David Rubin critical of stadium building as a form economic development

[cuseinchina]

making people pay for it that don't want to pay for it doesn't change the underlying risk of the project

but even if i used the risk free rate (to be clear, this is stupid because this project isn't risk free), you still need to come up with 24 million a year of net benefits

Well you could get to that number if the new outside management held 20 new non SU events per year that would fill the place to 70% capacity if each attendee spent an average of $40 downtown when they came to a game - presumably you'd get a mix of people spending $100-$200 and people spending $0-$20.

If 20 events is a reach you also have to account for: higher price food/dining options in the downtown area versus near campus, difficult to calculate but the number of people who come back to downtown because they came in for a cuse game and had the thought three weeks later to go to dinner in armory square instead of at the chain restaurant in their local strip mall, potential for increased attendance at events given easier parking and colocation with other amenities/things to do, among other factors.

Still maybe it doesn't work I don't know - but it doesn't sound as outlandish when you start to break things down on a per person per visit basis.

 

[Millhouse]

Well you could get to that number if the new outside management held 20 new non SU events per year that would fill the place to 70% capacity if each attendee spent an average of $40 downtown when they came to a game - presumably you'd get a mix of people spending $100-$200 and people spending $0-$20.

If 20 events is a reach you also have to account for: higher price food/dining options in the downtown area versus near campus, difficult to calculate but the number of people who come back to downtown because they came in for a cuse game and had the thought three weeks later to go to dinner in armory square instead of at the chain restaurant in their local strip mall, potential for increased attendance at events given easier parking and colocation with other amenities/things to do, among other factors.

Still maybe it doesn't work I don't know - but it doesn't sound as outlandish when you start to break things down on a per person per visit basis.

your example assumes that it costs nothing to put on those events. i said net benefits for a reason.

so yes, if you assume this project is risk free, and you assume that it costs nothing to host events, and you assume those people average spending $40 in the area, and you assume that expenditure doesn't reduce their spending elswhere in town, then yes this project could break even. since you're not the best reader i'll break my own rule about letting people in on sarcasm

even with all those ridiculous assumptions (risk free rate, 100% margins, no substitution), I'm still not buying that you're getting that much

and even with those stupid assumptions , there's no benefit for anyone outside syracuse to pay in to this stupidity

some things deserve to get dismissed out of hand

 

[Millhouse]

At this point, I'd just like to hear one of the posters who ragged on Miner mercilessly for weeks admit that maybe she was right in demanding more info on the project before plowing ahead. If visionary means delusional, then give me stubborn, shortsighted b#tches (not my words but others posting on here) every day.

logic and principles goes out the window when you're the special interest.

 

[cuseinchina]

your example assumes that it costs nothing to put on those events. i said net benefits for a reason.

so yes, if you assume this project is risk free, and you assume that it costs nothing to host events, and you assume those people average spending $40 in the area, and you assume that expenditure doesn't reduce their spending elswhere in town, then yes this project could break even. since you're not the best reader i'll break my own rule about letting people in on sarcasm

even with all those ridiculous assumptions (risk free rate, 100% margins, no substitution), I'm still not buying that you're getting that much

and even with those stupid assumptions , there's no benefit for anyone outside syracuse to pay in to this stupidity

so why did they then supposedly have private investors lined up ready to go?

as far as spending moving from the strip mall in Camillus (or wherever) to downtown Syracuse - the economic benefits of a vibrant urban core far outweigh the loss of business at the Ruby Tuesdays in the suburbs. When you don't have growth you can at least move money to the places it can be best put to use.

You should go move to that libertarian floating island they are trying to get going just off of California on international waters for tech start-ups. Don't call the coast guard when 70% of the population have killed eachother off, your currency is worthless and your ship is sinking.

 

[Millhouse]

so why did they then supposedly have private investors lined up ready to go?

as far as spending moving from the strip mall in Camillus (or wherever) to downtown Syracuse - the economic benefits of a vibrant urban core far outweigh the loss of business at the Ruby Tuesdays in the suburbs. When you don't have growth you can at least move money to the places it can be best put to use.

