Development in and Around Syracuse Discussion

[shandeezy7]

In a somewhat surprising move, The Post-Standard just endorsed Ben Walsh for Mayor:

Editorial endorsement: Ben Walsh for Syracuse mayor

 

[FrancoPizza]

Next Tuesday will be a big day for the future of the city (not just the Dome). At first I thought JPW might not be so bad since she is a SU law school alum and clashed with Miner, but it sounds like she clashes with everyone and can be quite a pr!ck. Please Ben, come through for us.

 

[Newhouser]

Next Tuesday will be a big day for the future of the city (not just the Dome). At first I thought JPW might not be so bad since she is a SU law school alum and clashed with Miner, but it sounds like she clashes with everyone and can be quite a pr!ck. Please Ben, come through for us.

I am not a resident and have no vote but why is Ben such the clear cut choice? In an area that is being ruined by nepotism and cronyism, I'm not sure a legacy name and an affiliation with a County Exec who is attached to a poor Governor a win for anyone? I'm not sure I see his genius or difference making capability.

 

[IthacaMatt]

I am not a resident and have no vote but why is Ben such the clear cut choice? In an area that is being ruined by nepotism and cronyism, I'm not sure a legacy name and an affiliation with a County Exec who is attached to a poor Governor a win for anyone? I'm not sure I see his genius or difference making capability.

His claim to fame, according to the Post-Standard endorsement, was his lead role in securing a developer to renovate and reopen Hotel Syracuse.

The big challenge, which I don't know that he can do anything about, is the fact that 50% of the properties in Syacuse pay no tax.

How do you grow a tax base when everytime someone wants to build a simple commercial building - a hotel, a store - people want tax breaks to do it?

We have had idiots running the local government for a long time who have had no concept of the long-term implications of how they have been doing business.

 

[690West]

let's also get rid of 690

Easy there...

 

[shandeezy7]

His claim to fame, according to the Post-Standard endorsement, was his lead role in securing a developer to renovate and reopen Hotel Syracuse.

The big challenge, which I don't know that he can do anything about, is the fact that 50% of the properties in Syacuse pay no tax.

How do you grow a tax base when everytime someone wants to build a simple commercial building - a hotel, a store - people want tax breaks to do it?

We have had idiots running the local government for a long time who have had no concept of the long-term implications of how they have been doing business.

I'm not entirely familiar with the 50% of properties that pay no tax, but I would surmise that a very large chunk of that 50% consists of properties owned by non-profits and vacant properties. Also, it's my understanding that a large amount of tax breaks granted to developers in the city are sales tax breaks on equipment purchases, mortgage tax breaks and freezes on property assessments that keep property taxes low for a fixed period relative to the actual value of the improved property. I don't think there are many developments that receive a 100% property tax break. Someone can feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, however.

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

The 481 bypass actually should improve shopping for the Dewitt / Fayetteville corridor, since people south of the City can get there just as easily as they can get to Destiny.

No one just jumps off at Destiny on their way through the city. It's a destination.

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

The impact on the average commute was shown to increase by about 1.4 miles on city streets. Five minutes, maybe.

Not 5 minutes when everyone is using streets ill equipped to handle the traffic.

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

This is a concern. The curve is already tight and there's a residential area directly to the north. It'll have to be designed to accommodate 65 mph traffic.

This is why the DEIS delays are inexcusable - regardless of what option is chosen, these interchange upgrades need to be made now. Barring something unusual, the viaduct is coming down in the next few years, either permanently or for a decade of reconstruction. 481 upgrades need to be underway long before that happens.

Already in the works. Survey crews are out looking at the property the state is going to take.

 

[CuseOnly]

I didn't go to any of the presentations about the project, but did they say anything about what was to happen south of the viaduct. Looking at Google map of the area around the viaduct I don't see a lot of vacant land. Everything has a building or a parking lot for that building on it. Architect drawings almost always make things look better than they end up looking like. Also for those people wanting to go north to south and vice versa are in for a major cluster "'&+;. I'm not just talking about travelers passing through, but people who live close to or in the city. People don't like to be inconvenienced. Remember the uproar that happened when they redid Clinton Square.

