DiMaggio vs. Mantle | Syracusefan.com

DiMaggio vs. Mantle

SWC75

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I had occasion to examine their career numbers:

Joe: Joe DiMaggio Stats | Baseball-Reference.com

Mickey: Mickey Mantle Stats | Baseball-Reference.com

What jumps out at me it is the disparity in extra base hits between the two men. Mantle played in 665 more games than Joe. he does have 175 more home runs but he has 44 fewer doubles and 59 fewer triples. Joe was fast but Mickey, per the stop watch, was the fastest player in baseball history, (3.1 seconds from home to first). Both players lost home runs to the bloated dimensions of Yankee Stadium when they played, It was 457 feet to deepest center field and even father - 461 feet - to left center, which was called "Death Valley" because that's where home runs went to die. DiMaggio hit 148 home runs at home and 213 on the road, one of the largest differentials in history, (41%-59%). Mickey's more even, 266-270 (basically 50-50) so Yankee Stadium didn't hurt him nearly as much, largely because he was a switch hitter and had greater power.

Still, there had to have been a lot of Mickey's drives that didn't make it out because it was Yankee Stadium and would have given Mickey a chance to use his legs. Mickey's double and triple totals seem anemic or at least strange. He had a couple of double figure triples totals early on but in one of those years he had only 17 doubles. In 1958 he led the league with 42 home tuns but only 21 doubles and 1 triple. He had one year with 37 doubles early in his career but never had more than 28 in any other year and exceeded 17 doubles only one in his last 9 years. He had 12 triples in 1954 and 11 in 1955 but never more than 6 in any year after that. He had that many in his least 7 seasons combined. He famously had many injuries but was still playing 93 games in center field as late as 1966. Joe, on the other hand, had 30+ doubles 7 times and 40+ twice. He had double figures in triples 8 times. The last such year of each was his second to last season, 1950. And he had injuries, too. He had 33 doubles and 10 triples the year after his bone spur operation.

Let's look at the per 162 game numbers. Joe averaged 637 official at bats, 34 strike-outs and 207 hits, of which 125 were singles 36 doubles, 12 triples and 34 home runs. He put the ball in play 603 times and 396 of those were outs, (65.7%). 20.7% were singles, 6.0% doubles, 2.0% triples and 5.6% home runs. Mickey averaged 547 at bats, 115 strike-outs, 163 hits, 99 singles. 23 doubles, 5 triples, and 38 home runs. He put the ball in play 432 times and 269 of those were outs. (62.3%). 22.9% were singles, 5.3% doubles, 1.1% triples and 8.8% home runs. Focusing on home games, (see "splits"), those numbers become 66.9% outs, 20.4% singles, 5.8% doubles, 2.3% triples and 4.6% home runs for Joe and 61.7% outs, 23.3% singles, 5.2% doubles, 1.4% triples and 8.4% homers for Mickey. Not really a huge home to road difference, which surprises me. It's interesting that Joe made more outs on his balls in play than Mickey, despite his higher batting average.

I think it may have come down to this: I think Mickey had more of an upper-cut swing, the sort that hitters are being taught today. This would produce more fly balls which would be more likely to be caught. Joe was more of a line drive hitter who hit the ball between the fielders so it could bounce around more and give him a chance to take an extra base. Another factor is that if you avoid strikeouts and walks and keep the ball in play, you are going to get more extra base hits than if everything is decided in the batter's box.
 
I had occasion to examine their career numbers:

Joe: Joe DiMaggio Stats | Baseball-Reference.com

Mickey: Mickey Mantle Stats | Baseball-Reference.com

What jumps out at me it is the disparity in extra base hits between the two men. Mantle played in 665 more games than Joe. he does have 175 more home runs but he has 44 fewer doubles and 59 fewer triples. Joe was fast but Mickey, per the stop watch, was the fastest player in baseball history, (3.1 seconds from home to first). Both players lost home runs to the bloated dimensions of Yankee Stadium when they played, It was 457 feet to deepest center field and even father - 461 feet - to left center, which was called "Death Valley" because that's where home runs went to die. DiMaggio hit 148 home runs at home and 213 on the road, one of the largest differentials in history, (41%-59%). Mickey's more even, 266-270 (basically 50-50) so Yankee Stadium didn't hurt him nearly as much, largely because he was a switch hitter and had greater power.

