Didn't take long to shrink the bench

[billsin01]

Well, this game WAS won when we went up by double digits. Hell, I'd say this game was won as soon as we took the lead. Is there anyone who had any doubt we would lose at that point? I know I felt like it was game, set, match as soon as CJ scored those 5 straight. Knew VA Tech was done then.

So you would have been subbing in the walkons when it was 58-53 with 5 minutes left? I get that Va Tech had a pretty big mountain to climb once it got close to double digits, but that's a far cry from saying, "Hey, let's see if Xmas is playing well. And if he isn't, we'll just recapture this momentum as soon as I re-insert CJ." Doesn't work that way, IMO.

 

[kuethstheman]

No Southerland, Rak or MCW in the second half. Very disappointing. I know our unit that's played most of the second half has been very good, but still hate to see the bench shrink so quickly in the year.

Surprised Southerland didn't get in when the offense stalled against the zone. Seems like he's been playing well enough to get more minutes and that would have been a good time. Also, Joseph probably could have used a blow. They fought through it though, so you can't complain.

 

[jekelish]

So you would have been subbing in the walkons when it was 58-53 with 5 minutes left? I get that Va Tech had a pretty big mountain to climb once it got close to double digits, but that's a far cry from saying, "Hey, let's see if Xmas is playing well. And if he isn't, we'll just recapture this momentum as soon as I re-insert CJ." Doesn't work that way, IMO.

You're going from me saying Dirty, MCW and Rak to walkons? Really?

 

[billsin01]

James problem is defense. When he got taken out it was after he looked bad on the 3 but them came down court and didn't rotate at all and an easy 3 was made by VT. He always looks good against weak teams but struggles a lot against decent teams. He is a great shooter but seems to force them or hurry. Plus he can't create his own shot at all. His D is below average too. But there will be games where nobody is shooting the 3 well and JB will try him and if he is hitting some, he'll play. I like him the most in the press guarding the inbound pass.

I'm glad you're not my professor, as this seems like a harsh critique after a guy had a clunker. I don't know what Southerland's role will be though I was certainly intrigued after the first few games. But I thought his defense was actually pretty good in those games and while he doesn't create his own shot, he's very capable of making contested shots. I could certainly see a scenario in which he gets decent minutes (10-12 mpg vs. good teams) with that skill set. May not happen, but I actually think he has pretty good potential defensively. Consistency seems like the bigger issue.

 

[hungrychuck]

James problem is defense. When he got taken out it was after he looked bad on the 3 but them came down court and didn't rotate at all and an easy 3 was made by VT. He always looks good against weak teams but struggles a lot against decent teams. He is a great shooter but seems to force them or hurry. Plus he can't create his own shot at all. His D is below average too. But there will be games where nobody is shooting the 3 well and JB will try him and if he is hitting some, he'll play. I like him the most in the press guarding the inbound pass.

This is exactly right.

Which is why you don't annoint him based on games against Albany and Colgate.

 

[billsin01]

You're going from me saying Dirty, MCW and Rak to walkons? Really?

I was exaggerating, obviously. I will now make the point as simply as possible: You can't sub in guys to develop them when you still need to win and you have a unit that is in the midst of a nice run. That momentum is too elusive to with. But I too hope it's not the end of those three and I don't think it will be.

 

[SUintheVille]

Basic rules...

1. In "meaningful" games, bench will be shorter in 2nd half than in 1st.
2. The team is deep, but only the hot hands get the best minutes (except KJo who plays regardless).
3. Because of Rule 2, the combo of players who play a lot in one game may be quite different the next game. Only 7 may play, but not the same 7.
4. Those who fail to make the core group for more and more games will see progressively less time as their "game" slowly decays.
5. After a game where a core group plays many minutes, certain fans will proclaim all other players are screwed and will ride the pine from here on.
6. JB's established habits will not change, despite depth, talent, and fans who know best.

 

[The General]

Hate the short bench this early in the year. You're telling me up 10 or so much of the second half Dirty, Rak and MCW couldn't get some experience?

I find this to be such a bizarre post. We were not in command of that game until like the 4 minute mark. Get guys experience? What? How about win the game. That's it. That's what matters. And Southerland has plenty of experience. He started games last year.

What is this game 5 or whatever? We still have plenty of "experience" games coming up in December. MCW, as I stated before, will be very lucky to get 10 minutes a game once Big East play starts. Very. Nothing about this game said, "let's get some guys some experience." They can play 20 minutes against the Bonnies.

I thought JB did a great job with his line up in the second half. A great job.

 

[jordoo]

But not starting Christmas in the second half? That's a little difficult to defend.