I live in Clay, far North of the city, lived in Liverpool and/or Clay my whole life. I am not inconvenienced whatsoever by taking 481 around the city as opposed to taking 81 through it. As a matter of fact, I avoid the viaduct through the city at all costs unless I am actually going into the city.

And funny that when I do go into the city taking 481S to 81S from Clay (Near Great Northern Mall), most of the time to get into the city I get off at the Clinton St. exit and never have to take the viaduct you are so vigorously defending.

Do you even live in or around Syracuse and have any idea what you are talking about??

 

[gocusecaz]

I live in Clay, far North of the city, lived in Liverpool and/or Clay my whole life. I am not inconvenienced whatsoever by taking 481 around the city as opposed to taking 81 through it. As a matter of fact, I avoid the viaduct through the city at all costs unless I am actually going into the city.

And funny that when I do go into the city taking 481S to 81S from Clay (Near Great Northern Mall), most of the time to get into the city I get off at the Clinton St. exit and never have to take the viaduct you are so vigorously defending.

Do you even live in or around Syracuse and have any idea what you are talking about??

I currently live in Cazenovia, but grew up near Brighton Ave in Syracuse. I have also lived in Lakeland, Liverpool and I know it's part of Syracuse, Eastwood. I would rarely use 481 to go north. So I have an idea about getting around Syracuse both ways. When I do go to football games I do use 481 south to get to 81 north to get to the west parking lots. As far as taking down the viaduct, one of the big things promised is acres of new land for development. Those opposed argue about properties lost. If the community grid plan is chosen, some properties will be lost because of new ramps. Neither side is perfect, but people living west and northwest of the city who are traveling south will have their route lengthened.

 

[CuseOnly]

I currently live in Cazenovia, but grew up near Brighton Ave in Syracuse. I have also lived in Lakeland, Liverpool and I know it's part of Syracuse, Eastwood. I would rarely use 481 to go north. So I have an idea about getting around Syracuse both ways. When I do go to football games I do use 481 south to get to 81 north to get to the west parking lots. As far as taking down the viaduct, one of the big things promised is acres of new land for development. Those opposed argue about properties lost. If the community grid plan is chosen, some properties will be lost because of new ramps. Neither side is perfect, but people living west and northwest of the city who are traveling south will have their route lengthened.

Quite honestly, I find all of the talk about traffic in this town a joke.

Go to NYC through the Lincoln Tunnel from 7AM to about 11AM, then talk to me about the extra 3-4 minutes it might take to go through our massive city during our "rush hour".

Or go through Boston at Noon using the Tobin Bridge or Callahan Tunnel.

This entire conversation is a joke.

We don't have traffic here and the community grid would benefit the city. Go to LA where you have to not only plan where you are going out to dinner but leave 2 hours in advance to make it on time.

Breaking it down for you, all of these arguments are pure BS, it will come down to which way accomplishes the task for the cheapest price tag with minimal disruption/interruption. If you don't want to go through the city and deal with street level traffic, go around.

 

[gocusecaz]

Quite honestly, I find all of the talk about traffic in this town a joke.

Go to NYC through the Lincoln Tunnel from 7AM to about 11AM, then talk to me about the extra 3-4 minutes it might take to go through our massive city during our "rush hour".

Or go through Boston at Noon using the Tobin Bridge or Callahan Tunnel.

This entire conversation is a joke.

We don't have traffic here and the community grid would benefit the city. Go to LA where you have to not only plan where you are going out to dinner but leave 2 hours in advance to make it on time.

Breaking it down for you, all of these arguments are pure BS, it will come down to which way accomplishes the task for the cheapest price tag with minimal disruption/interruption. If you don't want to go through the city and deal with street level traffic, go around.