You should go move to that libertarian floating island they are trying to get going just off of California on international waters for tech start-ups. Don't call the coast guard when 70% of the population have killed eachother off, your currency is worthless and your ship is sinking.

will you please think.

they had private investors ready to go because 20% < 100%. ( i suspect there were other promises too)

aye yi yi yi yi

you're once again avoiding numbers to go back to stupid buzzwords.

you really shouldn't accuse me of dismissing this without much thought, considering how sloppy your thinking is

 

[cuseinchina]

will you please think.

they had private investors ready to go because 20% < 100%. ( i suspect there were other promises too)

aye yi yi yi yi

you're once again avoiding numbers to go back to stupid buzzwords.

you really shouldn't accuse me of dismissing this without much thought, considering how sloppy your thinking is

private investors are not going to get involved if they think they can't get a decent return on invested capital. I don't know what their assumptions were - but they certainly expect to do better than the return on treasuries. 20% of $500M is still a significant investment and one that would not be undertaken if it didn't meet or exceed whatever their IRR hurdle rate is for these projects. I love you how you think you are so much smarter than everyone. All I'm saying is - lets consider the numbers, look at the assumptions and see if this makes sense or not - you are just assuming that the numbers don't work and rejecting clear examples of how they could without expressing openness to consider the detail were it to become available. .

For the 20th time I have no idea if the economics work but to conclude that a bunch of smart development people who were able to pull in private investors are not as able as you to calculate project returns seems less than humble. But my main issue with you has been and continues to be your disregard of public private partnership in general as being anti-capitalist when the opposite is clearly true. I've wasted enough time on this dead horse, enjoy your complaint sessions while the rest of the world tries to solve problems and get things done.

 

[Millhouse]

private investors are not going to get involved if they think they can't get a decent return on invested capital. I don't know what their assumptions were - but they certainly expect to do better than the return on treasuries. 20% of $500M is still a significant investment and one that would not be undertaken if it didn't meet or exceed whatever their IRR hurdle rate is for these projects. I love you how you think you are so much smarter than everyone. All I'm saying is - lets consider the numbers, look at the assumptions and see if this makes sense or not - you are just assuming that the numbers don't work and rejecting clear examples of how they could without expressing openness to consider the detail were it to become available. .

For the 20th time I have no idea if the economics work but to conclude that a bunch of smart development people who were able to pull in private investors are not as able as you to calculate project returns seems less than humble. But my main issue with you has been and continues to be your disregard of public private partnership in general as being anti-capitalist when the opposite is clearly true. I've wasted enough time on this dead horse, enjoy your complaint sessions while the rest of the world tries to solve problems and get things done.

i don't think i'm smarter than everyone. i just think i'm smarter than you. i think the ham sandwich i just ate is too.

 

[cuseinchina]

i don't think i'm smarter than everyone. i just think i'm smarter than you. i think the ham sandwich i just ate is too.

classy guy

 

[Full_Rebar]

Interesting update here- http://www.syracuse.com/news/index....sts_criticism_of_pr.html#incart_river_default

Seems a bit like Joanie's throwing Gross and Cantor under the bus here-did SU go to Joanie without bringing Miner into the loop? How was Miner kept from multiple meetings from June-January?

 

[KellySyracuse]

I loved Mahoney's response, Rubin sits behind the office walls and flings mud. Reading his column about his visit to Destiny makes that very clear. Glad to see she called him out on it.

 

[GoSU96]

Interesting update here- http://www.syracuse.com/news/index....sts_criticism_of_pr.html#incart_river_default

Seems a bit like Joanie's throwing Gross and Cantor under the bus here-did SU go to Joanie without bringing Miner into the loop? How was Miner kept from multiple meetings from June-January?

Good for her.

Rubin is an old crank.