Not at all since CJ is a better player to begin with. Seriously what did Rak do in his 3min that makes you want to risk loosing the game to play him in the second half. He was atrocious on his side of the zone in those 3 min BTW. Did he block any shots? Did he get any rebounds? People want Rak to play even though CJ is the best rebounder on the team so far this year, plays better defense and is a much better offensive player that actually has experience. VS Rak in a tight game its a no brainer to me.

 

[jordoo]

I just think it's a little early to toss Christmas to the end of the bench after a defensive lapse 90 seconds into the game. We're going to need better defensive rebounding this year than we'll get from the line-up that played the second half tonight. I'm not saying Christmas would've earned major second-half minutes tonight, but he probably should've started the second half.

You realize that that better defensive rebounding will need to come from our center and guard position since CJ and Kris both had like 7 a piece on the defensive glass.

 

[OttoMets]

Not at all since CJ is a better player to begin with. Seriously what did Rak do in his 3min that makes you want to risk loosing the game to play him in the second half. He was atrocious on his side of the zone in those 3 min BTW. Did he block any shots? Did he get any rebounds? People want Rak to play even though CJ is the best rebounder on the team so far this year, plays better defense and is a much better offensive player that actually has experience. VS Rak in a tight game its a no brainer to me.

To be honest, if it means sacrificing a win tonight but moving toward having a game-ready Christmas in March, I'd rather see him real minutes tonight. And I don't know that that would've sacrificed a win tonight.

Fair's a very good and smart player, and he rebounds very well for his size. But I don't believe that a team with Fair playing 90% of the minutes at the 4 is going to win a national championship. We've got a potentially great four, and he needs game experience.

 

[arbitragegls]

JB is all about winning...each and every game...in close games he is going with the 5 best players that night...lots of discussion about #8, 9, 10...how about fact that Scoop, one of team leaders, rode the pine for nearly all of 2nd half...that is telling...it says, play well and you play...play poorly or not as good as we need and you sit...the pine is player blind...any one's ass can sit on it

 

[OttoMets]

You realize that that better defensive rebounding will need to come from our center and guard position since CJ and Kris both had like 7 a piece on the defensive glass.

Not at all; their ten apiece were great, but look at the possessions in which Tech got offensive rebounds - they were beating Fair. He's in position 95% of the time, but he got outjumped on several possessions.

 

[jordoo]

To be honest, if it means sacrificing a win tonight but moving toward having a game-ready Christmas in March, I'd rather see him real minutes tonight. And I don't know that that would've sacrificed a win tonight.

Fair's a very good and smart player, and he rebounds very well for his size. But I don't believe that a team with Fair playing 90% of the minutes at the 4 is going to win a national championship. We've got a potentially great four, and he needs game experience.

I wouldn't trade a win especially in a preseason tourney that would mean the difference between playing for the championship and playing for 3rd place.

How do we know that CJ won't improve more in these minutes than Rak would? Do we even know if Rak would be ready by giving him 5-10 more minutes a game? How many games would that cost us? How many seed spots would those losses cost us?You play and coach to win the game you are playing. If Rak cannot improve enough in the easy OOC games and practice to be ready for BE play then 10,min during BE play won't make him ready to impact a NC teams run IMO. He is being given a chance to start over two more deserving forwards IMO so if he doesn't do well and sits the bench so be it.

 

[jordoo]

Not at all; their ten apiece were great, but look at the possessions in which Tech got offensive rebounds - they were beating Fair. He's in position 95% of the time, but he got outjumped on several possessions.

This was a result of stretching the zone because they shot the 3 so well which then leaves the center to guard the FT line player and makes the wings vulnerable to offensive rebounding. The zone is always like that when we extend it way out and Rak would have been even more out of position if he were in IMO. Greenbug made a great adjustment to have one of his forwards seal the wing player as soon as they got the ball to the FT line after Fab was blocking those shots. Remember VT ad a lot of time to prepare for our defense and then they hit a bunch of deep jumpers forcing us to extend which always opens up the offensive glass. It was more of a 2-3 zone issue than a player issue IMO.

 

[newmexicuse]

To be honest, if it means sacrificing a win tonight but moving toward having a game-ready Christmas in March, I'd rather see him real minutes tonight. And I don't know that that would've sacrificed a win tonight.

Fair's a very good and smart player, and he rebounds very well for his size. But I don't believe that a team with Fair playing 90% of the minutes at the 4 is going to win a national championship. We've got a potentially great four, and he needs game experience.

Your not going to get to a FF this season if XMas gets most of the minutes at the four. I am not saying he can't help & I am not saying there will never be a matchup when he should play 20+ minutes in a given game. He is a work in process.He will need a year or two to become a force. This year CJ should be starting & getting 30+ minutes at the four. If that doesn't get us deep then it is not our destiny to go deep this season.

Next season CJ probably slides to the three & Xmas can beat out Jerami to start at the four & get his minutes as a "real" starter depending upon where DC plays.

