Dear american football...

[CanadianSU]

Enough with the Madden vs FIFA debate.

Madden has sucked for the last 10 years. FIFA is a great game, that changes it up every year.

NHL 14/15 blows both away though.

 

[Moontan]

I put Soccer's TV viewability right up there with Golf, Marathon's, and Nascar. Yes they all have their fans but are INCREDIBLY boring on TV.

I'm surprised that you left out baseball. You know, that exciting game where two guys play catch, sometimes another tries to hit the ball and he occasionally makes contact... and once in a while that results in the ball actually being put in the field of play.

 

[TheCusian]

I disagree completely, playing and watching are two different things. Lots has been discussed as what is boring and what is not on TV. Well let me tell you, I wrestled for 6 years, 7-12. I was very serious, trained all year, sucked weight like nobody's business, lifted, ran, etc. I've watched all of 4 wrestling matches in the last 20 years because it's not exciting to watch on TV. Neither is soccer.

Did you watch the US play this year? Every game was freaking unbelievable.

It was easily in the NFL Playoff, March Madness level. Not quite regular season SU Football, but hey...

 

[TheCusian]

But those kids ARE adults now. Soccer has been either the biggest, or nearly the biggest, youth participatory sport for decades now. Football has been losing youth participants steadily. Look, a LOT more people run than play any team sport, but no one watches marathons on TV. Not sure why this is so hard for people to grasp.

You simply can't argue that playing makes you less likely to watch or has no impact as an adult.

Soccer is on a slow rise for a lot of factors, most of which are outlined in this thread. Playing soccer is not hurting it's growth.

 

[Millhouse]

You simply can't argue that playing makes you less likely to watch or has no impact as an adult. Soccer is on a slow rise for a lot of factors, most of which are outlined in this thread. Playing soccer is not hurting it's growth.

You make up stuff all the time. You have to start reading more carefully. It's not just this thread either

 

[Scooch]

You simply can't argue that playing makes you less likely to watch or has no impact as an adult. Soccer is on a slow rise for a lot of factors, most of which are outlined in this thread. Playing soccer is not hurting it's growth.

You are very bad at reading.

 

[Trueblue25]

I do really appreciate the sport though.

Love the sports like soccer, football, basketball and baseball where you can come from absolutely nothing and make yourself into a legend.

 

[jekelish]

The game had more viewers than any game in the last NBA Finals or World Series. Not bad for a game that started in the afternoon:

http://www.espnfc.us/united-states/story/1929447/us-soccer-tv-ratings-top-nba-finals-average

 

[CU44SE]

The game had more viewers than any game in the last NBA Finals or World Series. Not bad for a game that started in the afternoon:

http://www.espnfc.us/united-states/story/1929447/us-soccer-tv-ratings-top-nba-finals-average

not to mention all the viewing parties that didn't count towards the total. People weren't gathering to watch the finals, where pretty much everyone was gathered to watch these games.

 

[jekelish]

not to mention all the viewing parties that didn't count towards the total. People weren't gathering to watch the finals, where pretty much everyone was gathered to watch these games.

Yep. Obviously there is a bit of an asterisk, of course, since this was a national (team) EVENT, but still. That many people don't watch a soccer game based solely on patriotism.

 

[TheCusian]

You make up stuff all the time. You have to start reading more carefully. It's not just this thread either

I'll take your opinion into advisement and read more carefully. I do skim sometimes and it has bitten me in the arse.

I will say that this seems to happen with the posters who feel they are infallible and seldom admit they are wrong. They don't admit to the gray areas in their arguments and like to claim it's others who don't "get it."

In this thread alone, I've admitted that you and Scooch have made good points. I conceded where wrong.

Questioning a point or wondering if the point holds up under some scrutiny is the price a poster pays for making bold points. In other words - sometimes it's damn hot in the kitchen and you know the rest.

 

[TheCusian]

The point is that more or less kids playing a sport does not necessarily lead to more or less adults watching a sport on television.

This is the point I'm questioning. I flipped it around to say "kids who grew up playing will have a higher probability of watching as adults than kids who don't" - it's a way of questioning your hypothesis.

I'm aware the two arguments don't match exactly. I can read. I'm interested in how you view this. Are kids who play more or less likely to watch as adults?

 

[jekelish]

This is the point I'm questioning. I flipped it around to say "kids who grew up playing will have a higher probability of watching as adults than kids who don't" - it's a way of questioning your hypothesis.

I'm aware the two arguments don't match exactly. I can read. I'm interested in how you view this. Are kids who play more or less likely to watch as adults?

