Cuse in the 2019 Draft...

[TheCusian]

I make a distinction between QB's that are mobile and can scramble occasionally like Wentz, and QB's that are actual RPO's like Wilson.

RPO has very little to do with the mobility of a QB. It's referring to reads pre and post snap - that allow a QB to either hand the ball off or make a pass (and sometimes run). Wentz's O at South Dakota State, Baylor's Briles O, Babers - and now the Eagles have pioneered a lot of it. Though to be fair - it's like West Coast O - a lot of teams are borrowing these concepts and are or will be running them all over.

Our offense is predicated on where LB/S/CB lineup. The most obvious is the screen out to our WR when the opposing CB's lineup a certain way. But we also run up the gut when the D spreads out to take the plays outside of the hash out.

Dungey is making all of those reads (alongside the RB, WR). It used to be a negative (he doesn't run a pro-offense) - but now Can Newton, Wentz, etc. run a form of it. In my opinion it's a specific skill that should give ED and TD a leg up; not a hindrance. Side note: Marrone and Nassib ran a bunch of this stuff in 2012, too. Marrone still runs some now.

EDIT: I'm 100% sure I got some of this wrong - coaches and more knowledgeable scheme guys feel free to correct.

 

[leftytg]

Wow , funny how most of this board have become TD homers discounting what our current guy has done for 4 years. That's the world that we live in and its sad and despicable. ED is one full year of play away from being on the big board this year . To call him Tebow is a flat out insult and actually calls out your fb acumen and understanding of the game. He is far better the player than Tebow EVER was. Tebow is still on the national radar bc of his good looks, name , AND ability to understand marketing .

Back to your post:
Custis is a monumental disappointment , has been for 5 years, took a shirt to make sure on that. Conway could be inside of the top 5 rounds if he stays healthy and has a solid year. Like alot of OUR Oline talent.

There is a very strong argument to be made that Tim Tebow is the greatest college football player of all time. Your bolded statement is absolutely, 100% batdookie insane. I am also faaaaarrrrrrr from a Tebow fan and am now incredibly resentful that I wrote a post lauding/defending him.

Dungey would have to improve leaps and bounds to even be considered a destitute man's version of Tebow. The fact that Tebow was more or less awful in the NFL is exactly why people are deluding themselves about Dungey. Tebow was considered a consummate leader with a bulldog mentality, a fearless and physical runner who was iffy on reads, arm strength, and accuracy. He was also very durable and, you know, won championships. Dungey is a lesser version of all those things, minus the winning and durability.

People don't realize how hard it is to be an NFL quarterback. The speed and complexity of defenses mean that QB's need a very specific assortment of attributes. Dungey just doesn't have those attributes.

 

[Doc5120]

There is a very strong argument to be made that Tim Tebow is the greatest college football player of all time. Your bolded statement is absolutely, 100% batdookie insane. I am also faaaaarrrrrrr from a Tebow fan and am now incredibly resentful that I wrote a post lauding/defending him.

Dungey would have to improve leaps and bounds to even be considered a destitute man's version of Tebow. The fact that Tebow was more or less awful in the NFL is exactly why people are deluding themselves about Dungey. Tebow was considered a consummate leader with a bulldog mentality, a fearless and physical runner who was iffy on reads, arm strength, and accuracy. He was also very durable and, you know, won championships. Dungey is a lesser version of all those things, minus the winning and durability.

People don't realize how hard it is to be an NFL quarterback. The speed and complexity of defenses mean that QB's need a very specific assortment of attributes. Dungey just doesn't have those attributes.

Could not agree more. Tim Tebow is the best college football player in the last 30 years or so. And when it comes to all-time discussions, there aren't a whole lot of guys you can argue are ahead of him. I love Dungey, and think he is underrrated nationally (and on this board), but Tim Tebow is in the top .01% of all-time cfb players, Eric Dungey is not in the same stratosphere.

