Damn you ennis!

[jordoo]

my thoughts last night went thus. if i had to choose between ennis or grant i take jerami.
hypothetically had ennis returned then joseph is glued to the bench.no development. not good.
hypothetically had grant returned then we see a frontline combo of grant,rax and cmc. nice.

Its a tough question. That front line while formidable (and Grant is a huge defensive upgrade) has no small forward. That said like Ennis how much would Grant have improved. I think you'd see Joseph as the backup PG if Ennis was here but in a game like last night he's only getting 5min so long term much less development for him this year but likewise if Grant is back much less development for Roberson, Johnson and MikeG. It's kind of one with no wrong answer but I'd go the other way with Ennis because the backcourt has been a bigger weakness to this point.

 

[CorduroyG]

Ennis would be 1st team all American if he returned.

And I only watched the Dayton game once , and I was quite inebriated at the time, but I recall ennis being the only one doing anything in the 2nd half and the only reason we even had a chance to win the game at the end.

 

[Beast]

my thoughts last night went thus. if i had to choose between ennis or grant i take jerami.
hypothetically had ennis returned then joseph is glued to the bench.no development. not good.
hypothetically had grant returned then we see a frontline combo of grant,rax and cmc. nice.

When I first considered this question, I would have instinctively said Ennis. But when you put it this way, it makes a lot of sense. A front court of Grant, Rak and CMac would be tough to defend, and would give us some serious length in the zone. It would also allow G to play at the top of the zone, where he really excels, IMO. Someone stated in another thread that our defense at the top of the zone is awful, and I think a lot of that has to do with G not playing there as much as he did last year. I think G is the best pure defender at the top of the zone since Andy Rautins.

 

[Eric15]

Let them go out of High School, and if they choose to go to college stay a minimum 3 years.

Make this happen.

You can't make people stay somewhere and work for free when they don't want to. They fought an entire Civil War over this.

 

[CaptainJ]

You can't make people stay somewhere and work for free when they don't want to. They fought an entire Civil War over this.

Dont they do this for a shorter term?

 

[tbonezone]

mike(g) don't belong at the 3. grant back would push him to the backcourt. that gives us joseph, (g) , cooney (one of the all-time best 3 point strokers i've heard),and patterson in the backcourt with bj,obo,and robo backing up the front line. i'd take that.

 

[NKR1978]

I think gagged might be a little too strong here, no? He basically had to put up a running 30 footer on the last play of the game. The possession or two before after we forced the turnover I remember him putting up a jumper and not getting to the rim, which I didn't like, but he got a shot up. Did I block out another possession?

Another thing I'll throw out there is that Rak had 6 turnovers last night. Don't get me wrong, he was pretty unstoppable on the block when he could get a shot up, but if they had Ennis back, they probably wouldn't need to be forcing the ball so much to Rak in the post. There was one play where Rak rolled and caught the ball like 16-18 feet from the bucket and tried to get all the way to the rim; that play needs
to be burned.

Ennis did some awesome things here, but he was horrible at the end of that game. He got shots off and that's much better than what we saw last night, but I imagine that Joseph after 33 games will be better than Joseph after 7.

 

[Eric15]

Dont they do this for a shorter term?

Not necessarily - players have the option to use that one year rule to play overseas and make money, if they choose.

But the idea that if a guy goes to college he has to stay there for three years as if it's military service or something, I just find extremely creepy.

 

[CaptainJ]

Not necessarily - players have the option to use that one year rule to play overseas and make money, if they choose.

But the idea that if a guy goes to college he has to stay there for three years as if it's military service or something, I just find extremely creepy.

A lot of these ideas simply boil down to a matter of tradition, in my opinion. I'd love to see them stay all 4 years, but at the same time I believe in free will and free association.

 

[Knicks411]

Not necessarily - players have the option to use that one year rule to play overseas and make money, if they choose.

But the idea that if a guy goes to college he has to stay there for three years as if it's military service or something, I just find extremely creepy.

It's basically the MLB rule, for whatever it's worth.

That being said, it's difficult to compare the two sports, since in basketball players are expected to go right from college to being on NBA rosters, as opposed to baseball where there is a vast minor league system.

 

[tbonezone]

"I believe in free will and free association."

what about free (50k per) education?

 

[Eric15]

It's basically the MLB rule, for whatever it's worth.

I honestly don't know anything about baseball. If a guy goes to college to play baseball, he can leave at any time he wants, right, to go play minor league ball somewhere?

 

[Knicks411]

I honestly don't know anything about baseball. If a guy goes to college to play baseball, he can leave at any time he wants, right, to go play minor league ball somewhere?

Nope. There are some loopholes with guys who go to junior colleges, (i think some JUCO guys can ge draft eligible as soph) but for major college players, you are draft eligible after your senior year in high school, and then not again till after your junior year and senior year in college.

 

[Eric15]

Nope. There are some loopholes with guys who go to junior colleges, (i think some JUCO guys can ge draft eligible as soph) but for major college players, you are draft eligible after your senior year in high school, and then not again till after your junior year and senior year in college.

Just curious - what if a player simply couldn't cut it academically and flunked out, and thus never made it to his junior or senior year of college?

