Dirty vs Grant

[TheRoyalIveyFund]

Over the wknd, I caught a few mins of that replay all-star game and thanks to the magic of dvr, watched just about all of Grant and it only took about 10 mins of real time. Any who, Grant reminded me of two people - Damone Brown and John Wallace. He appears to be way ahead of Damone at this point and has a similar game to John (again, small sample size here). If he has JW's instincts for the game, then look out. This tells how far we've come recruiting because for the previous decade or so, he'd be getting a lot of attention as a star.

If Rak and DC are around for 13-14, then a frontline of a senior Fair, jun Rak, and sophs DC and Grant will be fantastic, Billy O/DC-like. With Carter-Will-Cooney, we'll start #1 in 13. Next year, I'm still confident of a good run but I think the years of top-notch recruiting has not paid off yet- it starts this year and hits a zenith in 13-14 (and hopefully continues...).

 

[jekelish]

Imo...Great post.
I think we could have one of the top 3 if not the best SF Combo in the country.
I wouldn't be surprised one bit if SF is the strength of our offense. Its all about the confidence which CJ and James have a ton of. We really don't have a returning isolation player on this team either so its wide open.

And SF will be a huge part of the glue of our defense.
Fair is a very very scrappy defender, Southerland is above average to scrappy.

I wouldn't be surprised to see Grant as a CJ-like freshmen campaign with a better jumper maybe. Curious what he will bring on D.

I don't think Southerlands dribble is that bad. Hes just not the type of forward who is going to take it to the rim off the dribble. But he can still move the ball off one to two dribbles if he isn't being doubled.

If you don't think Southerland's handle is that bad, I'm just not sure what you've been watching.

Of course, we had people on this board saying during the fall that Joseph had a "great" handle, so who knows what some people use to measure that skill by. I'm assuming they mean in comparison to a drunk giraffe.

 

[AlaskaSU]

I cannot recall a single instance when James used a dribble drive.

 

[shermstheman]

Let me be the first to suggest that JB is purposely not playing Grant because he doesn't want him going pro.
Grant has the most pro potential out of the two and you don't sit those guys without a reason. And I don't care about the (insert insanely good record) because they could have gotten that with Grant in there too.

That would be coaching suicide. What recruit would even consider
Coming to the Cuse if was even remotely possible? Suffice it to say
JB trusts upperclassmen more.

 

[shizzah]

I get the Grant and John Wallace comparisons; Grant is 6'8", long arms, has an improving jump shot and a bit of dribble drive ability and they kind of even dunk the same. The major difference between the two, however, and this is a big one, is that JW had primary scorer confidence and was in that attack mode. At this point in time Jerami is maybe headed in that direction but definitely not there in terms of confidence and objective when he gets on the court.

Grant is probably never going to get that killer type mentality that Wallace had - he simply doesn't have that demeanor. However, the rate at which is game is expanding his skill set his going to be extremely high by the time he's done - scoring, rebounding and defense - going to be a heck of an all around force. Maybe not as much of a closer as JW though...but we'll see!

 

[orangefog]

If Southerland develops his handle as a shooting guard, he will be a first round draft pick next year. Not going to happen though. I was pleased to see that he could bounce the ball twice in a row this year and then pick it up and pass it to a guard. I really hope that he learns to dribble enough to drive to the basket, but I just don't see it happening.

 

[Jake]

Just a couple of thoughts. Both Coleman and Grant have looked better athletically that what I was expecting. That's all you can really gather from these all-star games. Grant hit a couple of wide open J's in the Jordan game...but nobody gets that open in Big East games.

Grant is going to be buried on the bench behind James and Fair. But he's got a nice upside if he can add 10-15 lbs on that frame. I think he can.

Coleman gives us something we don't have, and that's a post presence. That alone will carve out time on the floor. Still can't see him playing anything but the "5" in the zone. No way he's going to be effective closing out on shooters. Nor should he be expected to.

Its going to be interesting to see how Rak is used next year. Neither Coleman or Keita can play the 4, which means Rak plays the middle only when we go small.