 

[Alsacs]

Could not agree more. Tim Tebow is the best college football player in the last 30 years or so. And when it comes to all-time discussions, there aren't a whole lot of guys you can argue are ahead of him. I love Dungey, and think he is underrrated nationally (and on this board), but Tim Tebow is in the top .01% of all-time cfb players, Eric Dungey is not in the same stratosphere.

I am the one who brought Tebow into this.
I called Dungey a poor man’s Tebow.
I meant in context of college football.
Tebow was a dominant college player.
Ish took it to the NFL and that is where it went off the rails.
Dungey is a poor man’s Tebow. He can run when his read breaks down and isn’t accurate but effective as a college passer.
Tebow should have been an H-back in the pros but only wanted to play QB.
Dungey shouldn’t make that mistake. He should be a pro Hback/FB/TE if he wants to play in the NFL.

 

[Doc5120]

I am the one who brought Tebow into this.
I called Dungey a poor man’s Tebow.
I meant in context of college football.
Tebow was a dominant college player.
Ish took it to the NFL and that is where it went off the rails.
Dungey is a poor man’s Tebow. He can run when his read breaks down and isn’t accurate but effective as a college passer.
Tebow should have been an H-back in the pros but only wanted to play QB.
Dungey shouldn’t make that mistake. He should be a pro Hback/FB/TE if he wants to play in the NFL.

I agree with what you were saying when it comes to Dungey & Tebow in terms of college career & NFL prospects.

I was taking Ish's post in the context of college football. If he is comparing them as NFL prospects, well...he's still wrong, but not as badly as he would be if we're talking college.

 

[reedny]

RPO has very little to do with the mobility of a QB. It's referring to reads pre and post snap - that allow a QB to either hand the ball off or make a pass (and sometimes run). Wentz's O at South Dakota State, Baylor's Briles O, Babers - and now the Eagles have pioneered a lot of it. Though to be fair - it's like West Coast O - a lot of teams are borrowing these concepts and are or will be running them all over.

Our offense is predicated on where LB/S/CB lineup. The most obvious is the screen out to our WR when the opposing CB's lineup a certain way. But we also run up the gut when the D spreads out to take the plays outside of the hash out.

Dungey is making all of those reads (alongside the RB, WR). It used to be a negative (he doesn't run a pro-offense) - but now Can Newton, Wentz, etc. run a form of it. In my opinion it's a specific skill that should give ED and TD a leg up; not a hindrance. Side note: Marrone and Nassib ran a bunch of this stuff in 2012, too. Marrone still runs some now.

EDIT: I'm 100% sure I got some of this wrong - coaches and more knowledgeable scheme guys feel free to correct.

I was thinking it was "Run Pass Option".

 

[UnknownOrange]

I was thinking it was "Run Pass Option".

It doesn't mean the QB will run though. Just means the QB has the option to call the pass or run play - but if you have a mobile QB there may be a RB run or a QB run. All depends on the QB's reading of the defense

 

[reedny]

It doesn't mean the QB will run though. Just means the QB has the option to call the pass or run play - but if you have a mobile QB there may be a RB run or a QB run. All depends on the QB's reading of the defense

Right. It means he could run, or he could pass.

 

[UnknownOrange]

Right. It means he could run, or he could pass.

Or call a running play where he doesn't run

 

[tipphill]

it is truly amazing that this thread is about 2019 draft???
i think we need to focus on the business at hand. i wish us the best and dino even more success. i am a believer that a coach needs 5 years unless the first 3 or 4 were a disaster
i am not a fan of the alleged hurry up offense. well maybe we have a hybrid of sorts.
anyway dino is now on the clock.

 

[TheCusian]

He could. But that would be called a hand-off. No one's saying that NFL QB's, who are reasonably athletic to begin with, can't occasionally scramble. A pocket QB could also run an RPO play. But that's not what's meant by an RPO NFL QB, which is someone running a lot of RPO (and with pretty special abilities).

