Death of the Zone.....

[OrangeFoo]

I don't know how anyone could watch that game and think our D is the problem here. When Lousiville made their run over half the points were on fast breaks...

Here are the two big problems with man 2 man D...
- you can't play CJ fair as a PF against legit teams in man 2 man. If we had, that beast Herell would have had an even more monstrous game than he did yesterday
- our guards are so slow that they would never keep up with smith and siva in man to man even if they had two weeks of rest much less the 4 games in 4 nights

Syracuse is the zone... we recruit for the zone and we live and die by the zone. I hope whenever JB hangs it up the next coach adds some variety to our defense but right now we can't really do anything but play zone and our players and our entire strategy on offense and defense is based on the zone playing well. If it's not then we lose... there is no plan B because this year's set of players specifically would be pretty bad at anything but zone.

 

[El Jefe Syr]

In the context of a grueling game-a-day tournament, the zone becomes suspect I think. When you consider a team like Louisville that contests 100-75% of the court on every possession and us who concede 2/3 of the court on every possession, the exhaustion/mental error factor on offense will inevitably set in, especially on day four. And I actually don't mind the zone as much as most. I thought that our guys played hard and with a lot of heart.

That said with the strategies going into the game as well as the adjustments made therein, had we been rested in an isolated middle-of-the-week type game I think that we would've avoided that lapse with ~ 15 mins. left. -But alas we can each "hypothetical" our way to billionaires, right?"

Credit to the 'Ville. They adjusted to the situation, played hard, came back, and 100% deserve the win (the emotional roller coaster actually reminded me of the 2000 Sweet 16 game with MSU). It was a fun final BET.

 

[ForeverOrange]

I hear everyone's we're too tired, and our guards weren't fast enough. I have to say this though, this year I have seen teams that don't normally zone, zone us and do it well and beat us, but yet we are unable to switch our defense from time to time? ijs.

 

[Townie72]

I hear everyone's we're too tired, and our guards weren't fast enough. I have to say this though, this year I have seen teams that don't normally zone, zone us and do it well and beat us, but yet we are unable to switch our defense from time to time? ijs.

Why change? What's the reason you would change? What are you trying to stop with M2M that the zone can't stop ... especially the way we play it?

You don't switch because the guards are tired. The zone conserve energy.

SU plays the zone. We built the team around playing the zone. These players were not recruited and are not suited to playing Man to Man.

As long as JB is here, we are going to play zone exclusively. Get something else to complain about.

 

[ForeverOrange]

Why change? What's the reason you would change? What are you trying to stop with M2M that the zone can't stop ... especially the way we play it?

You don't switch because the guards are tired. The zone conserve energy.

SU plays the zone. We built the team around playing the zone. These players were not recruited and are not suited to playing Man to Man.

As long as JB is here, we are going to play zone exclusively. Get something else to complain about.

Where do you get this from? Most of these players have played man to man before getting here and have done well in it. Yes he recruited them to play zone, but that doesn't mean they can't learn other defenses like most college teams. Some of you just want to attack.

 

[Alsacs]

I like you Newmexicocuse, but your post is WAY off. We were playing our 4th game in 4 days and just melted down to fatigue and James Southerland getting his 4th foul. MCW had 8 assists and 0 turnovers for the first 25 minutes and finished with 9 assists and 4 turnovers. Triche and MCW had 12 turnovers and we melted down to Louisville's press.We went 4 possessions in a row where we didn't even get a shot off. The defense wasn't a problem, Louisville turned the on switch on and we just got killed. Louisville is the number 1 overall seed relax.

 

[Old hank]

If L'ville plays like they did in the second half against Cuse they will have zero players left with a group of Refs willing to blow the whistle. If they get a group like cuse ohio state last year they will be out. However, they played very well with big east refs.

 

[Townie72]

Where do you get this from? Most of these players have played man to man before getting here and have done well in it. Yes he recruited them to play zone, but that doesn't mean they can't learn other defenses like most college teams. Some of you just want to attack.

Everytime SU loses a game someone whines about our playing 100% zone. It's as predictable as sunshine after rain.

And almost everytime we try and go through this education of the person or persons as to why JB plays 100% zone and why its good and why its not going to change.

This team is built to play zone. Its taught to play zone ... a unique one. And its coached to play zone.

There's nothing a man to man defense can do that a m2m can do inherently better. Except tire your team out and keep them out of position on transition opportunities.

The person who recommended zone at the beginning of this thread didn't have a reason for switching other than switching things up. Sounds dumb to me.

 

[cap2nine]

as a 100% defense no matter what goes on on the court.

If this game doesn't prove to dino-coach the need to have a capability to mix up D's then nothing will. A few minutes of man might have restored order, certainly there was nothing to lose.

You're right!! But for the wrong reasons. A little flexibility in our style would go a looong way but going to man would not have helped us break their press or rekindle our offense. I would however like to see us mix it up as a proactive option, to keep other teams and other coaches on their toes. As good as Boeheim's zone has become, he is completely predictable and we only make reactionary adjustments. I would like to see us come out from halftime playing man for the first few possessions. That could have disrupted UL's entire second half game plan. But the true remedy, for that game and our ridiculous tailspin, would have been to go small after JS picked-up his 4th foul. Having a 3rd guard in Cooney out there would have helped us to break the press plus he'd been showing some of his long range ability lately and the Cards couldn't have ignored that.