I can say without hesitation that the fact I played, even though I didn't play past junior high, is absolutely part of why I'm such a big fan of watching the sport. Of course my dad also coached a women's college team and I was a ballboy for the men's and women's teams at the college where he worked, so that didn't hurt my fandom either.

 

[Scooch]

This is the point I'm questioning. I flipped it around to say "kids who grew up playing will have a higher probability of watching as adults than kids who don't" - it's a way of questioning your hypothesis. I'm aware the two arguments don't match exactly. I can read. I'm interested in how you view this. Are kids who play more or less likely to watch as adults?

And I keep saying, there is neither correlation nor causation between participation and TV viewing. This isn't opinion, it's math. Historical participation rates and TV rating trends do not show any predictive pattern.

There is slowly growing interest in watching soccer on TV in the US. It does not tack to youth participation rates.

Football ratings are higher than ever. It does not tack to youth participation rates.

Baseball ratings are mixed locally, flat/down nationally. They do not tack to youth participation rates.

It's certainly not a *bad* thing for soccer than lots of kids play it. But it's simply not predictive of TV audience levels.

 

[IthacaMatt]

Youth participation has always been high, so I agree with you that's not really a correlation. But CONTINUED participation is, as is the availability of a quality product both live and on TV.

You guys are thinking too linear - it has a cultural impact on the parents of those kids. Soccer is no longer a strange, unfamiliar sport. That has something to do with being open to trying it as a spectator sport.

 

[Scooch]

You guys are thinking too linear - it has a cultural impact on the parents of those kids. Soccer is no longer a strange, unfamiliar sport. That has something to do with being open to trying it as a spectator sport.

How old are some of you?

Unfamiliar?

Pele came to play for the Cosmos when I was two... 38 years ago.

I'd venture to say that just about everyone under the age of 60 is in some parts "familiar" with soccer.

 

[TheCusian]

And I keep saying, there is neither correlation nor causation between participation and TV viewing. This isn't opinion, it's math. Historical participation rates and TV rating trends do not show any predictive pattern. There is slowly growing interest in watching soccer on TV in the US. It does not tack to youth participation rates. Football ratings are higher than ever. It does not tack to youth participation rates. Baseball ratings are mixed locally, flat/down nationally. They do not tack to youth participation rates. It's certainly not a *bad* thing for soccer than lots of kids play it. But it's simply not predictive of TV audience levels.

That's really interesting. I would have thought they'd be predictive. That familiarity with the rules of a sport would lead to a smaller barrier of entry into being a fan of the pro version of the sport. Or idolizations of pro players that kids have in middle school or HS would lead to interest in the game as a whole.

Thanks for clarifying.

 

[TheCusian]

How old are some of you? Unfamiliar? Pele came to play for the Cosmos when I was two... 38 years ago. I'd venture to say that just about everyone under the age of 60 is in some parts "familiar" with soccer.

It's the level of familiarity. Growing up, I was aware of what it was and the general rules. I was oblivious to offsides, extra time, names of positions, and offensive/defensive strategy.

To be a fan that gets a lot out of a sport you really have to have a base understanding of what these things are - to appreciate them. You gain that from watching pro - and maybe some if your kid plays middle school or HS. I'd guess that the introduction starts and ends with a 2 year stint in the 5-8 year old range - where strategy and rules are modified or non-existant.

 

[Scooch]

That's really interesting. I would have thought they'd be predictive. That familiarity with the rules of a sport would lead to a smaller barrier of entry into being a fan of the pro version of the sport. Or idolizations of pro players that kids have in middle school or HS would lead to interest in the game as a whole. Thanks for clarifying.

You bet. Think about football... It's ratings are at all time highs as we speak, while fewer kids have been playing for quite some time now .

Kids learn about sports in a myriad of different ways: parents, siblings, SportsCenter, video games, etc.

I mean, my daughter's a gymnast. She LOVES competing. There are millions of girls who have participated in gymnastics over the years. And yet, aside from 4-5 days every 4 years, gymnastics is an afterthought in the sports world.

Like I said, it's not a bad thing that more and more kids play soccer (although I'm fairly certain that soccer participation has fallen a bit in the past couple years). But MLS ratings aren't going to jump because a kid played soccer as a pre-teen. It'll need to be like the NBA in the 80s, they need *major* stars and compelling teams.

 

[IthacaMatt]

How old are some of you?

Unfamiliar?

Pele came to play for the Cosmos when I was two... 38 years ago.

I'd venture to say that just about everyone under the age of 60 is in some parts "familiar" with soccer.