Teams are going to defend us much differently next year. I expect teams to crowd us and dare us to beat them off the dribble. Would like to see more of a motion offense next year with fewer high screens, and more down screens for our shooters - much like 2010.

Love the parts to next year's team if Coleman can give us legit points and rebounds. We won't be as lethal in transition, but we shouldn't be as lethargic in the half court.

Our defense should be better. We'll be bigger up front and CJ is a significant upgrade over KJO on the defensive end of the court.

 

[EastCoast2]

Just a couple of thoughts. Both Coleman and Grant have looked better athletically that what I was expecting.

Yep, this was a nice surprise. I've seen Grant's highlight tapes, but he looks like a PF out there with his height. Excited to see what 1-2 years of a college weight lighting/strength program will do for him. I've seen Coleman in person a number of times over the past few years, he is a lot more athletic than people assume. People who think he is going to be AO couldn't be more off. Right now, Coleman is significantly more athletic than Onuaku ever was, and that's before he's about work out for 6 months before the season starts. Great footwork down low and a soft touch. If he can learn the 5 on defense he'll get a lot of PT IMO.

Grant is going to be buried on the bench behind James and Fair. But he's got a nice upside if he can add 10-15 lbs on that frame. I think he can.

Grant has wide shoulders you like to see on prospects, he could add 20 lbs and still be skinny. Excited to see him in the dunk contest for MM next October.

 

[Vitamin G]

Don't down play jS's game. It's not just about scoring. He is a great defender and shot blocker. He's not a bad rebounder either. Even when he's not hitting 3's he keeps defenses honest by taking them. This opens up the middle for others to operate.

Dirty will get plenty of minutes on a much longer leash next year. Grant will be great but not fast enough to steal his senior year minutes. IMO CJ needs to improve his strength and consistency. His game dropped late in the season.

 

[garnermike]

I'm just surprised by many of you being so firm in your convictions that Grant will necessarily sit -- a lot. He's good enough to make the Jordan Brand game, and one never knows how much a kid will improve before he arrives on campus, or will just fit into a niche within with what the other players bring to team play. Someone's already brought up the CJ Fair frosh example. I'll go back further---to Lawrence Moten (remember, I'm an old dude) . While highly recruited, I recall he was not a first-team Mickey D'er (but I do recall seeing him play in a televised Capital District (D.C.) All-Star game. Reaction to him in that game by many SU fans was that he was a thin, indescribable, unathletic-looking tweener, that he seemed a bit lost on the court (except for the garbage points he seemed to always cash in), and that he would be hard pressed to see significant court time as a frosh. The first-game (vs. Cornell) starters his freshman year (1991-92) were D. Johnson, Hopkins, Autry, Siock, and Michael Edwards. Moten played 17 minutes in that first game, and, as was his rep, scrounged 10 "garbage" points. Well, he didn't start in the next game either, but he did by the third game, and wound up averaging 18 ppg that season. And became the Big East's all time leading scorer by the time he left...

 

[realorange]

Let me be the first to suggest that JB is purposely not playing Grant because he doesn't want him going pro.
Grant has the most pro potential out of the two and you don't sit those guys without a reason. And I don't care about the (insert insanely good record) because they could have gotten that with Grant in there too.

I guess that is why he should have sat Melo out in 2003. :crazy:

 

[br801]

I'm just surprised by many of you being so firm in your convictions that Grant will necessarily sit -- a lot. He's good enough to make the Jordan Brand game, and one never knows how much a kid will improve before he arrives on campus, or will just fit into a niche within with what the other players bring to team play. Someone's already brought up the CJ Fair frosh example. I'll go back further---to Lawrence Moten (remember, I'm an old dude) . While highly recruited, I recall he was not a first-team Mickey D'er (but I do recall seeing him play in a televised Capital District (D.C.) All-Star game. Reaction to him in that game by many SU fans was that he was a thin, indescribable, unathletic-looking tweener, that he seemed a bit lost on the court (except for the garbage points he seemed to always cash in), and that he would be hard pressed to see significant court time as a frosh. The first-game (vs. Cornell) starters his freshman year (1991-92) were D. Johnson, Hopkins, Autry, Siock, and Michael Edwards. Moten played 17 minutes in that first game, and, as was his rep, scrounged 10 "garbage" points. Well, he didn't start in the next game either, but he did by the third game, and wound up averaging 18 ppg that season. And became the Big East's all time leading scorer by the time he left...

