Cooney Criticisms

[newmexicuse]

I haven't seen either of the two exhibitions.

However, I am amazed about all of the criticism surrounding Trevor this early in the season - make that the pre-season.

So many on this forum on his case and giving up on the kid.

No. I am not sold on Trevor beyond saying he is what he is. I was hoping he would add some dimensions to his game such as pullup J's and/or driving ability over the summer. From reading about the two games that evidently has not happened. So what do we have ?

We have a hard working kid who gives it is all and will always be hot & cold from outside, and that is basically the core of his game. Let's just leave it at that.

Some say he isn't good enough to start. maybe, maybe not, that is up to the Coach.

If there is to be a criticism regarding Trevor's play, a big part of it has to be on the Coach. When Trevor is out there he has to try and play his game for better or worse. It is the Coach's job to get him off the court when we have "cold" Trevor. Truthfully, Trevor doesn't bring enough other dimensions to be a big asset when his shot is off. Last year, there was no accountability in terms of PT during those off games. This year we appear to have a new & improved Buss, so there has to be accountability, but that accountability is on the Coach to allocate PT appropriately and not on the kid.

Nobody can say that Trevor doesn't give 100% when he is out there, so that is all we as fans can ask of a kid. The rest is on the Coach to get him the right amount of PT in a given game.

 

[dasher]

I haven't seen either of the two exhibitions.

However, I am amazed about all of the criticism surrounding Trevor this early in the season - make that the pre-season.

So many on this forum on his case and giving up on the kid.

No. I am not sold on Trevor beyond saying he is what he is. I was hoping he would add some dimensions to his game such as pullup J's and/or driving ability over the summer. From reading about the two games that evidently has not happened. So what do we have ?

We have a hard working kid who gives it is all and will always be hot & cold from outside, and that is basically the core of his game. Let's just leave it at that.

Some say he isn't good enough to start. maybe, maybe not, that is up to the Coach.

If there is to be a criticism regarding Trevor's play, a big part of it has to be on the Coach. When Trevor is out there he has to try and play his game for better or worse. It is the Coach's job to get him off the court when we have "cold" Trevor. Truthfully, Trevor doesn't bring enough other dimensions to be a big asset when his shot is off. Last year, there was no accountability in terms of PT during those off games. This year we appear to have a new & improved Buss, so there has to be accountability, but that accountability is on the Coach to allocate PT appropriately and not on the kid.

Nobody can say that Trevor doesn't give 100% when he is out there, so that is all we as fans can ask of a kid. The rest is on the Coach to get him the right amount of PT in a given game.

How about the attention other teams give TC that allows other syracuse players easier shots? The shooting guard is always a whipping boy on this board.

 

[Jamesvillecuse]

I thought Trevor did a better job in this game with trying to get to the basket. I agree with Dasher the attention paid to Cooney will immensely help our other shooters. Plus if Rak can be a consistent scorer inside it will free up others on the outside and Cooney will get more open looks. I think it is just a matter of time before Cooney finds his stroke. It seems he doesn't quite finish his follow through on his release and he falls backwards instead of straight up.

 

[OttoMets]

At every moment, this team needs a shooting guard who can score in a number of ways at a decent percentage. We haven't had it for years and the team won't have a successful season if the trend continues.

No one's been more patient about Cooney than I; it seemed perfectly reasonable to me for Boeheim to encourage him to shoot through his slump last winter. After all, the kid who hit 50% of his November and December threes was bound to give us more 4-10 nights than 1-10 nights, right?

One shouldn't draw too many conclusions from two exhibition games, but I'm troubled by Cooney's apparent lack of development: no distribution, no driving, very little midrange game. If he's still a one-dimensional offensive player, the team's going to need his minutes to diminish.

We're not there yet. But this is certainly something to watch in coming weeks.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

How about the attention other teams give TC that allows other syracuse players easier shots? The shooting guard is always a whipping boy on this board.

Seriously, Trevor has entered the Triche zone.

 

[Fly Rodder]

Cooney cannot fail. Only the team can fail Cooney.

 

[doc05]

I hope the kid turns it around -- but his play coming down the stretch last year and from what we've seen thus far in exhibition play is troubling. Can't have a starting shooting playing 30+ minutes who can't shoot, break down defenses or create his own shot. I understand it's tough to criticize these kids on a message board -- but this is what it is -- a fan forum. It's going to happen. Again, I am pulling for the kid and want to see him right the ship.

 

[OttoMets]

Seriously, Trevor has entered the Triche zone.