 

[cuseinchina]

Rubin came off looking like an intellectually lazy turd flinger. No research, no details, just a politically motivated stunt piece. If I'm a parent reading that, I am telling my would be journalist kid to go to northwestern.

 

[xc84]

Interesting update here- http://www.syracuse.com/news/index....sts_criticism_of_pr.html#incart_river_default

Seems a bit like Joanie's throwing Gross and Cantor under the bus here-did SU go to Joanie without bringing Miner into the loop? How was Miner kept from multiple meetings from June-January?

I read it and don't see how that is throwing Gross and Cantor under the bus at all. She was simply correcting Rubin's statement.

 

[xc84]

Rubin came off looking like an intellectually lazy turd flinger. No research, no details, just a politically motivated stunt piece. If I'm a parent reading that, I am telling my would be journalist kid to go to northwestern.

I agree...and then he blames his ignorance on her.

 

[Full_Rebar]

I read it and don't see how that is throwing Gross and Cantor under the bus at all. She was simply correcting Rubin's statement.

Basing it on Joanie's comment that the stadium wasn't her idea, or Cuomo's for that matter, that she was brought in by SU. To me that's her saying "ask SU why Miner wasn't involved at the beginning". Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but it sure seems like Joanie is trying to step away from the controversy over Miner's being left in the dark (if indeed she was).

Rubin is a pompous dude for sure, but he isn't completely wrong with some of his criticism either- Buffalo and Albany got money for real long-term economic development projects and Syracuse was looking to build a stadium for SU and an amphitheater. I feel as though that is a legitimate question.

 

[Cheriehoop]

Basing it on Joanie's comment that the stadium wasn't her idea, or Cuomo's for that matter, that she was brought in by SU. To me that's her saying "ask SU why Miner wasn't involved at the beginning". Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but it sure seems like Joanie is trying to step away from the controversy over Miner's being left in the dark (if indeed she was).

Rubin is a pompous dude for sure, but he isn't completely wrong with some of his criticism either- Buffalo and Albany got money for real long-term economic development projects and Syracuse was looking to build a stadium for SU and an amphitheater. I feel as though that is a legitimate question.

I think it was more a shot from Mahoney to Rubin, an SU prof, leading the charge against a project that his own employer is promoting. I think she's trying to tell him to take his complaints in-house with his own employer instead of against the public officials (her & Cuomo) who they contacted for assistance. Wonder if she's upset getting in the cross hairs of what she thinks is SU infighting over priorities.

 

[Full_Rebar]

Mahoney should be upset about the deal falling apart at the last minute and losing the opportunity of some major state funding. She should also be disappointed in missing out on a great opportunity to help the area because the County, and City, didn't come up with an alternative proposal to the State beyond the amphitheater (which I think is a good idea, just less than what the area could have landed).

I don't look at Rubin as an SU employee in this case. He might teach classes still (?), but that's not going to give him much clout since he stepped down as Dean. There is enough infighting at SU over the $ spent on the community initiatives (like the 200k to the Co-op that closed after two months) at the expense of the academic quality of the institution.

He's attacking her as an opinion columnist, and quite frankly, Syracuse needs more people voicing opinions in matters like this. No matter what side you fall on, I think we can all agree that this area dropped the ball in terms of landing an enormous gift from Cuomo. Hopefully the new Chancellor continues to do what I hear has been a great job of working with the SU campus and the community.

 

[Millhouse]

Mahoney should be upset about the deal falling apart at the last minute and losing the opportunity of some major state funding. She should also be disappointed in missing out on a great opportunity to help the area because the County, and City, didn't come up with an alternative proposal to the State beyond the amphitheater (which I think is a good idea, just less than what the area could have landed). I don't look at Rubin as an SU employee in this case. He might teach classes still (?), but that's not going to give him much clout since he stepped down as Dean. There is enough infighting at SU over the $ spent on the community initiatives (like the 200k to the Co-op that closed after two months) at the expense of the academic quality of the institution. He's attacking her as an opinion columnist, and quite frankly, Syracuse needs more people voicing opinions in matters like this. No matter what side you fall on, I think we can all agree that this area dropped the ball in terms of landing an enormous gift from Cuomo. Hopefully the new Chancellor continues to do what I hear has been a great job of working with the SU campus and the community.

