Credibility of Accusers

[Eric15]

Let me just preface this post by saying that I haven't decided yet whether I think Bernie is guilty or innocent. I tend to be very thoughtful and cautious when choosing a side on situations like this, because I find (a) someone being falsely accused and having their reputation destroyed, or (b) a victim that was truly molested being shunned by society and called a liar, to be equally gut-wrenchingly horrible scenarios.

I've read many, many times on this board over the past few days of people calling out the credibility of the accusers, saying they look sketchy, appear to be on drugs, look like losers, etc etc. I guess my question is, how do you reconcile the fact that sexual abuse victims often lack traditional credibility regardless of whether they're innocent or guilty? Kids that are on the fringe, come from broken homes, lack confidence, lack emotional/physical affection, are often prime and easy targets for abusers. Also, it is an absolute fact that sexual abuse can destroy a person psychologically and lead to drug and alcohol abuse. So, in terms of sexual abuse, should traditional "credibility" standards be a factor in determining whether a victim is lying?

Again, the jury in my brain is still in deliberations on Bernie. My post is more about credibility of sexual abuse victims in general.

 

[longislandcuse]

I see what you're saying and all great points. Some of us definately may be going overboard in reaction to the overboard demonization by ESPN. However, we do have some facts. Facts are Tim Welsh roomed with Bernie Fine during the time of these allegations and has said so, this case was already investigated and determined to be not credible enough to go with by 3 seperate entities (ESPN, SU, PS), the 4 witnesses given all said the accuser is lying, the story has many, many holes that havent been answered because the only on the record quotes we have from the victim are leading questions by his lawyer ahem, journalist Marc Schwarz, and Jim Boeheim went on record saying this was about money before which is a strong, strong accusation for him to make and gives a motive even if the SOL or whatever to sue has expired, be damn sure if he could win this, he would get money in some kind of forum.

 

[Bortukal]

That's a tough, but very good question.

I will say this. If these two are inventing this story and are out for a quick payday then getting the police and DA investigators involved is the worst thing that could have happened to them. Until now, they have only been questioned by the relatively "friendly faces" of reporters and law firm investigators. Police are generally quite good at figuring out when someone's feeding them BS, and maintaing a lie under intense, methodical police questioning is no easy feat.

 

[armory]

It's not just the (lack of) credibility of the accusers, it's the combination of that and the plethora of holes in their stories.

 

[007]

Excellent post. As someone who plays a psychologist during the day, I could not agree more with your take on this. Although I understand the passion for the program that leads some to attack the credibility of the accusers, it is misguided at best.

 

[OrangeXtreme]

Kids that are on the fringe, come from broken homes, lack confidence, lack emotional/physical affection, are often prime and easy targets for abusers. Also, it is an absolute fact that sexual abuse can destroy a person psychologically and lead to drug and alcohol abuse. So, in terms of sexual abuse, should traditional "credibility" standards be a factor in determining whether a victim is lying?

It's also a fact that kids from broken homes end up with substance abuse problems without being molested.

 

[longislandcuse]

Excellent post. As someone who plays a psychologist during the day, I could not agree more with your take on this. Although I understand the passion for the program that leads some to attack the credibility of the accusers, it is misguided at best.

So its misguided to question an accuser who had his story blown apart by the four people he said would corroborate it and ended up saying hes lying? What's your take on Boeheim saying this is about money? ESPN's lawyers say he cant get money, bs he most certainly still can in many other ways aside from suing if he truly cant do that. This story has a ton of holes, none of which have been answered yet. We are perfectly justified to question the legitimacy and timing of his claims.

 

[AlaskaSU]

We all need patience. Hopefully there will be some resolution to this tragedy.

 

[Halfmooncuse]

Please don't assume that these two alledged victims think the same way as intelligent individuals do. What might be obvious to others as rational in deciding what to do given what ever motives they might have , may not be the way they think or act. It appears that neither of the two could coordinate a one car parade.

 

[SmilinBob]

I won't trash the accusers because we do not know the facts and to be honest, we may never know them. I'm hoping that these men where not abused nor any others by Fine and they are just doing this for attention/money and that's the best case scenario I can get out of this tragic situation.

 

[ImperialOrange]

Davis' relationship with Fine has been pretty well chronicled. It went bad when Fine refused to give him money after he already put himself in a bad situation. Fine cut him off and soon thereafter these allegations arose. You can see a motive for vengence on Davis' part. Add Lang, who refuted Davis' story at first, now in a tough place needing money as well so he changes his story. The timing of this coming right after the PSU thing is far too convenient.