Still, there had to have been a lot of Mickey's drives that didn't make it out because it was Yankee Stadium and would have given Mickey a chance to use his legs. Mickey's double and triple totals seem anemic or at least strange. He had a couple of double figure triples totals early on but in one of those years he had only 17 doubles. In 1958 he led the league with 42 home tuns but only 21 doubles and 1 triple. He had one year with 37 doubles early in his career but never had more than 28 in any other year and exceeded 17 doubles only one in his last 9 years. He had 12 triples in 1954 and 11 in 1955 but never more than 6 in any year after that. He had that many in his least 7 seasons combined. He famously had many injuries but was still playing 93 games in center field as late as 1966. Joe, on the other hand, had 30+ doubles 7 times and 40+ twice. He had double figures in triples 8 times. The last such year of each was his second to last season, 1950. And he had injuries, too. He had 33 doubles and 10 triples the year after his bone spur operation.

Let's look at the per 162 game numbers. Joe averaged 637 official at bats, 34 strike-outs and 207 hits, of which 125 were singles 36 doubles, 12 triples and 34 home runs. He put the ball in play 603 times and 396 of those were outs, (65.7%). 20.7% were singles, 6.0% doubles, 2.0% triples and 5.6% home runs. Mickey averaged 547 at bats, 115 strike-outs, 163 hits, 99 singles. 23 doubles, 5 triples, and 38 home runs. He put the ball in play 432 times and 269 of those were outs. (62.3%). 22.9% were singles, 5.3% doubles, 1.1% triples and 8.8% home runs. Focusing on home games, (see "splits"), those numbers become 66.9% outs, 20.4% singles, 5.8% doubles, 2.3% triples and 4.6% home runs for Joe and 61.7% outs, 23.3% singles, 5.2% doubles, 1.4% triples and 8.4% homers for Mickey. Not really a huge home to road difference, which surprises me. It's interesting that Joe made more outs on his balls in play than Mickey, despite his higher batting average.

I think it may have come down to this: I think Mickey had more of an upper-cut swing, the sort that hitters are being taught today. This would produce more fly balls which would be more likely to be caught. Joe was more of a line drive hitter who hit the ball between the fielders so it could bounce around more and give him a chance to take an extra base. Another factor is that if you avoid strikeouts and walks and keep the ball in play, you are going to get more extra base hits than if everything is decided in the batter's box.
I never saw Mickey play. Wish I could have in his prime.

Mantle ruined his knee in the World Series his rookie year and never was the same after that. There is a school of thought that the injury involved a torn ACL and MCL. The doctors in those days could not fix these kinds of injuries.

That couldn’t have helped him. But from what I have read, I think you are right. Mickey was a fly ball hitter who didn’t hit a lot of line drives. I suspect outfielders played him very deep, making it hard to get the ball into the gaps in the outfield. It is still weird how few doubles he got though...

 
I never saw Mickey play. Wish I could have in his prime.

Mantle ruined his knee in the World Series his rookie year and never was the same after that. There is a school of thought that the injury involved a torn ACL and MCL. The doctors in those days could not fix these kinds of injuries.

That couldn’t have helped him. But from what I have read, I think you are right. Mickey was a fly ball hitter who didn’t hit a lot of line drives. I suspect outfielders played him very deep, making it hard to get the ball into the gaps in the outfield. It is still weird how few doubles he got though...



The thing is, he retained or regained much of his speed after that early injury, playing center field for years. he also stole 21 bases, his career high, (and a high total for that era, second in the league: the Yankees as a team stole 45 bases that year), a year after he had 21 doubles and 1 triple.

Also the deeper the outfielders play, the wider the gaps between them.
 
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"Also the deeper the outfielders play, the wider the gaps between them."

