David Rubin critical of stadium building as a form economic development

[Millhouse]

I think we operate on different planes of existence --- some people you just can't connect with for whatever reason - clearly that is the case in spades here.

Again I have made clear that I think there are probably other better uses of development funds, like we saw in Albany or Buffalo. Rubin was right to point that out.

However a deal was in place to get a stadium built here with real money, private market support etc...they weren't debating investment priorities and decided upon a stadium. SU wanted money, the county went after it, the gov wants something to hang his hat on when he campaigns for higher office so he's on board - and now its going nowhere. there is not some magical pool of private/public combo money waiting around for any project you might dream up. It as ready for a stadium and it's not waiting for people to get their act together. What's difficult to understand about that?

right. stadium or nothing. i understand you better than you understand you

 

[cuseinchina]

right. stadium or nothing. i understand you better than you understand you

I think that Syracuse should fight to get more/better development funding from the state based on what the other 'big' upstate cities are getting. I don't think that you will somehow magically take the money they had planned for this stadium and get to use it for say developing a natural gas pipeline from the shale plays to give potential industrial resurgents access to cheap energy to go along with the cheap real estate and cheap cost of living in Syracuse. That's something I think would be a better investment...but that's not what's on the table. Instead those funds will go shuffling off to buffalo because they have stakeholders willing to make things happen and politically ambitious governors need things to happen quickly.

 

[Millhouse]

I think that Syracuse should fight to get more/better development funding from the state based on what the other 'big' upstate cities are getting. I don't think that you will somehow magically take the money they had planned for this stadium and get to use it for say developing a natural gas pipeline from the shale plays to give potential industrial resurgents access to cheap energy to go along with the cheap real estate and cheap cost of living in Syracuse. That's something I think would be a better investment...but that's not what's on the table. Instead those funds will go shuffling off to buffalo because they have stakeholders willing to make things happen and politically ambitious governors need things to happen quickly.

what are you objecting to? i said your argument is that it's all or nothing. you take exception to me saying that and then go on to repeat that it's all or nothing over and over

 

[OttoMets]

The sidewalk issue really fries me to no end. You own the property you're responsible for maintaining the walk. Since when do people with disabilities trump the good of the rest of the city? And how about the people with disabilities without viable transportation that need to navigate around town? And how about your civic duty of maintaining your property? I agree that the city sucks on this point because they neither maintain the sidewalks they're responsible for or enforce the current codes on the books. But that shouldn't mean that the rest of us should just sit back and point the finger. UGH

The common council is all about inaction. I've got to give Dougherty a hand for at least trying

Not to mention that the penalty is a self-funding proposition - threat of a fine will compel most to comply; violators' fines will help defray cost of enforcement and maybe help city clear more public property; and threat of a fine would drive some people who aren't fit to own property out of that business (property ownership is not, of course, a right or even a an appropriate situation for some people).

Bob didn't control the message well, but good for him for giving it a try. I don't think we've heard the last of this issue from him.

And good for Khalid Bey for giving his vote to the cause. He's come off badly, in my opinion, on this stadium matter, but he was right on the sidewalks penalty.

 

[cuseinchina]

what are you objecting to? i said your argument is that it's all or nothing. you take exception to me saying that and then go on to repeat that it's all or nothing over and over

yup you got it figured out. Planet millhouse, population 1.

 

[oldpinepoint]

you guys don't realize you're contradicting yourselves.

You: If we don't build the stadium they'll spend the money on something else.

Me: OK if they have to spend the money, they can spend it on something else better than a stadium

You: No, no, no you aren't getting it, it has to be spent on the stadium

Me: You just said it would get spent on something else.

You: Derpy derp derp

Problem is the funds will be spent on something, just not here. The argument for whether it's on something better or not is in the eye of the beholder. There are better uses for the $200mm this we can all agree on, the issue is whether if you turn down the $200MM for the stadium will $200MM then be allocated to fixing the water pipes in the city or for bringing in a new industry for the County. The $200mm was just shifted to some other shittty project in NYS that's all.

 

[Orangeyes]

Mahoney and Rubin public tiff over economic development feeds ...