Maybe there is more than surface value, but for all intents and purposes it looks like a money grab by someone that wouldn't mind ruining Fine's reputation and his step brother that could sure use the money.

 

[newmexicuse]

Let me just preface this post by saying that I haven't decided yet whether I think Bernie is guilty or innocent. I tend to be very thoughtful and cautious when choosing a side on situations like this, because I find (a) someone being falsely accused and having their reputation destroyed, or (b) a victim that was truly molested being shunned by society and called a liar, to be equally gut-wrenchingly horrible scenarios.

I've read many, many times on this board over the past few days of people calling out the credibility of the accusers, saying they look sketchy, appear to be on drugs, look like losers, etc etc. I guess my question is, how do you reconcile the fact that sexual abuse victims often lack traditional credibility regardless of whether they're innocent or guilty? Kids that are on the fringe, come from broken homes, lack confidence, lack emotional/physical affection, are often prime and easy targets for abusers. Also, it is an absolute fact that sexual abuse can destroy a person psychologically and lead to drug and alcohol abuse. So, in terms of sexual abuse, should traditional "credibility" standards be a factor in determining whether a victim is lying?

Again, the jury in my brain is still in deliberations on Bernie. My post is more about credibility of sexual abuse victims in general.

I was very shocked when the story first broke. I still have many related questions, which I have posted twice in seperate threads, and still remain unanswered.

I, too, am trying to be open minded. I was so shocked when the story first broke that I am really not sure where I stood in terms of my own opinion on whether or not Bernie did it. Let's just say for arguments sake that I was 50 - 50.

However, my opinion has swung and I now believe Bernie to be innocent. Why has my opinion swung?:

1. Holes in the stories of the accusers. Davis, in particular, saying he was molested hundreds of times, almost every day for years !!! How can that have happened without one slipup or one shred of corroborating evidence ? The other accuser is so obviously drugged out that no sane person can take his accustions seriously. Lang said he was only molested 15 to 20 times...pattern inconsistancy.

2. Boeheim's speaking out. Jimmy is betting the farm defending Bernie. If Bernie is found guilty Jimmy will look like a fool's fool and his entire legacy (and maybe even his job) will be in jeopardy. I believe Jimmy has a high degree of ethics and credability, and would not be outspoken in defense of any individual who he believed even might be guilty about a crime of this nature.

3. I am no psychologist, but from what little I know P e d o p h I l I ais serial in nature and virtually uncureable. Where are other credible accusers ?

4. Multiple previous investigations by news, media, police, and university have yielded nothing.

5. Original witnesses/corroborators of Davis have refuted his testimony.

6. At least one player (Blackwell) saying he does not remember Davis travelling with the team.

7. No support for Davis by his MOM !!!

 

[SmilinBob]

Davis' relationship with Fine has been pretty well chronicled. It went bad when Fine refused to give him money after he already put himself in a bad situation. Fine cut him off and soon thereafter these allegations arose. You can see a motive for vengence on Davis' part. Add Lang, who refuted Davis' story at first, now in a tough place needing money as well so he changes his story. The timing of this coming right after the PSU thing is far too convenient.

Maybe there is more than surface value, but for all intents and purposes it looks like a money grab by someone that wouldn't mind ruining Fine's reputation and his step brother that could sure use the money.

Possible or it could have been hush money just as well and Fine refused to pay any more than he already did.

 

[longislandcuse]

Possible or it could have been hush money just as well and Fine refused to pay any more than he already did.

Dun dun dunnnnn :blah:

 

[SmilinBob]

To add to another horrific possibility is that while these two men may turn out to be doing this for outside reasons my worry is that if they are doing so, it'll stop others who were really abused from coming out and telling their stories. No matter what happens, we're all losers in this thing. Many experts have commented that the psu thing has possibly opened some doors for the previously abused to come out and go to wherever they needed to go to get over what has happened to them, now if these two guys are lying, stopping even one person because of this is too many.

 

[ImperialOrange]

Possible or it could have been hush money just as well and Fine refused to pay any more than he already did.

Could be but then why did Lang's story change? I'm thinking these guys have to be getting some sort of money for being on TV otherwise they'd be annonomous and ESPN would report the story with no faces.

I have a step son, and I'm sure as he gets older we wont always get along. If he's end up making bad life chooses (god willing he wont) and gets into drugs (or goes to Penn State) I would have to cut him off moneywise. If he goes to police and says I molested him soon after because he's p*ssed, what defense would I really have? I'll know I didnt do it and the truth will set you free right? Well I guess we'll see if it sets Fine free.