That's true. But playing deep gives the outfielder more time to cut the ball off. This should result in more singles, but fewer extra-base hits. This may account, in part, for for the data you cite.
 
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"Also the deeper the outfielders play, the wider the gaps between them."

That's true. But playing deep gives the outfielder more time to cut the ball off. This should result in more singles, but fewer extra-base hits. This may account, in part, for for the data you cite.


Note this comment from the Wikipedia article on Coors Field: "In spite of the pushed-back fences, for many years Coors Field not only gave up the most home runs in baseball, but due to the resultant large field area, the most doubles and triples as well." I'm sure the outfielders play back there.

Coors Field - Wikipedia

On the other hand, I remember when they played the All-Star game there. With the top sluggers in baseball there, everyone assumed it would be a home run derby. instead it was a singles derby:


Of the 31 hits in the game, 3 were home runs, 1 was a double, 1 was a triple and 26 were singles, likely because of exactly what you said.
 
In terms of natural talent Mantle is definitely in the discussion for best ever. Osteomyelitis, injuries and drinking prevented his talent from being fully realized.
 
In terms of natural talent Mantle is definitely in the discussion for best ever. Osteomyelitis, injuries and drinking prevented his talent from being fully realized.
Mantle was out of baseball at 36 and wasn’t very productive his last four seasons. He and Ted Williams (who missed five years due to military service) would’ve had stupendous numbers had their careers been uninterrupted, so to speak.
 
Mantle was out of baseball at 36 and wasn’t very productive his last four seasons. He and Ted Williams (who missed five years due to military service) would’ve had stupendous numbers had their careers been uninterrupted, so to speak.

Mantle's actual # were pretty damn good, even up till the end. Just the entire game had changed to one that was really pitching heavy, and I don't think a lot of people noticed his OBP. He was 9th in the AL in 68 in OPS, just the league had a 637 OPS as a whole.

I really do wonder how close to Ruth Williams could've gotten without the missed time to war. He missed all of 43-45, he hit basically 38 HR the year before and the year after he came back; he could easily be projected for 110 or so there. Also missed nearly all of 52 and 80% of 53, maybe another 50 there? So you probably can't really get him to 714, but he probably ends up ahead of where Mays finished.
 
Mantle's actual # were pretty damn good, even up till the end. Just the entire game had changed to one that was really pitching heavy, and I don't think a lot of people noticed his OBP. He was 9th in the AL in 68 in OPS, just the league had a 637 OPS as a whole.

I really do wonder how close to Ruth Williams could've gotten without the missed time to war. He missed all of 43-45, he hit basically 38 HR the year before and the year after he came back; he could easily be projected for 110 or so there. Also missed nearly all of 52 and 80% of 53, maybe another 50 there? So you probably can't really get him to 714, but he probably ends up ahead of where Mays finished.
Teddy Ballgame hits .406 in 1941 - I say again, .406 - and does not win the MVP. Next year he wins the Triple Crown and does not win the MVP. In ‘47 wins the Triple Crown again and does not win the MVP award. Just bewildering. What a baseball oddity.
I guess it helps to be amicable with the press.
Pitching did rule in ‘68. So much so that in 1969 the powers that be lowered the mound 5 inches to spark a little more fan-oriented offense.

Sorry, don’t mean to hijack here. Baseball just has so many wonderful cross currents.
 
Teddy Ballgame hits .406 in 1941 - I say again, .406 - and does not win the MVP. Next year he wins the Triple Crown and does not win the MVP. In ‘47 wins the Triple Crown again and does not win the MVP award. Just bewildering. What a baseball oddity.
I guess it helps to be amicable with the press.
Pitching did rule in ‘68. So much so that in 1969 the powers that be lowered the mound 5 inches to spark a little more fan-oriented offense.

Sorry, don’t mean to hijack here. Baseball just has so many wonderful cross currents.