 

[Millhouse]

Problem is the funds will be spent on something, just not here. The argument for whether it's on something better or not is in the eye of the beholder. There are better uses for the $200mm this we can all agree on, the issue is whether if you turn down the $200MM for the stadium will $200MM then be allocated to fixing the water pipes in the city or for bringing in a new industry for the County. The $200mm was just shifted to some other shittty project in NYS that's all.

everyone just asserts this. does anyone have any proof that the state wouldn't be open to spending the money in the county some other way? mahoney after all was very upset by rubin saying that this was pushed on them by cuomo?

 

[oldpinepoint]

everyone just asserts this. does anyone have any proof that the state wouldn't be open to spending the money in the county some other way? mahoney after all was very upset by rubin saying that this was pushed on them by cuomo?

You make a valid point, however I will counter with all the disappointment with NYS Government and the over spending on useless crap

 

[Crusty]

Problem is the funds will be spent on something, just not here. The argument for whether it's on something better or not is in the eye of the beholder. There are better uses for the $200mm this we can all agree on, the issue is whether if you turn down the $200MM for the stadium will $200MM then be allocated to fixing the water pipes in the city or for bringing in a new industry for the County. The $200mm was just shifted to some other shittty project in NYS that's all.

Just how are you going to bring new industry to CNY? They have trying for years and years without result. There are very few government backed projects that will pay for themselves. This appears to be one of them.

 

[CousCuse]

If the University decides on a substantial Dome renovation and home basketball and football games have to be played on the road , maybe for two seasons , then that would be an enormous loss of revenue to the local businesses and tax revenue to the county and city and state. I don't see that in the accounting of the economic impact. The University might make money as can be seen by the revenue from the game at Metlife.

 

[Millhouse]

If the University decides on a substantial Dome renovation and home basketball and football games have to be played on the road , maybe for two seasons , then that would be an enormous loss of revenue to the local businesses and tax revenue to the county and city and state. I don't see that in the accounting of the economic impact. The University might make money as can be seen by the revenue from the game at Metlife.

most economic impact studies don't consider the stadium related revenue might get spent elsewhere in the city/county/state. i think ignoring substitution tilts too far in favor of building vs renovating

i don't know what the right assumption is for how much comes in from outside the city/county/state and how much just gets spent on something else. i just know that the spending that gets simply shifted from different places in the same jurisdiction is a lot higher than the typical economic impact assumption of zero

the government(s) could factor this lost sales tax revenue in the amount that they're willing to give SU for the renovation. the problem is that SU doesn't have enough skin in the game. they might be willing to take a smaller renovation subsidy rather than a larger new stadium subsidy if it meant that SU had to spend less out of their own pocket.

 

[CousCuse]

most economic impact studies don't consider the stadium related revenue might get spent elsewhere in the city/county/state. i think ignoring substitution tilts too far in favor of building vs renovating

i don't know what the right assumption is for how much comes in from outside the city/county/state and how much just gets spent on something else. i just know that the spending that gets simply shifted from different places in the same jurisdiction is a lot higher than the typical economic impact assumption of zero

the government(s) could factor this lost sales tax revenue in the amount that they're willing to give SU for the renovation. the problem is that SU doesn't have enough skin in the game. they might be willing to take a smaller renovation subsidy rather than a larger new stadium subsidy if it meant that SU had to spend less out of their own pocket.

I would gather that to mean you are for renovation , even if that means playing all road games in football and basketball for as long as 2 years?

 

[Millhouse]

I would gather that to mean you are for renovation , even if that means playing all road games in football and basketball for as long as 2 years?

Depends on the numbers. Two years seems pretty pessimistic

 

[Orangeyes]

Joanie Mahoney: Passing up development projects in Syracuse area is 'recipe for a slow death'

 

[CousCuse]

Depends on the numbers. Two years seems pretty pessimistic

I think they only intend on doing this once for the next 50 years , so I don't think a half job is what's envisioned. That would entail virtually complete demolition down to the shell and redoing all electrical , mechanical and plumbing to todays codes. So , I think two years is reasonable , with inspections and legal related work. I'm sure the cost will be in excess of 350 million. Rupp arena retro is 250 and that's much smaller.