I don't think anyone here is selling Grant short. He looks like he will be a fantastic player for us one day. But much like MCW last season, he will be stepping into a situation where there are experienced and very skilled players in front of him. And as in MCW's situation, it looks like the playing time will open up for Grant in his sophomore year.

All of this is simply a function of the great recruiting classes JB has landed recently. I have no doubt MCW and Grant could have or would have started as freshmen and had an immediate impact on many SU teams of the past.

 

[SoBristol]

Unless there's injury/suspension/etc, at best Grant will get what MCW got this year PT-wise; he's gonna be 4th on the depth chart at F, the opportunities are just going to dwindle as the season goes on.

No offense, but this logic (what happened for MCW at guard will happen for Grant at forward) is often wrong. Maybe not -- the situations are different.
One of those forwards (Rak) is likely to play center some of the time. Southerland has limitations on the perimeter (good spot up shooter, but what else?). The forward pairings may or may not work effectively.
Grant has a path to earn minutes. Depends, obviously, on how he plays and develops vs whether James can elevate his game.

 

[IthacaMatt]

Looks like Grant has more upside than both CJ/Dirty and I believe he will be a better all-around player than both. Grant will have a HUGE junior year.

Grant could be the next John Wallace. That's how I see his game - more complete than either Dirty or CJ, but he needs a little time to adjust to the physicality of the game.

 

[MyMeloMyMan]

If you don't think Southerland's handle is that bad, I'm just not sure what you've been watching.

Of course, we had people on this board saying during the fall that Joseph had a "great" handle, so who knows what some people use to measure that skill by. I'm assuming they mean in comparison to a drunk giraffe.

Are you trying to tell me you weren't spellbound by KJO's between the legs dribble, fake jab steps in the NCAA's?? He dribbled BETWEEN HIS LEGS multiple times.

 

[IthacaMatt]

No offense, but this logic (what happened for MCW at guard will happen for Grant at forward) is often wrong. Maybe not -- the situations are different.
One of those forwards (Rak) is likely to play center some of the time. Southerland has limitations on the perimeter (good spot up shooter, but what else?). The forward pairings may or may not work effectively.
Grant has a path to earn minutes. Depends, obviously, on how he plays and develops vs whether James can elevate his game.

If Rak is our primary center this year, as some people are suggesting, then we aren't going to be a legit title contender. He's just too small. He rebounds well, but his position defense is still weak. He only goes about 225-230. He will have to guard guys 40 pounds heavier in the post - guys like Coleman. You saw that he couldn't handle Sullinger; we needed Keita for his height to disrupt him.

Our best shot next year is if Coleman is good enough to start, and Rak can play like Rick Jackson, swinging between the 4 and the 5. I don't really want to have to exclusively rely on 3 "finesse" type of forwards (CJ, Dirty and Grant) because Christmas is spending all his time at center.

We need a forward who can defend against physical guys and rebound. CJ can rebound well enough, but he's not that big to pinch down on another team's PF to keep him off the offensive board or guard near the rim.

 

[Jasoncuse]

I think Grant has a great chance to have a Damone Brown like career, or a little better. I fully expect his contribution as a freshman to be similar (but better) than Brown's freshman year. He won't play a ton and probably isn't physically strong enough to get minutes in the BE, but he'll flash his athleticism while out there and show he's going to be a good one.

 

[IthacaMatt]

If anybody knew that BMK was going to have a better freshman year than Fab, then I need to holla at them to help me pick these lotto numbers lol.

Well, to be fair, Baye played 2 years at Oak Hill, which is almost like playing for a JUCO team in terms of talent level and opposition. He was going to be fundamentally sound. If everyone knew that Fab was going to be so out of shape, then it wasn't much of a long shot to say that Keita would be a contributor. Keita knows how to play. He practiced against Tiny Gallon at Oak Hill, right ?