It's true that most people around here have no idea about traffic. I'm still not sure what new streets are going to be added to get traffic through the city. Buildings will have to be taken down to get more east/west streets into and out of downtown. I know you are talking about people just bypassing the viaduct area to get through the city, I still wonder about the people having to get to the emergency room at Upstate or Crouse that are delayed because there is no expressway that will get me there even 2 minutes earlier. Traffic moves through the area relatively problem free now. Will the grid system make it better? I don't know, but is it worth the chance. Studies have been wrong before. The Urban Renewal program of the 60's said it would make the area around downtown better. It was a failure.

 

[Cheriehoop]

It isn't ridiculous or a joke to compare Syracuse to LA, NYC, Boston, DC etc? We should want to emulate one of their worst quality of life issues, traffic, their biggest tradeoff when deciding to live there? We're not addressing an issue because economic growth has resulted in traffic like in those cities, instead the city is hoping that economic growth will occur because of traffic. I do know the city very well throughout my life (and generations before me) despite others who have accused otherwise. East of the city center in the Dewitt, Manlius, Burnet Ave, Thompson Rd, Eastwood areas will be able to use Erie Blvd/690/481 to get around but those west and just northwest, southwest of the city won't have those options and neither will ambulances. 690 which dissects the city into north and south halves will now become the only way to leave the city center which will create it's own new issues. There currently isn't a traffic problem as many have enthusiastically pointed out but we want to create ground level traffic issues creating new traffic patterns to resolve social issues just like the process that created 81 in the first place.

I'd just like honesty in the discussion. There obviously are developers who covet certain parcels of land, create traffic in specific areas - who are they, are they businesses who will create jobs, just relocate jobs or just an attempt to gentrify an area pushing part of the poverty problem elsewhere. Are the plans solid, a possible boon to some or all? Is it the new 'inland port' that is being created in the Jamesville area? Unless they tear down pioneer homes, the buildings near Almond are all relatively new high rises, new medical buildings, Golisano related buildings etc - I doubt they are being targeted. So where is all this land that would be freed up and for what? If the real crux of this push is relocating central city poor people, where are they relocating them to? Wish the real reasons for tearing down route 81 were being discussed and evaluated because it certainly isn't traffic related. Pure aesthetics? I doubt it. There were reasons other than traffic that created route 81 along with winners and losers and it continues. It would just be nice to be able to evaluate transparently. Most changes start with 'follow the money' so should the discussions.

 

[two3zone]

I didn't go to any of the presentations about the project, but did they say anything about what was to happen south of the viaduct. Looking at Google map of the area around the viaduct I don't see a lot of vacant land. Everything has a building or a parking lot for that building on it. Architect drawings almost always make things look better than they end up looking like. Also for those people wanting to go north to south and vice versa are in for a major cluster "'&+;. I'm not just talking about travelers passing through, but people who live close to or in the city. People don't like to be inconvenienced. Remember the uproar that happened when they redid Clinton Square.

What's amazing is that here in Vegas they're doing MAJOR highway construction and a area where there was zero room to do anything. The amazing part is that when a city knows something needs to be done they make plans that's best and gets it done. This thing in Syracuse has been talked about for 3 freaking years, it's become a joke.

 

[shandeezy7]

It isn't ridiculous or a joke to compare Syracuse to LA, NYC, Boston, DC etc? We should want to emulate one of their worst quality of life issues, traffic, their biggest tradeoff when deciding to live there? We're not addressing an issue because economic growth has resulted in traffic like in those cities, instead the city is hoping that economic growth will occur because of traffic. I do know the city very well throughout my life (and generations before me) despite others who have accused otherwise. East of the city center in the Dewitt, Manlius, Burnet Ave, Thompson Rd, Eastwood areas will be able to use Erie Blvd/690/481 to get around but those west and just northwest, southwest of the city won't have those options and neither will ambulances. 690 which dissects the city into north and south halves will now become the only way to leave the city center which will create it's own new issues. There currently isn't a traffic problem as many have enthusiastically pointed out but we want to create ground level traffic issues creating new traffic patterns to resolve social issues just like the process that created 81 in the first place.

