Defensive Strategy | Syracusefan.com

Defensive Strategy

Cusefan0307

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I hated our strategy in the zone yesterday. It seemed like we were incredibly impatient. All of our guys got sucked in to try and guard the guy in the middle who wanted no part of the 15 footer. Just let him shoot it. Everyone kept turning their back on the perimeter and that’s mostly how we got burnt.

Had to believe JB had to see this and the players didn’t adjust because it was obvious the big fat guy they had in the middle wanted nothing to do with shooting the ball.

Film will not be kind to us. All 3 of the forwards let themselves get screened on baseline out of bounds plays to give Colgate easy in rhythm jump shots. Lots of correctable stuff there.
 
I think the only way this team has a chance to be successful this year is if they ditch the zone and go to man. We don’t have the athletes to cover the space in the zone.

Buddy and Joe have always been poor defenders at the top of the zone. It’s one of the reasons fans hated seeing Kadary transfer.

The wings in the 2-3 are required to cover a lot of space. Swider is probably capable, but defense is not his strength. It’s why he didn’t get as much playing time at Nova. Jimmy is going to be a liability in the zone all year.

I say we scrap the zone this year. Play man and an up tempo “run and shoot” style of game. We’re not going to stop a ton of teams with our defense, so we might as well play to our strengths. At least it would be fun to watch.
 
I think the only way this team has a chance to be successful this year is if they ditch the zone and go to man. We don’t have the athletes to cover the space in the zone.

Buddy and Joe have always been poor defenders at the top of the zone. It’s one of the reasons fans hated seeing Kadary transfer.

The wings in the 2-3 are required to cover a lot of space. Swider is probably capable, but defense is not his strength. It’s why he didn’t get as much playing time at Nova. Jimmy is going to be a liability in the zone all year.

I say we scrap the zone this year. Play man and an up tempo “run and shoot” style of game. We’re not going to stop a ton of teams with our defense, so we might as well play to our strengths. At least it would be fun to watch.
Lol
 
I think the only way this team has a chance to be successful this year is if they ditch the zone and go to man. We don’t have the athletes to cover the space in the zone.

Buddy and Joe have always been poor defenders at the top of the zone. It’s one of the reasons fans hated seeing Kadary transfer.

The wings in the 2-3 are required to cover a lot of space. Swider is probably capable, but defense is not his strength. It’s why he didn’t get as much playing time at Nova. Jimmy is going to be a liability in the zone all year.

I say we scrap the zone this year. Play man and an up tempo “run and shoot” style of game. We’re not going to stop a ton of teams with our defense, so we might as well play to our strengths. At least it would be fun to watch.

The problem with man is Buddy and Joe trying to defend most guards is a recipe for disaster. I'd like some combination of the 2, but we all know its zone or bust. We don't make changes, unfortunately.
 
I think the only way this team has a chance to be successful this year is if they ditch the zone and go to man. We don’t have the athletes to cover the space in the zone.

Buddy and Joe have always been poor defenders at the top of the zone. It’s one of the reasons fans hated seeing Kadary transfer.

The wings in the 2-3 are required to cover a lot of space. Swider is probably capable, but defense is not his strength. It’s why he didn’t get as much playing time at Nova. Jimmy is going to be a liability in the zone all year.

I say we scrap the zone this year. Play man and an up tempo “run and shoot” style of game. We’re not going to stop a ton of teams with our defense, so we might as well play to our strengths. At least it would be fun to watch.
Ugh. Stop. It’s not happening.
 
I think the only way this team has a chance to be successful this year is if they ditch the zone and go to man. We don’t have the athletes to cover the space in the zone.

Buddy and Joe have always been poor defenders at the top of the zone. It’s one of the reasons fans hated seeing Kadary transfer.

The wings in the 2-3 are required to cover a lot of space. Swider is probably capable, but defense is not his strength. It’s why he didn’t get as much playing time at Nova. Jimmy is going to be a liability in the zone all year.

I say we scrap the zone this year. Play man and an up tempo “run and shoot” style of game. We’re not going to stop a ton of teams with our defense, so we might as well play to our strengths. At least it would be fun to watch.
Yeah, that’s never going to happen and we all know. Slow unathletic guys playing zone in preseason games against mid majors aren’t going to play an effective MTM against ACC teams.