Yeah you gotta wonder about some of those MVP votes. I know DiMaggio had the hitting streak and the Yankees won the league by a bunch, so maybe I could see it in 41, but 42 and 47 are kinda hard to see how it happened like that
 
That's right, Teddy Ballgame once flipped off the Fenway Faithful. In fact, he pulled it off in both ends of a doubleheader. In the first game of a 1950 twin bill, the Tigers were on their way to a 13-4 blowout win when Williams dropped a routine fly ball. The fans let him have it. Ben Bradlee Jr. tells the story in "The Kid: The Immortal Life of Ted Williams":

Piqued, the Kid extended the middle finger of each hand and gave the paying customers what for.

In the second game, with the Sox leading 2-0, Detroit had the bases loaded with two out in the eighth when Vic Wertz hit a sharp grounder into left field. Ted charged the ball, trying to keep the tying run from scoring, but it took a bad hop, skidded past him and rolled all the way to the wall. All three runners scored, and at the end of the inning, the crowd of 27,758 jeered Williams mercilessly as he ran off the field. Ted responded by again extending his finger to the fans, this time in three separate dramatic gestures to different sections of the park.

Teammate Walt Dropo said Williams even saluted his friends in the press box. As he stood on deck and the boos continued, Williams "turned around and spat contemptuously at the crowd." After the game, Williams -- unlike Collins -- didn't apologize. The fans, "they can -- themselves, and you can quote me in all the papers," Williams said. Ted Williams, everyone!
 
Never saw either but it goes to can't go wrong either way. Mickey had more power and the bigger cult following Joe was prob the better all around player.
 
Despite the title I wasn't really trying to estimate their value as players. I wondered why Joe had so many more doubles and triples than Mickey who played in the same ballpark and was even faster. I think the fly ball vs. line drive hitter theory has the most weight but even than doesn't quite explain the discrepancy. it's probably several things.

Everybody has their what ifs, except maybe Hank Aaron. Babe Ruth was a pitcher in the dead ball era for the first five years of his career. If he'd been an outfielder in the live ball era for his entire career, he might have hit 900 homers and everybody else's what ifs wouldn't have mattered.
 
Yeah you gotta wonder about some of those MVP votes. I know DiMaggio had the hitting streak and the Yankees won the league by a bunch, so maybe I could see it in 41, but 42 and 47 are kinda hard to see how it happened like that

From the Bill James Historical Baseball Abstract (1986):

"Williams actually did extremely well in MVP voting throughout his career. I cannot agree with those who feel he should done better. While everybody knows that Williams lost the 1947 MVP vote by one point because a Boston writer named Mel Webb left Williams entirely off his ballot, what nobody remembers about that ballot was that three voters left DiMaggio entirely off their ballot and three others had him 8th, 9th and 10th on the ballot, whereas no one other than Webb had Williams lower than 7th. Williams lost that vote because only three people out of the twenty four man panel thought he was was the Most Valuable Player."
 
From the Bill James Historical Baseball Abstract (1986):

"Williams actually did extremely well in MVP voting throughout his career. I cannot agree with those who feel he should done better. While everybody knows that Williams lost the 1947 MVP vote by one point because a Boston writer named Mel Webb left Williams entirely off his ballot, what nobody remembers about that ballot was that three voters left DiMaggio entirely off their ballot and three others had him 8th, 9th and 10th on the ballot, whereas no one other than Webb had Williams lower than 7th. Williams lost that vote because only three people out of the twenty four man panel thought he was was the Most Valuable Player."

Vaguely remember this; I couldn't find the exact voting details on Baseball Reference.
 
I had occasion to examine their career numbers:

Joe: Joe DiMaggio Stats | Baseball-Reference.com

Mickey: Mickey Mantle Stats | Baseball-Reference.com

What jumps out at me it is the disparity in extra base hits between the two men. Mantle played in 665 more games than Joe. he does have 175 more home runs but he has 44 fewer doubles and 59 fewer triples. Joe was fast but Mickey, per the stop watch, was the fastest player in baseball history, (3.1 seconds from home to first). Both players lost home runs to the bloated dimensions of Yankee Stadium when they played, It was 457 feet to deepest center field and even father - 461 feet - to left center, which was called "Death Valley" because that's where home runs went to die. DiMaggio hit 148 home runs at home and 213 on the road, one of the largest differentials in history, (41%-59%). Mickey's more even, 266-270 (basically 50-50) so Yankee Stadium didn't hurt him nearly as much, largely because he was a switch hitter and had greater power.