Did you watch the network broadcast of the World Cup this year versus 2010? Did you watch in 1994? Just in the last 4 years, we've gone from major sports announcers who were almost completely ignorant about the sport, to massive public parties all over the country, and a much higher quality broadcast. To think back to the lack of understanding of the basic rules 20 years ago and then compare it to today I think illustrates my point.

Tell me how many people really understood what was considered a foul 20 years ago, and why yellow versus red cards were appropriate. Yes, I watched the Cosmos with Pele, Chinaglia and Beckenbauer. I even watched the World Cup, a small bit, on something like ABC's Wide World of Sports back in the 70s, when I was a fan of Clockwork Oranje and Total Football.

If you don't think there is a far more nuanced understanding of the sport today in the US versus just a few years ago, well, I have to disagree.

 

[omniorange]

I avoided this thread when it started since it's, as someone pointed out already, the same discussion that comes up every 4 years.

But I was bored and it was too early to go sleep that opened it. And I'm actually glad I did. Good discussion. But I have to say Scooch, you deserve a medal for your patience in this thread.

Cheers,
Neil

 

[Scooch]

Did you watch the network broadcast of the World Cup this year versus 2010? Did you watch in 1994? Just in the last 4 years, we've gone from major sports announcers who were almost completely ignorant about the sport, to massive public parties all over the country, and a much higher quality broadcast. To think back to the lack of understanding of the basic rules 20 years ago and then compare it to today I think illustrates my point. Tell me how many people really understood what was considered a foul 20 years ago, and why yellow versus red cards were appropriate. Yes, I watched the Cosmos with Pele, Chinaglia and Beckenbauer. I even watched the World Cup, a small bit, on something like ABC's Wide World of Sports back in the 70s, when I was a fan of Clockwork Oranje and Total Football. If you don't think there is a far more nuanced understanding of the sport today in the US versus just a few years ago, well, I have to disagree.

I've been saying in this thread that soccer is more popular than ever in the US, and that's it's on a nice trajectory. And yes, I am certain that more people know the basics of the fans today than did 20 years ago.

But, that's not going to drive MLS ratings past MLB in the next 10 years, as some have suggested. The World Cup is awesome, I adore it. It's not an entirely accurate indicator of where soccer will "be" in a decade though.

 

[Scooch]

I avoided this thread when it started since it's, as someone pointed out already, the same discussion that comes up every 4 years. But I was bored and it was too early to go sleep that opened it. And I'm actually glad I did. Good discussion. But I have to say Scooch, you deserve a medal for your patience in this thread. Cheers, Neil

Haha. Soccer has kinda consumed my life. This thread is like therapy.

 

[djcon57]

I've been saying in this thread that soccer is more popular than ever in the US, and that's it's on a nice trajectory. And yes, I am certain that more people know the basics of the fans today than did 20 years ago.

But, that's not going to drive MLS ratings past MLB in the next 10 years, as some have suggested. The World Cup is awesome, I adore it. It's not an entirely accurate indicator of where soccer will "be" in a decade though.

Interested in your thoughts on this, Scooch. The numbers come from the poll you linked.

http://thebiglead.com/2014/03/07/ml...l-with-american-kids-according-to-a-new-poll/

 

[IthacaMatt]

I've been saying in this thread that soccer is more popular than ever in the US, and that's it's on a nice trajectory. And yes, I am certain that more people know the basics of the fans today than did 20 years ago.

But, that's not going to drive MLS ratings past MLB in the next 10 years, as some have suggested. The World Cup is awesome, I adore it. It's not an entirely accurate indicator of where soccer will "be" in a decade though.

Really, Scooch, you're being a little know-it-all-y in this thread without posting any numbers to back it up.

Here are current MLB ratings:

http://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/Journal/Issues/2013/09/30/Media/MLB-ratings.aspx

The Yankees are drawing about 200,000 viewers per game, and the Mets, Cubs, White Sox and Phillies - big market teams - are all well below that number.

MLS on NBC last year drew 300,000 viewers per game. MLS on ESPN has been drawing around 200,000 per game, plus another 250,000 on Univision's sports channel. Premier League on ESPN is doing around 1 million for their game of the week.

http://www.sbnation.com/mls/2014/2/12/5402024/mls-tv-ratings-nielsen-sports-report

The World Cup just topped the World Series. Now, the MLS playoffs only did about 500,000 English speaking audience (maybe 1M total), so the baseball playoffs are still much bigger than our domestic league. But baseball is already on the ropes. Baseball started losing its younger fans when they moved the World Series games to night time. They are reaping the impact of that decision now, as their audience continues to skew older.