I'd just like honesty in the discussion. There obviously are developers who covet certain parcels of land, create traffic in specific areas - who are they, are they businesses who will create jobs, just relocate jobs or just an attempt to gentrify an area pushing part of the poverty problem elsewhere. Are the plans solid, a possible boon to some or all? Is it the new 'inland port' that is being created in the Jamesville area? Unless they tear down pioneer homes, the buildings near Almond are all relatively new high rises, new medical buildings, Golisano related buildings etc - I doubt they are being targeted. So where is all this land that would be freed up and for what? If the real crux of this push is relocating central city poor people, where are they relocating them to? Wish the real reasons for tearing down route 81 were being discussed and evaluated because it certainly isn't traffic related. Pure aesthetics? I doubt it. There were reasons other than traffic that created route 81 along with winners and losers and it continues. It would just be nice to be able to evaluate transparently. Most changes start with 'follow the money' so should the discussions.

No offense, Cherie, but you said a lot in this post without saying much at all. It's totally disingenuous to state that 690 will be "the only way to leave the city center." That is entirely untrue. Likewise, it will have almost no effect on access to the hospitals. To steal a term from Dear Leader, that is fake news being pushed out by interests that have no regard for what happens in the city.

From an Onondaga Citizens League study: "EMS vehicles are strategically positioned throughout their service areas; the interstate is not a factor in “access to scene” (unless the scene is on the interstate). Rural Metro and NAVAC, the county’s two largest services, by and large do not rely on the I-81 viaduct to get to their hospital destinations, according to their directors. With a boulevard in place of the interstate viaduct for local traffic, “emergency vehicles would be provided more travel route options, which can be critical in cases of congestion or during special events on the University Hill,” the University Hill Transportation Study concluded."

Also, from the DOT Scoping Report in 2015: People have expressed concern about the impacts of a boulevard alternative on ambulance access to hospitals. Most ambulances probably do not reach the hospitals via I-81; they come from various directions via city streets and access Upstate as well as St. Joseph’s and Community General Hospitals that are not directly on I-81. This concern seems unfounded. In any case, the boulevards will be fairly fast, and their better connection to the street grid may well reduce ambulance travel times.

The current off-ramp/on-ramp situation on 81 at Adams/Harrison street is a total debacle. The community grid option will offer much more efficient access points to/from 690 and 81. Much different from the current dangerous setup, where 81N traffic attempting to merge onto 690E is competing with on-ramp traffic from street level trying to merge onto 81N or 81S traffic exiting at Adams street at the same point where 690E dumps onto 81S at a hard curve.

If you want to "follow the money," look no further than the major opponents to the community grid option and what their motivations are, and you will have your answer.

 

[Cheriehoop]

What's amazing is that here in Vegas they're doing MAJOR highway construction and a area where there was zero room to do anything. The amazing part is that when a city knows something needs to be done they make plans that's best and gets it done. This thing in Syracuse has been talked about for 3 freaking years, it's become a joke.

It’s not a city highway though, it’s an interstate highway to and from the Canadian border ending in Tennessee which probably complicates the discussion/decisions/impact. Way too many studies. 481 has always been a route to circumvent 81 through the city proper built in the 70’s.

 

[nzm136]

My $0.02...

I don't think that traffic is Syracuse's problem. It needs a reason for people to want to live there to drive economic development.

That's a product of safety, schools, and civic attractions.

The good news is that Syracuse has a rich history, a world class university, a reasonably close proximity to NYC, a central location in NY, and a lot of neat old buildings that are vacant.

**CNY/SYR also has an incredibly underappreciated culture. I know I'm going to get a lot of backlash for talking about CNY's culture, but go to Houston and compare it to Syracuse. Houston is like a hotel in that nobody is from there, and nobody wants to live there. People are there together by chance, like passengers on a plane, until they leave for someone else. CNY and Syracuse have established communities and rich traditions that span generations. Look no further than the unique local food to see my point. Locals just do an atrocious job of marketing themselves (see the inevitable negative posts that will follow this one about CNY's/Syracuse's culture).

