made the put-back we all remember.

19. Craig Forth Bad hands, little lift, inconsistent with layups. Good screener.

20. Billy Celuck As bad as everyone says? Maybe not. Better than anyone here? No.

 

[Jeremy L.]

That Keita and Duany comparison was spot on.

 

[OttoMets]

That Keita and Duany comparison was spot on.

OK, I'll bite. How?

 

[SWC75]

Good stuff (and www.orangehoops.org has stats going back forever).

I understand your point about Manning - he only played about 700 minutes here and didn't produce much. Did he have more offensive skill than Etan? I think so, but it's understandable to be reluctant to rank a known producer behind someone who averaged fewer than 3 points per game on 47% shooting with 15 total assists in two years.

Etan and Rosie were so similar - marked increases in production over the career, limited range. Rosie's highs were higher; maybe I'm also biased by the Michigan State game - not sure that Etan could be relied upon as a great scorer.

Ellis was really skilled. Lost his confidence as a junior and wasn't consistent. But he could do a little of everything on the offensive end; he could handle some and shoot (and make) out to 20'.

Ricky's tough. I'm ignoring Derrick as a center, but keeping Jackson. Inconsistent, yes. But he spent a lot of time at the five for all four years (once Melo disappeared, Jackson played 30+ minutes a game on the block as a senior).

I did take into account more than points per 40; some important skills aren't quantified on that line. Here were my rankings and rationales (this is fun):


1. Otis Hill Best moves of the bunch, facing or back to the basket. Could score with both hands.

2. Arinze Onuaku Very effective; range more limited than Hill. And free throw shooting has to matter - it's part of the offense, too.

3. Rony Seikaly Took a couple years, but probably had the best senior season of all.

4. LeRon Ellis Not a featured player but could score in a number of ways; good range.

5. Danny Schayes Production (and minutes) limited; very skilled.

6. Roosevelt Bouie Developed into an efficient scorer. Difficulty catching the ball early on.

7. Rick Jackson Great with the left. No right. Not much face-up and struggled up close his first three years. Excellent passer.

8. Richie Manning Several skills; minimal production.

9. Etan Thomas Nice hook with both hands; capable of making space; could dunk with authority.

10. Andre Hawkins Adept at ducking punches.

11. Fab Melo Could do a wide range of things but was too inconsistent with each of them. Missed a ton of layups. Good passer.

12. J.B. Reafsnyder Underrated – nice face-up jumper.

13. Mookie Watkins Bad hands. Some face-up (range out to 14' or so), developed a decent post game.

14. Conrad McRae Hands. Again. Great dunker.

15. Elvir Ovcina Considered leaving him off; roamed the perimeter with limited success. Savvy passer.

16. Baye Keita Good passer. Little range, no sure thing with layups. Shaky hands.

17. Dave Siock Could shoot a little.

18. Jeremy McNeil Shaky hands. Made the put-back we all remember.

19. Craig Forth Bad hands, little lift, inconsistent with layups. Good screener.

20. Billy Celuck As bad as everyone says? Maybe not. Better than anyone here? No.

You've got to be kidding on Mookie. When did he ever make a jump shot? And I think we all remember when Conrad did.

And I'll take actual production over presumed "ability" any day.

1991-92 Conrad MacRae 11.8
1992-93 Conrad MacRae 16.4

2005-06 Darryl Watkins 9.6
2006-07 Darryl Watkins 11.1

 

[Jeremy L.]

OK, I'll bite. How?

Not by position obviously, but as the OP stated, you pretty much know what you'll get out of him, maybe a few points from Keita (Duany clearly more of a scorer) but it's big when you get contributions from both of them. Seems that the team gels when he's on the court as well. It's more from a role standpoint than an actual gameplay standpoint.

 

[OttoMets]

You've got to be kidding on Mookie. When did he ever make a jump shot? And I think we all remember when Conrad did.

And I'll take actual production over presumed "ability" any day.

1991-92 Conrad MacRae 11.8
1992-93 Conrad MacRae 16.4

2005-06 Darryl Watkins 9.6
2006-07 Darryl Watkins 11.1

I think the first bucket of his career was about a 15-footer from the baseline in front of the visiting bench. And he made a few more. Trouble is, he didn't have the hands to give any consistent production; this was compounded by his not having much in the way of a point guard.

Conrad had many of the same problems, though I'd take Autry's two middle years over McNamara and Wright/Devendorf.

(Keep in mind, I only claimed to be talking about "offensive skill" - specifically not actual production.) Both players had bad hands. Conrad made a memorable 15-footer. Based on my observation, he couldn't face up and shoot as well as Mookie could. Each had a somewhat reliable post move.

 

[OttoMets]

Not by position obviously, but as the OP stated, you pretty much know what you'll get out of him, maybe a few points from Keita (Duany clearly more of a scorer) but it's big when you get contributions from both of them. Seems that the team gels when he's on the court as well. It's more from a role standpoint than an actual gameplay standpoint.

Man, I'm not really seeing it. Two of my favorites, two high-energy vocal leaders, this much is true. Baye's been a little inconsistent, though (which is why his incredible free-throw shooting and offensive outburst in the Big East was so much more exciting), while Duany (as you note) was a bit more even-keeled (when his minutes were stable, at least).

 

[Jeremy L.]

Man, I'm not really seeing it. Two of my favorites, two high-energy vocal leaders, this much is true. Baye's been a little inconsistent, though (which is why his incredible free-throw shooting and offensive outburst in the Big East was so much more exciting), while Duany (as you note) was a bit more even-keeled (when his minutes were stable, at least).

I agree completely. Duany was much more consistent (they lost one game I believe when he scored 10+ in 2003). I think it's the role playing that makes them similar to me personally. As far as an overall game no question Duany was a bigger factor