Dirty vs Grant

[jdubs30]

If JS can develop just an adequate handle, it's not a stretch to think he could lead us in scoring. JB will run sets for him. Double screens etc... We know he can shoot. He becomes very difficult to guard if he can just learn to dribble a little. People will be closing out on him and if can just take a few dribbles to free himself he'll have open 15 footers all day.

He's a matchup nightmare. He can shoot over most 3's in college. When he's in at 4, he is way more athletic than most 4's guarding him. The problem so far is he can't use his athleticism advantage over the 4's because he can't dribble.

I think he blows up big time if he puts the time in this summer to learn to dribble

Good post. But I think at this point in your career you can either dribble or you can't, it's hard to "learn".

 

[PauliePeppas]

If dirty really Became consistent from three and improve his andle a tad he should get drafted, he could be a wayyy more athletic novak...same size and attributes novak is obviously the better s hooter by far but southy could translate to the league with a big year

 

[newmexicuse]

Let me be the first to suggest that JB is purposely not playing Grant because he doesn't want him going pro.
Grant has the most pro potential out of the two and you don't sit those guys without a reason. And I don't care about the (insert insanely good record) because they could have gotten that with Grant in there too.

Sorry, this is a ridiculous idea. If Grant was that good out of the gate, JB would be playing him. IMHO, one of JB's biggest weaknesses is that he coaches too much to win each & every game & that as a result sometimes he doesn't see the bigger picture (short benches, no secondary D, limited minutes for some players, etc). Grant may have more long term pro potential, but he will need a few years. He ain't a one & done level talent & he ain't likely to be better as a frosh than Dirty will be as a senior.

 

[jdubs30]

Let me be the first to suggest that JB is purposely not playing Grant because he doesn't want him going pro.
Grant has the most pro potential out of the two and you don't sit those guys without a reason. And I don't care about the (insert insanely good record) because they could have gotten that with Grant in there too.

I doubt this has ever happened at any school ever.

Benching a kid because you don't want him to go pro? Really?

 

[br801]

Let me be the first to suggest that JB is purposely not playing Grant because he doesn't want him going pro.
Grant has the most pro potential out of the two and you don't sit those guys without a reason. And I don't care about the (insert insanely good record) because they could have gotten that with Grant in there too.

You've left me no choice but to send you to your room. I want you to think carefully about what you've done to this thread.

 

[EastCoast2]

You've left me no choice but to send you to your room. I want you to think carefully about what you've done to this thread.

lmao

 

[MyMeloMyMan]

I predict that Southerland will blow up next year.

With such a limited handle.. it seems hard that he could really blow up. Teams are going to realize you just get up and guard him and dare him to put the ball on the floor. He isn't going to be able to lurk in the corner with no attention paid to him anymore.

 

[jdubs30]

With such a limited handle.. it seems hard that he could really blow up. Teams are going to realize you just get up and guard him and dare him to put the ball on the floor. He isn't going to be able to lurk in the corner with no attention paid to him anymore.

Very true. I think MCW will be a much better facilitator than Scoop was and will get players shots in better places/in rhythm. However, you're right that Southerland won't be ignored by Ds anymore, he started to make a name for himself in the tournament and losing Scoop/Kris/Dion will make the D pay way more attention to Triche/Southerland/CJ.

Interesting to think of it this way:
Defenses were keyed into Scoop/Kris/Dion last year (and Triche to some extent) which allowed Southerland/CJ/Melo to kinda go around unnoticed.
This year defenses will be on MCW/Triche/Southerland/CJ; are the secondary guys (Coleman/Cooney/Rak) as good offensively as the secondary guys last year? Probably not.

MCW, Southerland and Coleman/Rak will decide how good we are this year; I believe we know what we'll get from Triche and Fair. It'd be awesome if Coleman OR Rak could become a force offensively.

 

[bnoro]

I'm proud to say I was very high on CJ out of high school and thought he could contribute immediately.

Not that ridiculous of a statement, considering CJ was very highly recruited until he tore his ACL his junior season. A lot of schools cooled on him because of this but after his recovery it was pretty clear he would be one to watch.

 

[bnoro]

Let me be the first to suggest that JB is purposely not playing Grant because he doesn't want him going pro.
Grant has the most pro potential out of the two and you don't sit those guys without a reason. And I don't care about the (insert insanely good record) because they could have gotten that with Grant in there too.

Everyone mad about this post needs to read AlbanyCuse's MCW thread. That's what this poster was making fun of. While I don't agree with Albany, this was somewhat uncalled for.

 

[Sgt Cuse]

I doubt this has ever happened at any school ever.

Benching a kid because you don't want him to go pro? Really?

JDubs and NewMexicuse - respected posters - I guess I've got some explaining to do.

I mentioned this because this is precisely what was theorized in another thread on MCW by albanycuse. That MCW was not played by JB to keep him out of the pros (I swear albanycuse must have lost a bet to BlueCurtain).