No. That’s not it at all.

An RPO NFL QB is Carson Wentz and Nick Foles and the system that just won the Super Bowl. It’s not a running QB running or passing.

Do a quick deep dive off of a google search. It’s a pretty specific definition. Farve said he used to run a few of them before they were called RPO plays.

 

[TheCusian]

it is truly amazing that this thread is about 2019 draft???
i think we need to focus on the business at hand. i wish us the best and dino even more success. i am a believer that a coach needs 5 years unless the first 3 or 4 were a disaster
i am not a fan of the alleged hurry up offense. well maybe we have a hybrid of sorts.
anyway dino is now on the clock.

Back to training for the season then. Can’t be a top fan without putting in the work, Tipp.

 

[reedny]

No. That’s not it at all.

An RPO NFL QB is Carson Wentz and Nick Foles and the system that just won the Super Bowl. It’s not a running QB running or passing.

Do a quick deep dive off of a google search. It’s a pretty specific definition. Farve said he used to run a few of them before they were called RPO plays.

I found this, and of course any QB could run it once in a while. I was referring to more of a specialist RPO QB -- someone like Wilson in the NFL or the kid we saw against Wake that runs A LOT of RPO stuff. Any QB can fake a run or a pass. But in RPO they read the linebackers not the end and the QB is a consistent running threat. Changing the Game: Dissecting the Run-Pass Option

 

[BillSU]

I found this, and of course any QB could run it once in a while. I was referring to more of a specialist RPO QB -- someone like Wilson in the NFL or the kid we saw against Wake that runs A LOT of RPO stuff. Any QB can fake a run or a pass. But in RPO they read the linebackers not the end and the QB is a consistent running threat. Changing the Game: Dissecting the Run-Pass Option

//

A Run-Pass Option (RPO) is a called run play with a pass option. It can be a DE, a LB, or just a specific alignment the QB is looking for. The OL blocks for the run the entire way, and the QB makes a decision pre or post snap (depending on which variation is called) to run/throw. Not really difficult to understand.

Back to the off topic of this thread: Eric Dungey. Here is a comparison. Three years vs. four.

ED:
PASS

G- 26

CMP - 560

ATT - 908

PCT – 61.7

YDS - 6472

TD - 40

INT - 21

RT -137.5

RUN

ATT – 359

YDS - 1239

TD – 20

///////

PASS

DMC:

G - 45

CMP -548

ATT - 938

PCT – 58.4

YDS - 8389

RT - 155.1

RUN

ATT- 465

YDS -1561

TD -19

I disagree with those who think he's a mediocre non NFL capable QB.
Taking Dungey's Bio from his Jr. year below - how did he gain the stats and records he has by not being accurate. You don't have nine 300 yd passing games by not being accurate.. Admittedly, he has had head injuries and that may hamper his chances. I hope he has a great year does not get hurt and gets drafted. 6'4” 228 size is great. If you add a hypothetical total of his best year passing he would have over 9000 yds. passing.

Career Overview: Has played in 26 games with 25 starts ... Missed parts of each of his first three seasons due to injury ... Has a school-record nine career 300-yard passing games and two 400-yard passing performances ... Accounted for three or more touchdowns in 12 of his 25 first-string appearances ... Owns or shares 12 school records ... In addition to holding the Syracuse record for most 300-yard passing games, Dungey is SU’s career leader in passing yards per game (248.9), total offense yards per game (296.6) and rushing touchdowns by a quarterback (20) ... Among the top 10 in program history in 10 additional career categories: completion percentage (2nd - 61.7), completions (3rd - 560), pass attempts (4th - 908), passing yards (4th - 6,472), total offense plays (4th - 1,267), yards of total offense (4th - 7,711), touchdown passes (5th - 40), touchdowns responsible for (5th - 60), pass efficiency rating (6th - 131.46) and most yards of total offense per play (6th - 6.1) ... One of six quarterbacks in team history to rush for at least 1,000 yards ... Dungey and Donovan McNabb are the only quarterbacks in program history with 6,000+ passing yards and 1,000+ rushing yards. GOSU

 

[reedny]

//

A Run-Pass Option (RPO) is a called run play with a pass option. It can be a DE, a LB, or just a specific alignment the QB is looking for. The OL blocks for the run the entire way, and the QB makes a decision pre or post snap (depending on which variation is called) to run/throw. Not really difficult to understand.