The success of the two looks pretty similar right now. Maybe we've been spoiled by Waiters in 2012 and the two-guard platoon in 2010. It just seems to me that our shooting guard a) has got to shoot better than the low 40s and b) not have those single-digit scoring nights while eating up a lot of possessions. In short, more than any other guy on the team, he's gotta score.

Edit: Looking at numbers from the past few seasons, this isn't a great trend. Even during our bad 2007-2008 year, Harris and Scoop were able to shoot well from the off-guard spot. Not since Devendorf's sophomore slump of 2007 (.412) have we seen such low percentages as Triche and Cooney have managed in recent years.

2012: Waiters (.476)
2010: [committee] (.470)
2009: Devendorf (.444)
2008: Harris (.469) and Jardine (.467)

After a string of seasons in which scoring wasn't a problem, I think we're just used to better. .411/.416/.422/.419 doesn't cut it from a very important position. This is exacerbated when the player's teammates also struggle to score consistently.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

The success of the two looks pretty similar right now. Maybe we've been spoiled by Waiters in 2012 and the two-guard platoon in 2010. It just seems to me that our shooting guard a) has got to shoot better than the low 40s and b) not have those single-digit scoring nights while eating up a lot of possessions. In short, more than any other guy on the team, he's gotta score.

Waiters is an interesting comparison, because as a shooting guard (from behind the 3) I never really liked him. His ability to drive and finish was outstanding and made him into a draft pick, but his shooting form was odd. We sure could use a guy like that now.

 

[Fly Rodder]

(Conference play)
Player A: .511 eFG% 5.6 TRB% 13.8 AST%
Player B: .466 eFG% 3.9 TRB% 4.9 AST%

 

[OttoMets]

Waiters is an interesting comparison, because as a shooting guard (from behind the 3) I never really liked him. His ability to drive and finish was outstanding and made him into a draft pick, but his shooting form was odd. We sure could use a guy like that now.

I kind of felt the same way (that Cincinnati game was an anomaly) but it's funny to look back - we could use a guy like that now.

I'm putting some of these numbers into Excel and it's startling, aside from McNamara's numbers and a couple really ugly DeShaun years, to see that what Triche and Cooney have produced is extremely bad for a Boeheim off-guard. And McNamara always played with a Pace or someone who could exceed 50% from the field, which might not have stretched the floor put at least put points on the scoreboard.

2011 (overburdened Scoop, inconsistent Triche, and fat/insubordinate Waiters all shooting about 41%) and 2001 (Griffin at .383, Crazy DeShaun managing a stunning .369, and James Thues and Duany playing too few minutes to matter) are the only seasons that approach what we've seen lately:

2014: .411 from the starting point, .408 from the off-guard, and .380 from their only real backup.
2013: .393 from the starting point, .416 from the off-guard, and .322 from their only backup.

It's virtually impossible to win with numbers like that. You'd never guess that one of those two backcourts earned its way to a Final Four.

 

[SmilinBob]

Cooney is an interesting player. Plays hard but is very hot and cold and when he's cold how long does Boeheim wait for him to heat? Curious if the team starts to get another option at 2 if Boeheim will wait as long as he has during the cold streaks.

Cooney's move with the ball...the ball low when he pretends to make a move...is not the kind of thing I'd like to see him do. Pump fakes and quick bursts instead as defenders usually jump to him quickly, that hang the ball low serves absolutely no purpose and actually just gives the defense time to defend.... I never saw the value and imo a bad habit that he has to get rid of.

 

[newmexicuse]

How about the attention other teams give TC that allows other syracuse players easier shots? The shooting guard is always a whipping boy on this board.

Many make that argument.

Personally, I think it is mythical. Though I haven't run the stats myself, I would be willing to wager a large amount that when Trevor hits 40% Plus his Plus/Minus is waaaay higher than when he hits less than 40%. When he has those 25% games forget about it.

If Trevor was getting other players easier shots even when he is off, his plus/minus should be steady.

Maybe SWC can prove the case one way or the other.

 

[Fly Rodder]

If teams were over committing to Cooney, I have zero doubt that the game plan would be for him to feed the bigs or cutters. He's not a passer, though.

 

[dasher]

Many make that argument.

Personally, I think it is mythical. Though I haven't run the stats myself, I would be willing to wager a large amount that when Trevor hits 40% Plus his Plus/Minus is waaaay higher than when he hits less than 40%. When he has those 25% games forget about it.

If Trevor was getting other players easier shots even when he is off, his plus/minus should be steady.