 

[CorduroyG]

Nope. There are some loopholes with guys who go to junior colleges, (i think some JUCO guys can ge draft eligible as soph) but for major college players, you are draft eligible after your senior year in high school, and then not again till after your junior year and senior year in college.

Yup. Get drafted out of high school or go to college at least 3 years.

 

[Knicks411]

Just curious - what if a player simply couldn't cut it academically and flunked out, and thus never made it to his junior or senior year of college?

You may be going deeper than I can answer confidently, but I would say you have 2 options

1) JUCO, and if you really really can't cut it academically
2) there are independent leagues he could play in; not 100% sure when he would become draft eligible though.

I imagine this very rarely happens though.

 

[Knicks411]

From wiki

Eligibility[edit]
To be drafted a player must fit the following criteria:

• Be a resident of the United States, Canada, or a U.S. territory such as Puerto Rico. Players from other countries are not subject to the draft, and can be signed by any team (unless they are current members of college teams in the aforementioned countries).
• Have never signed a major or minor league contract.
• High school players are eligible only after graduation, and if they have not attended college.
• Players at four-year colleges are eligible after completing their junior years, or after their 21st birthdays.
• Junior and community college players are eligible to be drafted at any time.

So I'd say they would probably find a JUCO or community college that would take them.

 

[jordoo]

Not necessarily - players have the option to use that one year rule to play overseas and make money, if they choose.

But the idea that if a guy goes to college he has to stay there for three years as if it's military service or something, I just find extremely creepy.

Baseball does it like this and the player still has choice he's just locked out of the draft for 3 years if he opts out of the draft initially to go to college. I'm not sure there is any correct way to do things. It does bother me that they are making millions for TV, NCAA and colleges without proper compensation when they are forced to wait at least one season.

 

[dyedorange]

my thoughts last night went thus. if i had to choose between ennis or grant i take jerami.
hypothetically had ennis returned then joseph is glued to the bench.no development. not good.
hypothetically had grant returned then we see a frontline combo of grant,rax and cmc. nice.

I think this year our most glaring weakness is at point, so having Ennis back would be most useful. The front court is already a major strength with Xmas and CMac, so adding Grant to that -- although it would be a ton of fun to watch -- seems less useful. It'd be sort of like spending money to expand your garage when your roof is leaking. Not exactly addressing the most pressing issue.

Another advantage of having Ennis is that he was a 35% 3pt shooter. Considering our deficiencies in that department this year, it'd be a big advantage to have another guy on the floor who could provide that deep threat. This year's team, with Kaleb, still has the potential to have a pretty nicely balanced inside/outside offense, but with Ennis in there this year it could've been amazing.

 

[CuseHulk]

You can't make people stay somewhere and work for free when they don't want to. They fought an entire Civil War over this.

Then take your chances out of High school. If not 3 years minimum and worst case you don't make it to or in the NBA (you are closer to you degree, or maybe have your degree)

 

[tbonezone]

perhaps. but in my mind the drop off in talent between ennis and joseph isn't as steep as say the gulf between grant and roberson (or gbinje). plus joseph seems willing to push tempo. something ennis never did. imagine grant on the fast break. dunktacular.

 

[Eric15]

Then take your chances out of High school. If not 3 years minimum and worst case you don't make it to or in the NBA (you are closer to you degree, or maybe have your degree)

But isn't it condescending to talk about guys getting their degree, when your primary concern is the quality of a sport that you watch for entertainment purposes?

Take Donte Greene, for instance. His mother died during his freshman year at SU, and one of his primary reasons for leaving after his freshman year was to provide financially of his siblings who lived in poverty. Is it appropriate for him to have to stay two more years at SU to entertain people when he has a marketable professional skill that he can earn money on?

 

[jordoo]

But isn't it condescending to talk about guys getting their degree, when your primary concern is the quality of a sport that you watch for entertainment purposes?

Take Donte Greene, for instance. His mother died during his freshman year at SU, and one of his primary reasons for leaving after his freshman year was to provide financially of his siblings who lived in poverty. Is it appropriate for him to have to stay two more years at SU to entertain people when he has a marketable professional skill that he can earn money on?

Its really more an issue with the pro leagues than anything. The owners and players association agree to terms which set the rules not the schools. The players never have any obligation to go to school or stay in school there are simply limitations on when they can apply and work for in this case the NBA which does have a right to set their own rules so long as they do not discriminate for sex, race, sexual orientation ect. This brings up the question of age discrimination and then child labor ect. All of these guys can sign with foreign teams and get paid whenever they want.

 

[CaptainJ]

All of these guys can sign with foreign teams and get paid whenever they want.

I see what you're saying, but that would kind of be like being banished to only the "off topic" portion of the board for a year. Part of playing is getting exposure to various groups, including the American public and the press.

 

[jordoo]

I see what you're saying, but that would kind of be like being banished to only the "off topic" portion of the board for a year. Part of playing is getting exposure to various groups, including the American public and the press.

I'm not saying its fair just that its a pro league issue not a college one. The colleges have no real say in what the pro leagues/their players associations and the owners agree to during collective bargaining. Yes the colleges have a stake/interest and can try to influence/lobby but in the end they have no real power. Perhaps legally you could make the case that the NCAA and the Colleges are exploiting the players for their own financial gains.