 

[garnermike]

I don't think anyone here is selling Grant short. He looks like he will be a fantastic player for us one day. But much like MCW last season, he will be stepping into a situation where there are experienced and very skilled players in front of him. And as in MCW's situation, it looks like the playing time will open up for Grant in his sophomore year.

All of this is simply a function of the great recruiting classes JB has landed recently. I have no doubt MCW and Grant could have or would have started as freshmen and had an immediate impact on many SU teams of the past.

Well, here's a list of some comments made in this thread re: JG:

"there won't be too many minutes available for Grant next season"
"it is likely he is going to have to wait his turn"
"I don't think he could contribute right away though"
"he's not going to leapfrog anyone this year"
"at best Grant will get what MCW got this year"
"Grant will be this years MCW"
"Grant is going to be buried on the bench behind James and Fair."

I'm just saying ... what if he surprises by being better than anyone now thinks, maybe because of how much better he gets over the summer, or because he shows something, some "sixth sense," like Moten did, when he's on the court (and not in a ridiculous a HS all-star game)? Wes Johnson was heavily recruited, showed solid play @ Iowa State, gets injured, transfers, and then gets to SU, improves immensely during his sit-out year, surprises most everyone, and becomes a lottery pick.

I prefer to have the highest great hopes (ok, some would call them fantasies) for any newbie SU brings in...

 

[stuckinbig11]

I predict that Southerland will blow up next year.

 

[IthacaMatt]

I think Grant has a great chance to have a Damone Brown like career, or a little better. I fully expect his contribution as a freshman to be similar (but better) than Brown's freshman year. He won't play a ton and probably isn't physically strong enough to get minutes in the BE, but he'll flash his athleticism while out there and show he's going to be a good one.

He's going to be better than Damone Brown. For starters, he already has 3 point range (although he needs a little time getting off his shot), and he is already a better shot blocker than Damone. DB was a very solid player for us, and blossomed his senior year with Allen Griffin, but Grant will be better than that, IMO.

 

[IthacaMatt]

I predict that Southerland will blow up next year.

If he does, we'll be very good.

 

[NineOneSeven]

6'5 Carter-Williams
6'8 Southerland
6'8 Grant
6'8 Fair
6'9 Christmas

Talk about an athletic lineup

We would see Triche at power forward before we see Southerland at the two guard, and since Triche will never be at PF, well, you see my point.

 

[jdubs30]

If Rak is our primary center this year, as some people are suggesting, then we aren't going to be a legit title contender. He's just too small. He rebounds well, but his position defense is still weak. He only goes about 225-230. He will have to guard guys 40 pounds heavier in the post - guys like Coleman. You saw that he couldn't handle Sullinger; we needed Keita for his height to disrupt him.

Our best shot next year is if Coleman is good enough to start, and Rak can play like Rick Jackson, swinging between the 4 and the 5. I don't really want to have to exclusively rely on 3 "finesse" type of forwards (CJ, Dirty and Grant) because Christmas is spending all his time at center.

We need a forward who can defend against physical guys and rebound. CJ can rebound well enough, but he's not that big to pinch down on another team's PF to keep him off the offensive board or guard near the rim.

I see what you're saying, but we won't see many C's like Sullinger next year. Look at the Big East even; Adams (Pitt), Dieng, Cooley, then ? I'm sure there's guys slipping my mind, but it won't be exactly murders row. You see a lot more C across the country that are tall and lanky than built like Sullnger/Coleman.

 

[Cuse_1999]

If JS can develop just an adequate handle, it's not a stretch to think he could lead us in scoring. JB will run sets for him. Double screens etc... We know he can shoot. He becomes very difficult to guard if he can just learn to dribble a little. People will be closing out on him and if can just take a few dribbles to free himself he'll have open 15 footers all day.

He's a matchup nightmare. He can shoot over most 3's in college. When he's in at 4, he is way more athletic than most 4's guarding him. The problem so far is he can't use his athleticism advantage over the 4's because he can't dribble.

I think he blows up big time if he puts the time in this summer to learn to dribble