Maybe SWC can prove the case one way or the other.

ask coleman and ellis amd owens about the defenses they faced once roe was gone. Another whipping boy by the way.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

We have a hard working kid who gives it is all and will always be hot & cold from outside,

Can that not be said for the rest of our players?

I feel like there is a racial element to the way we talk about Cooney's game. Is he a hard worker? Good basketball IQ? Is he scrappy? Does he make the most of his talent? Is he gritty and full of determination? Again, I'm not saying anyone's racist, but I'm saying that when you read some of the positives people post about Cooney's games, well... it's a bit stereotypical.

If there is to be a criticism regarding Trevor's play, a big part of it has to be on the Coach. When Trevor is out there he has to try and play his game for better or worse. It is the Coach's job to get him off the court when we have "cold" Trevor. Truthfully, Trevor doesn't bring enough other dimensions to be a big asset when his shot is off. Last year, there was no accountability in terms of PT during those off games. This year we appear to have a new & improved Buss, so there has to be accountability, but that accountability is on the Coach to allocate PT appropriately and not on the kid.

Great point. If it's true that Cooney's legs wore down last season and we can attribute his shooting slump to tired legs, I'm really hoping we get a scenario where we get 20-25 minutes of the Cooney that makes 40%+ of his threes, rather than 30-35 minutes of the Cooney that makes 30% of his threes.

 

[newmexicuse]

ask coleman and ellis amd owens about the defenses they faced once roe was gone. Another whipping boy by the way.

Totally agree, but that was different. Those teams had zero outside shooting threats. The point is that a team needs outside shooting to open up the middle, but that doesn't mean that Cooney needs to be that guy. Fly made a great point above in that Cooney is not a particularly good passer to get the ball down low when the D does come in his face. If he were a great passer then the argument has more credence.

This team has potential for some other outside shooting beyond Trevor. Buss, BJ, KJ, and to some extent MacC all could hit some treys. Jimmy needs to go with the hot hand. That is what will open up the middle. There is just no reason to think that Trevor is the only guy on the roster who can draw D's to him. In fact, if I am an opposing coach, I would not pay any particular attention to Trevor until he makes at least one since he is so obviously a hot & cold player.

 

[SoBeCuse]

I'll start worrying about Cooney a few games into the regular season if he struggles. I don't think we can tell much right now. I haven't seen the games yet but I would assume the staff is trying to integrate the newer players into the offense and aren't too worried about Cooney. Yes, teams I would think will try to take him out of the games. By MSG time, I hope other players are ready to contribute if this happens. I personally am not going to make any judgements until after MSG against some very good competition. I'll be concerned if Cooney doesn't drive or contribute in other ways at MSG (assuming his shot isn't falling or doesn't get any good looks.).

 

[newmexicuse]

Can that not be said for the rest of our players?

I feel like there is a racial element to the way we talk about Cooney's game. Is he a hard worker? Good basketball IQ? Is he scrappy? Does he make the most of his talent? Is he gritty and full of determination? Again, I'm not saying anyone's racist, but I'm saying that when you read some of the positives people post about Cooney's games, well... it's a bit stereotypical.


Great point. If it's true that Cooney's legs wore down last season and we can attribute his shooting slump to tired legs, I'm really hoping we get a scenario where we get 20-25 minutes of the Cooney that makes 40%+ of his threes, rather than 30-35 minutes of the Cooney that makes 30% of his threes.

I fail to see anything racial here. I don't know about the current roster, but in the past we have had plenty of players of any race that have been less than hard workers. Last season, even when Trevor slumped, clearly the effort was there. Nobody expended more energy (even if much of it was running around inefficiently in circles) than Trevor did trying to free himself up. BB IQ - I have never made a comment about Trevor's BB IQ and frankly I don't recall any posts by anybody else on that topic.

 

[Madbiker]

I haven't seen either of the two exhibitions.

However, I am amazed about all of the criticism surrounding Trevor this early in the season - make that the pre-season.

So many on this forum on his case and giving up on the kid.

No. I am not sold on Trevor beyond saying he is what he is. I was hoping he would add some dimensions to his game such as pullup J's and/or driving ability over the summer. From reading about the two games that evidently has not happened. So what do we have ?

We have a hard working kid who gives it is all and will always be hot & cold from outside, and that is basically the core of his game. Let's just leave it at that.

Some say he isn't good enough to start. maybe, maybe not, that is up to the Coach.