We need JB to actually do something about rebounding. Like ripping his younger son when he shows the absolute aversion to it that he showed last night. If Girard can get as many rebounds as he does, theres no reason Buddy can’t. Our zone sets it up perfectly. We have to stop the second chance points.

But if we’re getting radical, let’s go 1-2-2 zone. Every once in awhile.
 
Yeah, that’s never going to happen and we all know. Slow unathletic guys playing zone in preseason games against mid majors aren’t going to play an effective MTM against ACC teams.

We need JB to actually do something about rebounding. Like ripping his younger son when he shows the absolute aversion to it that he showed last night. If Girard can get as many rebounds as he does, theres no reason Buddy can’t. Our zone sets it up perfectly. We have to stop the second chance points.

But if we’re getting radical, let’s go 1-2-2 zone. Every once in awhile.
I full well know JB isn’t going to give up the zone, despite the round holes, square pegs approach. This squad is not built for JB’s patented zone.
 
I full well know JB isn’t going to give up the zone, despite the round holes, square pegs approach. This squad is not built for JB’s patented zone.
I think it goes farther than just this squad. The zone isn’t adapted to be fully successful in the post-Steph era. And no, I’m not saying any kids we will face are on the level of Steph Curry. I just mean kids have been spending far more time practicing threes than anything else. So facing teams with multiple good shooters from deep is getting prevalent and not the exception anymore.
 
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I hated our strategy in the zone yesterday. It seemed like we were incredibly impatient. All of our guys got sucked in to try and guard the guy in the middle who wanted no part of the 15 footer. Just let him shoot it. Everyone kept turning their back on the perimeter and that’s mostly how we got burnt.

Had to believe JB had to see this and the players didn’t adjust because it was obvious the big fat guy they had in the middle wanted nothing to do with shooting the ball.

Film will not be kind to us. All 3 of the forwards let themselves get screened on baseline out of bounds plays to give Colgate easy in rhythm jump shots. Lots of correctable stuff there.
I'm also curious to know what happens if our guards refuse to get sucked over to the FT line.

It happens over and over again. I'm not sure what it accomplishes. I'm legitimately curious what happens if they stay home.

There's no way a coach is going to be ok with a big taking mid-range jumpers play after play on offense.
 
I think it goes farther than just this squad. The zone isn’t adapted to be fully successful in the post-Steph era. And no, I’m not saying any kids we will face is on the level of Steph Curry. I just mean kids have been spending far more time practicing threes than anything else. So facing teams with multiple good shooters from deep is getting prevalent and not the exception anymore.
Agree strongly with this
 
It is also not built for MtM.
That’s why I rather take the run and shoot approach and just try to out score teams. Fire away from three as soon as we get within 25 feet. At least it would be fun to watch.
 
I know it’s hard to take anything good away from that game, but for those that enjoy watching teams grow and mature during the course of a season, this will be an exciting year. The defense was horrible. JB saw what we all saw and despite being old and stubborn, has a pretty good track record of making teams better during the course of a season. He has his work cut out for him.
 
I think it goes farther than just this squad. The zone isn’t adapted to be fully successful in the post-Steph era. And no, I’m not saying any kids we will face is on the level of Steph Curry. I just mean kids have been spending far more time practicing threes than anything else. So facing teams with multiple good shooters from deep is getting prevalent and not the exception anymore.
It’s not just the shooting, passing is a very important ingredient also.
 
The defense was bad yesterday for sure but it wasn't all on the guards. It is kind of funny I was sitting there watching the fiasco unfold thinking that many are going to blame the JG3 when in reality he was the only one who really played hard, showing any signs of actually wanting to win. He played the passing lanes and got a few deflections, a few more times disrupting the flow with near deflections. He is 100 times better than he was last year, you can see the work he put in the off season and the effects of covid finally look like they have disappeared.

Now granted I was so disgusted I would at times get up and walk away to get a few other things done around the house so maybe I missed some bad things other saw, but this game came down to a couple things. Lack of overall defense for sure, and wondering how the team would win if a couple of the players were off at the same time-would the remaining be able to carry us to victory?