 

[OttoMets]

I wouldn't trade a win especially in a preseason tourney that would mean the difference between playing for the championship and playing for 3rd place. If we'd lost tonight, I probably wouldn't either - it's easy for me to complain about small things when we win.

How do we know that CJ won't improve more in these minutes than Rak would? Physical limitations - 6'9" with giant armspan versus not 6'9" (no need to rehash the height argument) and not giant armspan. Do we even know if Rak would be ready by giving him 5-10 more minutes a game? Nope. How many games would that cost us? How many seed spots would those losses cost us?You play and coach to win the game you are playing. If Rak cannot improve enough in the easy OOC games and practice to be ready for BE play then 10,min during BE play won't make him ready to impact a NC teams run IMO. He is being given a chance to start over two more deserving forwards IMO so if he doesn't do well and sits the bench so be it.

I get your point (especially the last sentence). Especially after the lesson learned two years ago, though, I wish Boeheim would prioritize force-feeding heavy early-season minutes to certain guys who we're likely to need, and I think Christmas is one of those guys. This is a team with only one true four, and he's it. I don't know for sure, but it's pretty likely that he'll be better with 15 minutes against the Virginia Techs on the schedule than 3.

More concisely: our ceiling is higher with a game-ready Christmas than with an inexperienced Christmas whose minutes have been yanked around.

 

[fanfanclubclub]

our ceiling is higher with a game-ready Christmas than with an inexperienced Christmas whose minutes have been yanked around.

playing time is a zero sum game. the more we make Xmas ready, the less we can invest in others.

that's why I've been so vocal about not investing too many shots/minutes in Scoop and Southerland, because they are not championship caliber horses, and we need the minutes for our stars. Glad JB agrees.

 

[Orangezoo]

sheesh.. I think we are all a bit rabid amidst all the allegations. Glad to get heavy into on the court details... Heres my thoughts..

When March Rolls around.. its important that we know who can be counted on to make things happen when we need points. Kris, Dion, CJ Brandon and Fab are the five that will get you points, defense and boards in a tooth and nail halfcourt showdown. James and Rak have showed us some stuff as has MCW in the first few cupcakes. Rak and MCW have a total of 5 collegiate games under their belt.. quick learners yes.. but not that quick. They got a taste, and then a good view of how its done.

The bench will be 10 deep all year. How much the 8-10 guys are used... depends on the matchup. We need Kris to be a go to guy who can get it done. We also need James to be a guy who can spell Kris when needed. James has turned another corner this year.. but an aggressive in your face defense is not the type of team you need James against. He is a guy who can score in bunches and hustles - but he is a utility guy.. 5-6 minutes a game regularly and 15 or more situationally as needed. Rak will be important come big east time. There will be games when Fab and Baye both get hit with early fouls. Tech was scrappy .. CJ is the best guy for the job against a scrappy team. You needed guys who could get to the rim tonight. There are going to be times when CJ is just not strong enough on the glass and Kris much the same. Rak will be needed.. no doubt about that.

Im excited to see that we have a lineup thats deadly with Waiters, Triche, Kris, CJ and Fab/Baye. There are going to be nights when both Dion and Triche are off or Dion/Scoop etc etc and MCW is going to need to come in as a spark... and no doubt he will.. the kid is a major talent. Lets not rush to judgment after the first game against a team that didnt lay down.

I think Stanford will be less of a challenge than tech and should be a good opportunity for James/MCW/Rak to get some experience against better competition. Also I would imagine Kris will be a bit sore and need a few more blows...

 

[44cuse]

No Southerland, Rak or MCW in the second half. Very disappointing. I know our unit that's played most of the second half has been very good, but still hate to see the bench shrink so quickly in the year.

I'm with that 100%.

44cuse

 

[Victory Lap]

Chill homies... Chill

 

[Orangeyes]

Slow pace of the game by VT didn't require much of a bench. JB just used the guys that were playing the best.

Exactly!

 

[Orangeyes]

Scoop, Rak and South didn't play well. Don't blame JB.

With a limited possession game like that you go with the guys who are shooting, defending and rebounding the best. JB did an outstanding job of indentifying the right combination for last nights matchups.

 

[kuethstheman]

Plenty of time to get Rak ready.

To be honest, if it means sacrificing a win tonight but moving toward having a game-ready Christmas in March, I'd rather see him real minutes tonight. And I don't know that that would've sacrificed a win tonight.

Fair's a very good and smart player, and he rebounds very well for his size. But I don't believe that a team with Fair playing 90% of the minutes at the 4 is going to win a national championship. We've got a potentially great four, and he needs game experience.

 

[BlueCurtain]

Slow pace of the game by VT didn't require much of a bench. JB just used the guys that were playing the best.

The pace was slow because the birdwatching zone deferred to VT's style. We should have won by 20 or 30 had we played with a less cowardly defense.