If there is to be a criticism regarding Trevor's play, a big part of it has to be on the Coach. When Trevor is out there he has to try and play his game for better or worse. It is the Coach's job to get him off the court when we have "cold" Trevor. Truthfully, Trevor doesn't bring enough other dimensions to be a big asset when his shot is off. Last year, there was no accountability in terms of PT during those off games. This year we appear to have a new & improved Buss, so there has to be accountability, but that accountability is on the Coach to allocate PT appropriately and not on the kid.

Nobody can say that Trevor doesn't give 100% when he is out there, so that is all we as fans can ask of a kid. The rest is on the Coach to get him the right amount of PT in a given game.

You call this criticism? If he plays like this in an ACC game and we lose, then you'll see real criticism.

 

[OttoMets]

...
I'm putting some of these numbers into Excel ...

I don't know that anyone can draw too many conclusions from these numbers. One is that it helps to have a point guard (or at least a reserve) who can shoot, especially when your off guard can't.

A second is that Syracuse really struggled to recruit guards with shooting skills after the 1996 Final Four. In the 28-year three-point shot era, four of our six worst shooting backcourts played in a five-year stretch between 1997 and 2001. The other two played the last two seasons.

Some of our better shooting backcourts played for bad teams. One of our worst (1991) played for a very good team (until the last 45 minutes of the year, that is). And 1989 was remarkable.

Anyway, a lot of the criticism directed at Cooney and Triche likely stems from the fact that they weren't as good at their role (shooting) as many of the players who came before them.

(Of the five who fared worse, one is possibly the most popular player in school history, one is likely the least, another took a ton of criticism because he wasn't Kenny Anderson, one made up for his lack of shooting skills with an otherwise strong offensive skillset, and one was Jason Cipolla.)

Guard shooting in three-point shot era
point off
reserve
2014 0.411 0.408 0.38
2013 0.393 0.416 0.322
2012 0.474 0.422 0.476
2011 0.415 0.419 0.411
2010 0.5 0.438 0.489
2009 0.46 0.444 0.38
2008 0.459 0.469 0.467
2007 0.399 0.412 0.372
2006 0.353 0.445 0.411
2005 0.37 0.571 0.391
2004 0.53 0.384 0.502
2003 0.401 0.439 0.548
2002 0.44 0.382 0.454
2001 0.383 0.369
2000 0.411 0.443 0.43
1999 0.407 0.386 0.427
1998 0.366 0.41 0.418
1997 0.379 0.402 0.411
1996 0.436 0.383 0.452
1995 0.457 0.459 0.53
1994 0.45 0.501 0.478
1993 0.432 0.438
1992 0.367 0.448 0.355
1991 0.402 0.408 0.514
1990 0.424 0.51 0.4
1989 0.546 0.492 0.457
1988 0.519 0.422 0.427
1987 0.531 0.491 0.465

EDIT: Well, that's useless. Sorry about the formatting, all.

 

[tbonezone]

so knock down a few jumpers and shut us all up. nothing would make me happier. til then...


(p.s stop the nonsense.coaches ain't drawing up defenses to stop a guy who's proven he can't shoot)

 

[AlaskaSU]

Instead of basketball IQ lets call it nose for the ball, ie being in the right place at the right time. No one was better than Moten. A shooting guard needs to either have it or be a consistent shooter. Buss seems to have a nose for the ball. Cooney seems to only have it on D. From what I've seen, although it is a small sample, I want Buss to have more minutes. His D might not be as good as Cooney, but it isn't bad. He has more ways to score than Trevor. He also has potential to become a facilitator by learning to pass while penetrating which is something that Trevor does not do. It seems to be a matter of confidence as he has shown flashes of being able to penetrate. He has good size and strength but he never seems to post up. If he is going to be a one dimensional three point specialist he needs to be more consistent, ala Novak for example. That does not mean that Cooney has to lose his starters position but it does mean that if he is cold he gets the hook. Last year we had no real alternatives, as Buss was too wild, but this year is different. It appears that MG, Buss and Rock have made big strides, BJ is still an unknown, but Trevor looks like last years Trevor and same for Roberson. We shall see if these early perceptions hold true.

 

[Oakland]

Personally, I like our SG to make a bunch of baskets. I hope Malachi isn't coming here with the intention of only drawing defensive attention away from other players.

How about the attention other teams give TC that allows other syracuse players easier shots? The shooting guard is always a whipping boy on this board.

 

[Lawrinson14]

Forget Cooney, Tyler Roberson could become a freemason with all the bricks he has laid these past 2 exhibitions.