Im being nitpicky but it's not a gift when I make you give someone else money

 

[xc84]

Basing it on Joanie's comment that the stadium wasn't her idea, or Cuomo's for that matter, that she was brought in by SU. To me that's her saying "ask SU why Miner wasn't involved at the beginning". Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but it sure seems like Joanie is trying to step away from the controversy over Miner's being left in the dark (if indeed she was).

Rubin is a pompous dude for sure, but he isn't completely wrong with some of his criticism either- Buffalo and Albany got money for real long-term economic development projects and Syracuse was looking to build a stadium for SU and an amphitheater. I feel as though that is a legitimate question.

Buffalo is getting $130M for stadium renovations and now they are talking about replacing the stadium with a new one with state money.

 

[Millhouse]

Buffalo is getting $130M for stadium renovations and now they are talking about replacing the stadium with a new one with state money.

this is also an insane waste of money

one difference is that the bills are less tethered to Buffalo than SU is to Syracuse. the blackmail threat is stronger there. but i hate this too. nfl owners can afford their own own buildings

 

[Millhouse]

I think it was more a shot from Mahoney to Rubin, an SU prof, leading the charge against a project that his own employer is promoting. I think she's trying to tell him to take his complaints in-house with his own employer instead of against the public officials (her & Cuomo) who they contacted for assistance. Wonder if she's upset getting in the cross hairs of what she thinks is SU infighting over priorities.

mahoneys "hey don't look at me this is SU's idea" kind of undercuts the argument that this is a much bigger thing than just a handout to SU.

 

[cuseinchina]

this is also an insane waste of money

one difference is that the bills are less tethered to Buffalo than SU is to Syracuse. the blackmail threat is stronger there. but i hate this too. nfl owners can afford their own own buildings

The time to take a stand against wasteful spending is when funds are being allocated to various pools not when it's at the point of commuting to distribution when the alternative is to let the money go somewhere else. That's like these southern states refusing free Medicaid expansion funding because they don't like Obamacare. They harm their neediest citizens, put their state at a competitive disadvantage for attracting labor, and let the funds go someplace else all out of spite. Every good republican in congress fights for lower spending but when the pork is already served you better take your share or the other guy is getting fat and happy at your expense. Why let the stadium money go to buffalo out of spite. They already took your money so take what you can get and fight the next fight against wasteful spending a little earlier in the process

 

[Millhouse]

The time to take a stand against wasteful spending is when funds are being allocated to various pools not when it's at the point of commuting to distribution when the alternative is to let the money go somewhere else. That's like these southern states refusing free Medicaid expansion funding because they don't like Obamacare. They harm their neediest citizens, put their state at a competitive disadvantage for attracting labor, and let the funds go someplace else all out of spite. Every good republican in congress fights for lower spending but when the pork is already served you better take your share or the other guy is getting fat and happy at your expense. Why let the stadium money go to buffalo out of spite. They already took your money so take what you can get and fight the next fight against wasteful spending a little earlier in the process

the time to fight it is all the time. trust me that i hated the stimulus back then

 

[Full_Rebar]

Buffalo is getting $130M for stadium renovations and now they are talking about replacing the stadium with a new one with state money.

Buffalo is also getting $680 million that isn't related to stadiums for either the Bills, Sabres or UB.

 

[cuseinchina]

the time to fight it is all the time. trust me that i hated the stimulus back then

Yeah the fact that it worked and the 'bailed-out' companies, that w ere bailed out because we legislated our financial system into a prvetnable crisis, paid back the money shouldn't get in the way of a good narrative on waste.

If the money is already spent, may as well get what you can...to do anything else is irrational. I'd rather see stadium funding in Syracuse than in Buffalo, wouldn't you?