The answer to the second part I think is most nights yes they could. We scored 85 points on a night Jimmy and Cole were way off and Symir and Benny couldn't hit the ocean standing in the middle of a 5 ft diameter island. Unfortunately this has been a reoccurring thing with both of them-they both show flashes of what they could be, but will they get there?

The lack of defense comes down to, from what I saw, is lack of extending the defense out past the three point line. We saw this last year and we got torched a few times before adjustments were finally made and it became adequate. The entire team was packed inside and it made it easy for Colgate to simply pass the ball around until SU was so far out of position that they had an easy shot with no hand in their face- often no defender within 5 ft of the shooter. Jimmy was constantly burned by not being able to rotate back quick enough, which I think is why Benny saw extended minutes even though he didn't perform well either. JG3 and Buddy never moved off the three point line, and Colgate had shooter comfortable with shooting from 23-24 feet. This was as much on the coaches as much as the players, although maybe they were playing shorter to try and help cover the known deficiencies of our forwards. Still they both should have known who the shooters were and moved out to cover them but never did. Of course it didn't seem like it would matter, even when Colgate did have two or three sets of hands in their faces it seemed as if all they had to do was throw it in the general direction of the bucket and it would go in.

Buddy has improved tremendously over his tenure, but if he wants to seriously play at the next level he needs to do one thing- learn to rebound. Buddy I hope your reading this and take it to heart, but standing there watching shots and not actively going after rebounds is killing this team. If a rebound happens to bounce your way you may go after it, but otherwise you just watch or cut away for a fast break that never happens. Last night was the first time this year too we saw him try to forcefully take the team on his back and not be very successful. It helps though when the opposing team can really only defend two guys instead of 5, but rebound Buddy-rebound!

Not sure what Jimmy was thinking, coach blamed Edwards I think when it was Jimmy who was more disruptive to him than Colgate. I think Edwards got to where he was having to look not only where the defender was but also where Jimmy was and this was to much for him to handle in this pace of a game. Cole had another game where his offense was anemic and his defense decent, but has to learn not to foul like he does. Love his aggressiveness and desire though, I think he will be okay. Atlantis will for sure tell the tale for this team. How they respond after this loss and handle the teams they will face will show us how the season will play out. SU has a history of in season improvements, often in late February, so if we can show a defensive improvement in Atlantis I think we will be okay, and poised for a deep run in March. If we don't learn, it is going to be a very long season.
 
I'm also curious to know what happens if our guards refuse to get sucked over to the FT line.

It happens over and over again. I'm not sure what it accomplishes. I'm legitimately curious what happens if they stay home.

There's no way a coach is going to be ok with a big taking mid-range jumpers play after play on offense.
yeah I dont see what all the rotating on help does other than create holes in the defense.

all the collapsing has done so far this season is create open shots for opponents.

they are going for steals...and they are getting some...but the tradeoff so far hasnt been worth it.

that said, there are bigs who can knock down 15 footers with ease...that nc state game last year was an example, iirc...and the bufalo loss. etc...the colgate big wasnt a threat but a lot are nowadays. still thats a better poison than WIDE OPEN 3s.
 
yeah I dont see what all the rotating on help does other than create holes in the defense.

all the collapsing has done so far this season is create open shots for opponents.

they are going for steals...and they are getting some...but the tradeoff so far hasnt been worth it.

that said, there are bigs who can knock down 15 footers with ease...that nc state game last year was an example, iirc...and the bufalo loss. etc...the colgate big wasnt a threat but a lot are nowadays. still thats a better poison than WIDE OPEN 3s.
I say, let that big take 25 mid range J's. It's unnatural. Teams don't want to play that way even if that shot is open every time.
 