 

[Millhouse]

I think they only intend on doing this once for the next 50 years , so I don't think a half job is what's envisioned. That would entail virtually complete demolition down to the shell and redoing all electrical , mechanical and plumbing to todays codes. So , I think two years is reasonable , with inspections and legal related work. I'm sure the cost will be in excess of 350 million. Rupp arena retro is 250 and that's much smaller.

in that case, you'd be better off doing a 200M copy of jackson state's copy of the carrier dome

i'd love for all the different possibilities to be made public.

 

[tep624]

From a macro perspective, if this stadium isn't going to draw people from outside the city that would be spending their money somewhere else doing something else, then you're probably not going to infuse much into the economy. You'll get that some initial surge if local workers are hired who would otherwise be out of work to do the development, but after that it would go back to the status quo.

However, if this stadium offers the opportunity to host A list concerts that seat 30-40k, major sporting events outside of SU sports (i.e. boxing) that can have large draws that the area can't currently support, then you may be on to something.

The key is new revenue generating opportunities that don't cannibalize current revenue generating opportunities. Because then yes, you're basically spending $200M or more to move Joe's Pizza crosstown into a nice shiny new building that is still going to draw the same number of people spending the same dollars that they would have otherwise.

 

[Millhouse]

From a macro perspective, if this stadium isn't going to draw people from outside the city that would be spending their money somewhere else doing something else, then you're probably not going to infuse much into the economy. You'll get that some initial surge if local workers are hired who would otherwise be out of work to do the development, but after that it would go back to the status quo.

However, if this stadium offers the opportunity to host A list concerts that seat 30-40k, major sporting events outside of SU sports (i.e. boxing) that can have large draws that the area can't currently support, then you may be on to something.

The key is new revenue generating opportunities that don't cannibalize current revenue generating opportunities. Because then yes, you're basically spending $200M or more to move Joe's Pizza crosstown into a nice shiny new building that is still going to draw the same number of people spending the same dollars that they would have otherwise.

i think there is already some cannibalization going on just between football and basketball already. how many games can one person go to in year? it's why smaller pro cities have fewer teams than bigger ones, even though the seasons don't overlap (baseball, hockey, football - some overlap but not much) even though the sports are in different seasons, smaller cities can't support as many teams as bigger ones.

i think SU basketball's success and capacity take away some of football's attendance.

the number of events that would be needed to justify a stadium of this size will likely cannibalize the existing local consumption of what is already offered in the dome. that will in turn require that much more tourism to justify the price tag.

a 500 million dollar stadium is going to depend way too much on convention tourism

 

[Crusty]

Joanie Mahoney: Passing up development projects in Syracuse area is 'recipe for a slow death'

The more I read about the County Exec the more I like her.

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

http://www.okladot.state.ok.us/recovery/hs_rail/fra-final-app/prelim/economic-impact.pdf

The type of analysis that should be done.

 

[tep624]

a 500 million dollar stadium is going to depend way too much on convention tourism

Yep. If we're talking that price range I think the only shot to really make it work is like you said, get the convention circuit in there, i.e. a Gaylord type convention center. I went to one of those outside Dallas for a convention - they're pretty impressive. Pretty much a little city under glass. Kind of felt like I was in a snowglobe without the snow lol.

 

[Millhouse]

Yep. If we're talking that price range I think the only shot to really make it work is like you said, get the convention circuit in there, i.e. a Gaylord type convention center. I went to one of those outside Dallas for a convention - they're pretty impressive. Pretty much a little city under glass. Kind of felt like I was in a snowglobe without the snow lol.

i don't think that's a good bet though. convention space up, convention attendance down

 

[CIL]

I see we've moved beyond beating this dead horse to stone cold raping the thing's lifeless corpse.

 

[Moontan]

If done right, a stadium could provide unique opportunities for corporate events. A well designed club section could host meetings, luncheons, etc. which are popular with employees. I've attended meetings (with preliminary appetizers & lunch) at Texas Motor Speedway as well as lunch at The Ballpark in Arlington (TX). The venue help make the events memorable and offer revenue opportunities for the operator & local government.