Still, there had to have been a lot of Mickey's drives that didn't make it out because it was Yankee Stadium and would have given Mickey a chance to use his legs. Mickey's double and triple totals seem anemic or at least strange. He had a couple of double figure triples totals early on but in one of those years he had only 17 doubles. In 1958 he led the league with 42 home tuns but only 21 doubles and 1 triple. He had one year with 37 doubles early in his career but never had more than 28 in any other year and exceeded 17 doubles only one in his last 9 years. He had 12 triples in 1954 and 11 in 1955 but never more than 6 in any year after that. He had that many in his least 7 seasons combined. He famously had many injuries but was still playing 93 games in center field as late as 1966. Joe, on the other hand, had 30+ doubles 7 times and 40+ twice. He had double figures in triples 8 times. The last such year of each was his second to last season, 1950. And he had injuries, too. He had 33 doubles and 10 triples the year after his bone spur operation.

Let's look at the per 162 game numbers. Joe averaged 637 official at bats, 34 strike-outs and 207 hits, of which 125 were singles 36 doubles, 12 triples and 34 home runs. He put the ball in play 603 times and 396 of those were outs, (65.7%). 20.7% were singles, 6.0% doubles, 2.0% triples and 5.6% home runs. Mickey averaged 547 at bats, 115 strike-outs, 163 hits, 99 singles. 23 doubles, 5 triples, and 38 home runs. He put the ball in play 432 times and 269 of those were outs. (62.3%). 22.9% were singles, 5.3% doubles, 1.1% triples and 8.8% home runs. Focusing on home games, (see "splits"), those numbers become 66.9% outs, 20.4% singles, 5.8% doubles, 2.3% triples and 4.6% home runs for Joe and 61.7% outs, 23.3% singles, 5.2% doubles, 1.4% triples and 8.4% homers for Mickey. Not really a huge home to road difference, which surprises me. It's interesting that Joe made more outs on his balls in play than Mickey, despite his higher batting average.

I think it may have come down to this: I think Mickey had more of an upper-cut swing, the sort that hitters are being taught today. This would produce more fly balls which would be more likely to be caught. Joe was more of a line drive hitter who hit the ball between the fielders so it could bounce around more and give him a chance to take an extra base. Another factor is that if you avoid strikeouts and walks and keep the ball in play, you are going to get more extra base hits than if everything is decided in the batter's box.


Surely you know that Mickey Mantle caught his cleats in the sprinkler system in Yankee Stadium during the 1951 World Series - his rookie year - and tore up his knee. His amazing speed was never quite the same, and it turned into a chronic problem.
 
Mantle was out of baseball at 36 and wasn’t very productive his last four seasons. He and Ted Williams (who missed five years due to military service) would’ve had stupendous numbers had their careers been uninterrupted, so to speak.

Terrific Ted Williams biography on Netflix right now. Highly recommended.
 
Surely you know that Mickey Mantle caught his cleats in the sprinkler system in Yankee Stadium during the 1951 World Series - his rookie year - and tore up his knee. His amazing speed was never quite the same, and it turned into a chronic problem.


I know he had that injury but he played center field in spacious Yankee Stadium for another 15 years and, as I pointed out above, he stole bases at an unusual rate for the time. he was referred throughout the prime of his career as having unusual speed.
 
Great documentary about Mantle. If you've never seen it.

Mickey Mantle: The Definitive Story (MLB Baseball Sports Documentary)

 
They were both among the greatest to ever play the game. I can't separate them.
 
They were both among the greatest to ever play the game. I can't separate them.


The great players are more similar than they are different.
 
I'll admit that I'm biased. I've got Mediterranean blood and a fondness for my paisans.
 

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