I say, let that big take 25 mid range J's. It's unnatural. Teams don't want to play that way even if that shot is open every time.
the last couple of seasons there have some bigs at that high post that have had career games shooting those shots...not all the time but pretty frequently...still rather have that than wide open 3s
 
I think it goes farther than just this squad. The zone isn’t adapted to be fully successful in the post-Steph era. And no, I’m not saying any kids we will face are on the level of Steph Curry. I just mean kids have been spending far more time practicing threes than anything else. So facing teams with multiple good shooters from deep is getting prevalent and not the exception anymore.
H/T YouTube: Jxmmy High Roller

visual representation of Currys effect on the game
Screenshot_20211121-140453_YouTube.jpg
 
I hated our strategy in the zone yesterday. It seemed like we were incredibly impatient. All of our guys got sucked in to try and guard the guy in the middle who wanted no part of the 15 footer. Just let him shoot it. Everyone kept turning their back on the perimeter and that’s mostly how we got burnt.

Had to believe JB had to see this and the players didn’t adjust because it was obvious the big fat guy they had in the middle wanted nothing to do with shooting the ball.

Film will not be kind to us. All 3 of the forwards let themselves get screened on baseline out of bounds plays to give Colgate easy in rhythm jump shots. Lots of correctable stuff there.

IMO, attacking the guy at the 15 foot spot has been a fairly normal part of our defensive strategy over the years. We push our guards down, or at times wings in, and create turnovers that way. There is a big reason Syracuse guards over time have consistently outperformed other teams in terms of steals and why Syracuse has typically had positive turnover margin (some years very positive, even in conference) despite playing zone.

That strategy worked because we typically had the length and athleticism to play a very active 2-3 zone and then recover after pushing down

I'm not sure if its JB to adjust or the players
1. I really doubt that JB would tell his guards not to fairly regularly pinch down. It's what we do in our zone.
2. Of course I am sure JB has certain rules when to pinch down, and those rules may be more rigorous this year. So perhaps it is the players that are not following the guidelines of when / when not to pinch down, or are simply not good at it.

I hope it's the latter -- that the players are making mistakes in timing and execution.

Because if we need to go to a more passive zone due to not having the athletes, which then neuters some of the advantages of our traditional zone, it leads to that other question we hate to ask. Should we adjust the D?

On the bright side, in prior years our offence probably needed that boost of extra turnovers because we did not have the shooting or offence we have this year. So it can certainly be argued that we don't need defensive tactics that may kick start the offence by giving them a few easier looks throughout the game.
 
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One thing I do know, the 5 not shooting from the free throw line while being patient and pivoting with pass fakes is going to be the blueprint for any team against us. Usually teams catch and either shoot or pass it right away, yesterday Colgate didn’t do that.
 
IMO, attacking the guy at the 15 foot spot has been a fairly normal part of our defensive strategy over the years. We push our guards down, or at times wings in, and create turnovers that way. There is a big reason Syracuse guards over time have consistently outperformed other teams in terms of steals and why Syracuse has typically had positive turnover margin (some years very positive, even in conference) despite playing zone.

That strategy worked because we typically had the length and athleticism to play a very active 2-3 zone and then recover after pushing down

I'm not sure if its JB to adjust or the players
1. I really doubt that JB would tell his guards not to fairly regularly pinch down. It's what we do in our zone.
2. Of course I am sure JB has certain rules when to pinch down, and those rules may be more rigorous this year. So perhaps it is the players that are not following the guidelines of when / when not to pinch down, or are simply not good at it.

I hope it's the latter -- that the players are making mistakes in timing and execution.

Because if we need to go to a more passive zone due to not having the athletes, which then neuters some of the advantages of our traditional zone, it leads to that other question we hate to ask. Should we adjust the D?

On the bright side, in prior years our offence probably needed that boost of extra turnovers because we did not have the shooting or offence we have this year. So it can certainly be argued that we don't need defensive tactics that may kick start the offence by giving them a few easier looks throughout the game.
yeah, good post. I think "basic vanilla defense" is the recipe...stop pincihing down stop collapsing...stay home, limit open shots...dont give up layups/wide open 3 and get in rebounding position...needs to be the focus...not maximizing steals...cuz they are getting burned not being able to recover after missing a chance for a steal and over collapsing. just make teams make contested shots and dont give up offensive boards...should be enough to get a W most nights with the offense being dangerous. once they get the rotations down better then maybe go for more steals. double teams idk.
 

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