In any event, my post was meant as a joke.

Come on - even if you didn't catch the other thread, the comment - "insert insanely good record" should have been a clue.

 

[EastCoast2]

Not that ridiculous of a statement, considering CJ was very highly recruited until he tore his ACL his junior season. A lot of schools cooled on him because of this but after his recovery it was pretty clear he would be one to watch.

Shhhh, I'm a recruiting guru! I had sources tell me about Fair

 

[Francis03]

Well, to be fair, Baye played 2 years at Oak Hill, which is almost like playing for a JUCO team in terms of talent level and opposition. He was going to be fundamentally sound. If everyone knew that Fab was going to be so out of shape, then it wasn't much of a long shot to say that Keita would be a contributor. Keita knows how to play. He practiced against Tiny Gallon at Oak Hill, right ?

Tiny Gallon yikes!

 

[EastCoast2]

Tiny Gallon yikes!

View attachment 785

Thumb Man

 

[Francis03]

Thumb Man

I didn't know Butterbean had a son lol

 

[EastCoast2]

I didn't know Butterbean had a son lol

 

[br801]

This thread has really taken some unexpected turns. I'd like to nominate it for a "Thread of the Month" award.

 

[General20]

Am I the only person who thinks Southerland is going to have a huge year next year?

It honestly would not surprise me in the slightest if he lead the team in scoring. Southerland is a great shooter, but needed to work hard to get strong enough to defend and rebound at a Big East level. I think that affected his shot. Now that his defense and rebounding is where it needs to be he can focus more on his shot which I think will be deadly next year.

Grant is everything you could ask for in a Syracuse prospect physically. He is tall enough and athletic enough to jump center at the beginning of games and skilled enough to break a press with his handle. But at this point he is more of a jack of all trades, and master of none. Nothing about his game is ready to excel in the Big East right now, but give him some time and he will be a fantastic player.

 

[orangefan13]

CJ and James bring basketball IQ. And they have plenty of it.

One of the biggest question marks probably the biggest in next years offense will be who is the isolation scorers.
Thats where there is a opening for everybody on this team outside of MCW who has already clinched it
We already know we are returning CJ, James, Triche, and Cooney as complimentary scorers to join Dajuan so we have the firepower but but we absolutely need the iso.

We can all think back to bad scoop, Joseph, Devendorf, Josh Wright, Paul Harris(at times).
They were all solid players but either had bad weaknesses or like Devendorf were forcing the drive or pass to much.
Those examples are sound proof that JB is always going to force a extra isolation player. Its just built in his offensive system. There is no way he goes with less then three isolation players next year and hes going to look for a 4th count on it.

.

 

[orangefan13]

in 09-10 we had
AO, Wes, KJO really good isolatoin players and at times Rautins and Scoop to run iso.
Last year we ran KJO, Scoop, and Dion in iso with Fair as a 4th runner up.
Thats what held those teams together.


We know MCW will be a isolation player.After that its a open door.

Where James and CJ have a edge is...

1. Half of me feels Triche is better off the ball. He is probbaly our most efficient scorer returning off the ball and JB knows it. Triche as a senior will get to show he can be a isolation guy in big games for scouts like he did his sophmore season. But, I see him taking a step back for whats best for the team most of the time.

2. Dajuan. Hes got to prove he can recover to the baseline and play defesne while doing so. Hes got to show he can rebound or atleast try to(not just boxout or everyone and their grandma will try to grab offensive boards against us and he won't be in the game). Hes got to show he can stay out of foul trouble. And hes got to show he can score through double teams from weakside help if hes going to be that guy.
Hes still just a freshmen and might be more of a 3rd 4th type of isolation guy instead.

3. I think Rak has a chance to show alittle bit of isolation similar to CJ's freshmen year. Despite what people think hes got solid strength in getting positioning. its all about catching a pass and making a quick aggressive move for his build. I don't see him as a AO slow motion isolation scorer but a violent rim attacker next year.
I am very doubfull Keita will show any isolation outside of the occasional slip behind his man.

4. Cooney could surprise and prove to be a solid iso threat possibly.

5. Grant if he does all the other things well will have a shot to be that guy.

Thats where CJ and James come in.
CJ is so smooth all over the floor. James is so intimidating and athletic. If James starts knocking down shots they could start falling with a hand in his face, and before you know it he could be posting up and knocking down midrange ones and physical layups to the rim.
Or he might post up first and work his way outside more this year when the outside ones are just missing :noidea:.