 

[Townie72]

You're right!! But for the wrong reasons. A little flexibility in our style would go a looong way but going to man would not have helped us break their press or rekindle our offense. I would however like to see us mix it up as a proactive option, to keep other teams and other coaches on their toes. As good as Boeheim's zone has become, he is completely predictable and we only make reactionary adjustments. I would like to see us come out from halftime playing man for the first few possessions. That could have disrupted UL's entire second half game plan. But the true remedy, for that game and our ridiculous tailspin, would have been to go small after JS picked-up his 4th foul. Having a 3rd guard in Cooney out there would have helped us to break the press plus he'd been showing some of his long range ability lately and the Cards couldn't have ignored that.

How would goingto M2M--- a defense they play and that they see 30 times a season at least --- have made the other coaches be on their toes. All they would have to do would be to revert to what they normally do. Only the relatively unfamiliar zone keeps them on their toes.

 

[IthacaMatt]

I don't know how anyone could watch that game and think our D is the problem here. When Lousiville made their run over half the points were on fast breaks...

Here are the two big problems with man 2 man D...
- you can't play CJ fair as a PF against legit teams in man 2 man. If we had, that beast Herell would have had an even more monstrous game than he did yesterday
- our guards are so slow that they would never keep up with smith and siva in man to man even if they had two weeks of rest much less the 4 games in 4 nights

Syracuse is the zone... we recruit for the zone and we live and die by the zone. I hope whenever JB hangs it up the next coach adds some variety to our defense but right now we can't really do anything but play zone and our players and our entire strategy on offense and defense is based on the zone playing well. If it's not then we lose... there is no plan B because this year's set of players specifically would be pretty bad at anything but zone.

Well, there is a plan B - the press. And we have used it, and used it against Louisville.

 

[Townie72]

Well, there is a plan B - the press. And we have used it, and used it against Louisville.

Of course.

But in the second half, after several consecutive days playing in a tourney, against a team with UL's guards, switching to a press might have made things even worse. As hard as that is to imagine.

We lose and the M2M'ers come out like dandelions in a spring lawn.

 

[br801]

Well, there is a plan B - the press. And we have used it, and used it against Louisville.

Absolutely, but asking MCW, Triche and Southy to press against that team when they were all in foul trouble and/or fatigued was probably not going to prove successful.

 

[newmexicuse]

Of course.

But in the second half, after several consecutive days playing in a tourney, against a team with UL's guards, switching to a press might have made things even worse. As hard as that is to imagine.

We lose and the M2M'ers come out like dandelions in a spring lawn.

Our press is a poor plan B - it only works against inferior foes.

Well, everybody here is saying you can't go man becasue our guys had "tired" legs. Well, maybe that goes to the entire rotation thing. Jimmy has had very few second half substitutions in close games all season long other than at the five spot. If you give Jerami & Trevor some 2nd half minutes then the legs should be fresh enough for two to three minutes of man when needed. It comes back to the old syndrome that Jimmy coaches to win games & not championships, which requires paying some dues for player devlopment throughout the season.

And no, as "M2M"er I do not come out when we lose, I say the same things through thick & then.

Jimmy, is, of course, a great coach, but he has weaknesses and he has not managed to overcome those weaknesses over the years, if anything, they get more entrenched as he gets older & more stubborn.

Bottom line, this is not our best team nor is it a FF caliber team, but some of our performances over the last few weeks have been simply embarrassing, there should be no excuses for that.

 

[br801]

Bottom line, this is not our best team nor is it a FF caliber team, but some of our performances over the last few weeks have been simply embarrassing, there should be no excuses for that.

But not nearly as embarrassing as some of the things I've read on this board since we starting losing closely contested games to good to very good teams.

 

[Townie72]

Our press is a poor plan B - it only works against inferior foes.

Well, everybody here is saying you can't go man becasue our guys had "tired" legs. Well, maybe that goes to the entire rotation thing. Jimmy has had very few second half substitutions in close games all season long other than at the five spot. If you give Jerami & Trevor some 2nd half minutes then the legs should be fresh enough for two to three minutes of man when needed. It comes back to the old syndrome that Jimmy coaches to win games & not championships, which requires paying some dues for player devlopment throughout the season.

And no, as "M2M"er I do not come out when we lose, I say the same things through thick & then.

Jimmy, is, of course, a great coach, but he has weaknesses and he has not managed to overcome those weaknesses over the years, if anything, they get more entrenched as he gets older & more stubborn.

Bottom line, this is not our best team nor is it a FF caliber team, but some of our performances over the last few weeks have been simply embarrassing, there should be no excuses for that.

"Jim, is stubborn? they say. He's stubborn I guess because he doesn't listen to guys like you. He thinks you are wrong. He may think that guys like you have no idea what you are talking about and that you are writing stuff out of frustration.

Tired legs certainly don't help in M2M. But the reason for not going to M2M is not because the players were tired. This is a zone team. It was recruited and put together to play the zone. And there is zero reason to go to M2M. You certainly aren't switching to a defense the opponent hasn't seen before. They seen M2M 30 times so far this year.

JB is actually trying to win these games. That's why you didn't see Cooney in the 2nd half much. JB doesn't think he'd contribute, you do. He doesn't have a blind spot. He's not being stubborn. He is trying the best way he know to win every game.

And the way you win championships is to win as many games as you can,

Player Development occurs primarily in practice and at the beginning of the season. Once the Conference starts, player development is mostly over, Its time to win.

That's JB's philosophy. You sound like you would do it differently. I'll go with JB on this one.

This is not a particularly good team for an SU team, I agree. Too many weaknesses. Guards that constantly make bad decisions. No adequate third guard. Inside players that can't catch, shoot and score. Weak inside presence. Very few offensive options in the half court offense.

You recruit a team. And you play with the players that agree to come.

 

[realorange]

I hope there is an understanding across the board that this is not a tavern league zone no matter what Igor would like us to believe. Have you ever listened to Raf's constant starting comment where he describes our defense as a zone with man to man principles.