 

[SmilinBob]

Could be but then why did Lang's story change? I'm thinking these guys have to be getting some sort of money for being on TV otherwise they'd be annonomous and ESPN would report the story with no faces.

I have a step son, and I'm sure as he gets older we wont always get along. If he's end up making bad life chooses (god willing he wont) and gets into drugs (or goes to Penn State) I would have to cut him off moneywise. If he goes to police and says I molested him soon after because he's p*ssed, what defense would I really have? I'll know I didnt do it and the truth will set you free right? Well I guess we'll see if it sets Fine free.

I hope the truth comes out as well but in this kind of situation things have a way of spinning out of control.

 

[ImperialOrange]

To add to another horrific possibility is that while these two men may turn out to be doing this for outside reasons my worry is that if they are doing so, it'll stop others who were really abused from coming out and telling their stories. No matter what happens, we're all losers in this thing. Many experts have commented that the psu thing has possibly opened some doors for the previously abused to come out and go to wherever they needed to go to get over what has happened to them, now if these two guys are lying, stopping even one person because of this is too many.

Falsely accusing someone of the crime is almost as bad as actually doing it and should have similar punishment. If you walk into work tomorrow and someone accuses you of something like this, you're life as you know it is over.

 

[SmilinBob]

Falsely accusing someone of the crime is almost as bad as actually doing it and should have similar punishment. If you walk into work tomorrow and someone accuses you of something like this, you're life as you know it is over.

I agree and it's unfortunately the way it rolls. Many people love to see the flash and trash but once facts start going onto the equation they get bored and move on to the next scandal.

 

[DoctorBombay]

The almost pathological need by Mark Schwartz & ESPN to make this "another PSU scandal", is why most of us are reacting the way we are.
When this first broke, my gut sank & my reaction was "there goes the program", & thats exactly the impression that OTL was pumping out.
Ironically, it wasn't until JB gave such a strong defense of Bernie that the tone started to change- the lynch mob put down their torches & pitchforks, & started listening to the history behind this story.
Suddenly, the narrative had changed & the focus became, "Why is this being brought up now & who's that corroborating accuser"? Add to that the shameful OTL segment featuring a babysitter/ex-gf of Davis', who had a "creepy vibe" about Bernie, & the "drawn shades" in his house, & folks are rightly wondering about the merits of this thing, as they should.
That interview did not advance the accusers' case, & the reactions of Bernie's friends, families, players, & colleagues, is very different than that at PSU. They've come out in FULL and vocal support- no one's cowering or hiding, especially JB.

The facts will come out either way, but the almost visceral counter-reaction to these charges has a ring of truth to them, & I think everyone sees it.

 

[AZOrange]

Let me just preface this post by saying that I haven't decided yet whether I think Bernie is guilty or innocent. I tend to be very thoughtful and cautious when choosing a side on situations like this, because I find (a) someone being falsely accused and having their reputation destroyed, or (b) a victim that was truly molested being shunned by society and called a liar, to be equally gut-wrenchingly horrible scenarios.

I've read many, many times on this board over the past few days of people calling out the credibility of the accusers, saying they look sketchy, appear to be on drugs, look like losers, etc etc. I guess my question is, how do you reconcile the fact that sexual abuse victims often lack traditional credibility regardless of whether they're innocent or guilty? Kids that are on the fringe, come from broken homes, lack confidence, lack emotional/physical affection, are often prime and easy targets for abusers. Also, it is an absolute fact that sexual abuse can destroy a person psychologically and lead to drug and alcohol abuse. So, in terms of sexual abuse, should traditional "credibility" standards be a factor in determining whether a victim is lying?

Again, the jury in my brain is still in deliberations on Bernie. My post is more about credibility of sexual abuse victims in general.

If you judge credibility based on appearance, twitches, stammering, I think you (not you personally) are crazy. I think credibility should be judged on the answers given and their consistency.

 

[orangefan13]

I don't mean this in harsh language but, they both defenetly sound homosexual or like they have been malested.

I almost wonder if they could have been malested by someone else. The cousin who only got it 12 times allegedly sounded much worse then the first kid who claims it happened 200 plus times which doesn't really add up.

I also would like to see/hear the video footage of 2005. Curious how they sounded and looked back then. Practice makes perfect.

There is a old law saying once the trial is finished its over. Suprised the university couldn't get rights to close the trial in 05, and the university whether compliant to justice doesn't get their moneys worth.