 

[two3zone]

It’s not a city highway though, it’s an interstate highway to and from the Canadian border ending in Tennessee which probably complicates the discussion/decisions/impact. Way too many studies. 481 has always been a route to circumvent 81 through the city proper built in the 70’s.

That's not an excuse to take 3 years to figure it out.

 

[KellySyracuse]

the NIMBYs in Jamesville opposed the inland port so it's not going to go there. Last I knew they were looking at a site in Camillus or Lakeland that is not near a residential neighborhood but does have access to the railroad

 

[gocusecaz]

The boulevard is there now. It's called Almond Street. It just has a roof over it, the viaduct.

 

[Cheriehoop]

Shandeezy what they say and what I know are different. I don’t want to fight but some of this stuff defies logic. I can only think they were speaking of city residents just like city fire trucks don’t use 81. I along with family members have had to be transported by ambulance and we all went via route 81. I Volunteer downtown and see ambulances on 81 all the time. I personally was transported from Liverpool , onto the Parkway then 81 exiting at Spencer St for St Joe’s. Leaving SU games entering 81 off W Colvin, I have seen a number of ambulances with flashing lights heading north and getting off at Adams St. They may very well use a different 81 exit heading south than Adams St though for Crouse, VA, Upstate. However they don’t exit on Park St by Destiny heading north to avoid 81 nor do they get off at Nedrow heading north to access city streets. The hospitals are regional hospitals not just city hospitals and it’s crazy to believe that the ambulances in emergencies when minutes are crucial would get off 81 before hitting the city limits or avoid 81 coming from the north or south despite what they say - thankfully they didn’t for me.

 

[Cheriehoop]

the NIMBYs in Jamesville opposed the inland port so it's not going to go there. Last I knew they were looking at a site in Camillus or Lakeland that is not near a residential neighborhood but does have access to the railroad

It was reported recently that they were close to finalizing the railroads in Dewitt as the best site. Makes sense.

DeWitt rail-yard emerges as inland port front-runner

 

[KellySyracuse]

Shandeezy what they say and what I know are different. I don’t want to fight but some of this stuff defies logic. I can only think they were speaking of city residents just like city fire trucks don’t use 81. I along with family members have had to be transported by ambulance and we all went via route 81. I Volunteer downtown and see ambulances on 81 all the time. I personally was transported from Liverpool , onto the Parkway then 81 exiting at Spencer St for St Joe’s. Leaving SU games entering 81 off W Colvin, I have seen a number of ambulances with flashing lights heading north and getting off at Adams St. They may very well use a different 81 exit heading south than Adams St though for Crouse, VA, Upstate. However they don’t exit on Park St by Destiny heading north to avoid 81 nor do they get off at Nedrow heading north to access city streets. The hospitals are regional hospitals not just city hospitals and it’s crazy to believe that the ambulances in emergencies when minutes are crucial would get off 81 before hitting the city limits or avoid 81 coming from the north or south despite what they say - thankfully they didn’t for me.

Respect your opinion but I'm surprised this is a hill you want to die on. The current viaduct might as well be the Berlin Wall. Why in the world would you want to raze existing buildings to make the bridge bigger and wider? That's not good for the city or the University. Making the argument that ambulances need the highway access is weak given the odds of gridlock on an overhead with limited options to exit the highway.

 

[gocusecaz]

Berlin Wall? Where is the problem going east to west under the viaduct? Also I'm not sure how much gridlock occurs on the viaduct. As far as the razing of buildings, some will be razed no matter what they do. If the viaduct is taken down, we might be the only city to reroute a through the city interstate in the country. As Cheriehoop stated earlier, 81 runs from the Canadian border to Tennessee. It basically was a replacement for route 11. It's not just a local expressway or interstate spur. It's a major north/south interstate.