(emphasis is mine).

I didn't think it was difficult to understand ... since the whole point of RPO (as opposed to a regular faked handoff or even an option play) is the QB's threat to run ... hence its use by especially athletic QBs:

The main goal of the RPO is to confuse the defense and open up space for the quarterback to operate. However, if the quarterback is mobile enough to run on his own, that makes the RPO truly deadly.

It doesn't make a huge difference to me, but in RPO the QB is not reading the DE:

What makes RPO’s different from the traditional option play is the quarterback is not reading the defensive end; depending on the specific play called, the signal-caller focuses in on a linebacker or defensive back, attempting to either draw them in and vacate a passing lane with a fake handoff, leaving a receiver to run free, or fool them into reading pass and bailing into deep coverage, leaving the quarterback or running back to take off into the open field.

This (latter quote) makes sense to me ... because in RPO the O-Line blocks for the run and not the pass.

 

[Ish88888]

To sneak into the draft, Dungey would have to:

- Complete the season with 7+ wins
- Complete over 65% of his passes
- Read defenses better

The plus side is that the NFL is finally coming around to the RPO's and some of the concepts he's learned under Babers.

The NFL has to learn to love the RPO qb, at least 3/5 top qbs taken this year come from that system.

 

[Ish88888]

Sure, there are some RPO quarterbacks still alive. Michael Vic was the protoype, and currently Russell Wilson is playing that roll extremely well and cheating death and serious injury. But there are (precious) few others that have survived. I think RGIII was considered an RPO-style QB before they shredded his knees. Tyrod wants to be an RPO but has lasted because he listened to coaches and cut down his scrambling. So it's hard imagining Dungey, who's been injured every season, trying to be an RPO guy for any stretch of time in a league with assassins all over the field. He's very athletic. But he has to show more FB IQ and arm strength to put himself in a draft discussion.

RPO qbs do NOT = running dual threat qb. RPO is all over college football and was responsible for not only getting Baker drafted, but going top 5 as in #1. Being an RPO guy in college doesnt mean you have to be one in the pros.

The knock on josh allen was his 56% completion %. The explanation was jom playing in a pro style offense that slung it deep all day. The RPO system is what makes for completion %'s > 70%.

 

[Ish88888]

//

A Run-Pass Option (RPO) is a called run play with a pass option. It can be a DE, a LB, or just a specific alignment the QB is looking for. The OL blocks for the run the entire way, and the QB makes a decision pre or post snap (depending on which variation is called) to run/throw. Not really difficult to understand.

Back to the off topic of this thread: Eric Dungey. Here is a comparison. Three years vs. four.

ED:
PASS

G- 26

CMP - 560

ATT - 908

PCT – 61.7

YDS - 6472

TD - 40

INT - 21

RT -137.5

RUN

ATT – 359

YDS - 1239

TD – 20

///////

PASS

DMC:

G - 45

CMP -548

ATT - 938

PCT – 58.4

YDS - 8389

RT - 155.1

RUN

ATT- 465

YDS -1561

TD -19

I disagree with those who think he's a mediocre non NFL capable QB.
Taking Dungey's Bio from his Jr. year below - how did he gain the stats and records he has by not being accurate. You don't have nine 300 yd passing games by not being accurate.. Admittedly, he has had head injuries and that may hamper his chances. I hope he has a great year does not get hurt and gets drafted. 6'4” 228 size is great. If you add a hypothetical total of his best year passing he would have over 9000 yds. passing.

Career Overview: Has played in 26 games with 25 starts ... Missed parts of each of his first three seasons due to injury ... Has a school-record nine career 300-yard passing games and two 400-yard passing performances ... Accounted for three or more touchdowns in 12 of his 25 first-string appearances ... Owns or shares 12 school records ... In addition to holding the Syracuse record for most 300-yard passing games, Dungey is SU’s career leader in passing yards per game (248.9), total offense yards per game (296.6) and rushing touchdowns by a quarterback (20) ... Among the top 10 in program history in 10 additional career categories: completion percentage (2nd - 61.7), completions (3rd - 560), pass attempts (4th - 908), passing yards (4th - 6,472), total offense plays (4th - 1,267), yards of total offense (4th - 7,711), touchdown passes (5th - 40), touchdowns responsible for (5th - 60), pass efficiency rating (6th - 131.46) and most yards of total offense per play (6th - 6.1) ... One of six quarterbacks in team history to rush for at least 1,000 yards ... Dungey and Donovan McNabb are the only quarterbacks in program history with 6,000+ passing yards and 1,000+ rushing yards. GOSU

Amen, most of ED'S running stems from the pocket breaking down. With a better oline we will see him complete his progressions more often.

 

[Ish88888]

I completely forgot about Pierce. I dont doubt he’s capable of being a 2nd to 5th rounder. He’s a game changer we just need to exploit him

I like pierce, dont love him, just have to see more. We have just forgotten what a legit tight end looks like around here. Pierce doesnt have the size the pros are looking for. At 6'3, 235ish he is probably too small.

 

[reedny]

RPO qbs do NOT = running dual threat qb. RPO is all over college football and was responsible for not only getting Baker drafted, but going top 5 as in #1. Being an RPO guy in college doesnt mean you have to be one in the pros.

The knock on josh allen was his 56% completion %. The explanation was jom playing in a pro style offense that slung it deep all day. The RPO system is what makes for completion %'s > 70%.

Nobody said that. I said being a mobile QB makes the RPO especially potent ... that much seems obvious.

 

[Ish88888]

No. That’s not it at all.

An RPO NFL QB is Carson Wentz and Nick Foles and the system that just won the Super Bowl. It’s not a running QB running or passing.

Do a quick deep dive off of a google search. It’s a pretty specific definition. Farve said he used to run a few of them before they were called RPO plays.

Absolutely , The premise is with an Oline blocking for run schematically, the qb has some key reads giving him the option to leave the ball with the rb or pull it out and go into a progression of routes. The qb running, like any other system , is the last option in many cases.

 

[Alsacs]

When you say RPO watch the Philadelphia Eagles offense.
That is the textbook RPO depending on the defense formation and personnel.

 

[TheCusian]

Nobody said that. I said being a mobile QB makes the RPO especially potent ... that much seems obvious.

You could just say you were mistaken

My original point was that RPO offenses used to be a ding against a QB. It’s not the case anymore. It may not get Dungey drafted - but it’s not hurting his stock either.

 

[reedny]

You could just say you were mistaken

My original point was that RPO offenses used to be a ding against a QB. It’s not the case anymore. It may not get Dungey drafted - but it’s not hurting his stock either.

? Not sure if this is T/C, but I don't think I've said anything inaccurate about RPO. I posted (and quoted) a link. And I'm not making predictions about Dungey ... except that trying to run as a QB in the NFL is even more dangerous than college - where he's been hurt repeatedly. There's nothing to argue here.

 

[TheCusian]

? Not sure if this is T/C, but I don't think I've said anything inaccurate about RPO. I post (and quoted) a link. And I'm not making predictions about Dungey ... except that trying to run as a QB in the NFL is even more dangerous than college - where he's been hurt repeatedly. There's nothing to argue here.

I didn’t bring up Dungey running the ball. I brought up RPO.