I still like going with James or CJ getting some minutes at the two immedietly to start the year. Triche and Cooney are going to get winded there will be the pressure of MCW or another guard getting into foul trouble. Its going to hinder our guards play in the first half especially. And on both sides of the floor. CJ and James have the midrange post up jumper that Mookie won't bring. Having a 4th guard helps bigtime on Offense and Defense. It lets players play their heart out instead of conserving for the end. Its vastly underated

 

[Garbs]

Let's play Keita at the point too don't want MCW getting too tired

 

[mark79]

Over the wknd, I caught a few mins of that replay all-star game and thanks to the magic of dvr, watched just about all of Grant and it only took about 10 mins of real time. Any who, Grant reminded me of two people - Damone Brown and John Wallace. He appears to be way ahead of Damone at this point and has a similar game to John (again, small sample size here). If he has JW's instincts for the game, then look out. This tells how far we've come recruiting because for the previous decade or so, he'd be getting a lot of attention as a star.

If Rak and DC are around for 13-14, then a frontline of a senior Fair, jun Rak, and sophs DC and Grant will be fantastic, Billy O/DC-like. With Carter-Will-Cooney, we'll start #1 in 13. Next year, I'm still confident of a good run but I think the years of top-notch recruiting has not paid off yet- it starts this year and hits a zenith in 13-14 (and hopefully continues...).

Here's another comparison to those of you old enough to remember. Grant reminds me of a better built and more athletic Louis Orr.

 

[mark79]

in 09-10 we had
AO, Wes, KJO really good isolatoin players and at times Rautins and Scoop to run iso.
Last year we ran KJO, Scoop, and Dion in iso with Fair as a 4th runner up.
Thats what held those teams together.


We know MCW will be a isolation player.After that its a open door.

Where James and CJ have a edge is...

1. Half of me feels Triche is better off the ball. He is probbaly our most efficient scorer returning off the ball and JB knows it. Triche as a senior will get to show he can be a isolation guy in big games for scouts like he did his sophmore season. But, I see him taking a step back for whats best for the team most of the time.

2. Dajuan. Hes got to prove he can recover to the baseline and play defesne while doing so. Hes got to show he can rebound or atleast try to(not just boxout or everyone and their grandma will try to grab offensive boards against us and he won't be in the game). Hes got to show he can stay out of foul trouble. And hes got to show he can score through double teams from weakside help if hes going to be that guy.
Hes still just a freshmen and might be more of a 3rd 4th type of isolation guy instead.

3. I think Rak has a chance to show alittle bit of isolation similar to CJ's freshmen year. Despite what people think hes got solid strength in getting positioning. its all about catching a pass and making a quick aggressive move for his build. I don't see him as a AO slow motion isolation scorer but a violent rim attacker next year.
I am very doubfull Keita will show any isolation outside of the occasional slip behind his man.

4. Cooney could surprise and prove to be a solid iso threat possibly.

5. Grant if he does all the other things well will have a shot to be that guy.

Thats where CJ and James come in.
CJ is so smooth all over the floor. James is so intimidating and athletic. If James starts knocking down shots they could start falling with a hand in his face, and before you know it he could be posting up and knocking down midrange ones and physical layups to the rim.
Or he might post up first and work his way outside more this year when the outside ones are just missing :noidea:.

I still like going with James or CJ getting some minutes at the two immedietly to start the year. Triche and Cooney are going to get winded there will be the pressure of MCW or another guard getting into foul trouble. Its going to hinder our guards play in the first half especially. And on both sides of the floor. CJ and James have the midrange post up jumper that Mookie won't bring. Having a 4th guard helps bigtime on Offense and Defense. It lets players play their heart out instead of conserving for the end. Its vastly underated

It's not out of the realm of possibility that CJ could become a dependable and oft-used isolation player. He's quick and a difficult matchup off the dribble and he has increasingly shown the ability to penetrate and hit the pull-up or floater. Would love to see some of that next year. Imagine if he could also dish to a wide open BT, JS or
Cooney. Or dump to DC or Rok. Yowsah!!'

 

[stuckinbig11]

With such a limited handle.. it seems hard that he could really blow up. Teams are going to realize you just get up and guard him and dare him to put the ball on the floor. He isn't going to be able to lurk in the corner with no attention paid to him anymore.

How much handle did Hak have? What about D. Nichols?

 

[senorpalmer]

No offense, but this logic (what happened for MCW at guard will happen for Grant at forward) is often wrong. Maybe not -- the situations are different.
One of those forwards (Rak) is likely to play center some of the time. Southerland has limitations on the perimeter (good spot up shooter, but what else?). The forward pairings may or may not work effectively.
Grant has a path to earn minutes. Depends, obviously, on how he plays and develops vs whether James can elevate his game.

I did say "at best"...Grant could end up in a lesser role. Fair could easily own the 3 this year (his more natural position) to the tune of 30+ MPG. Southerland was a regular for a 1 seed this past year, his minutes will increase to some degree next year with Joseph gone. What happens in the middle may end up dictating what if any role Grant plays. Rak is gonna get some forward time, though if Coleman and Keita can't hold down center on their own, Rak may have to be in the mix. This is the path that Grant could have to PT as there in theory could then be forward minutes available. On the other hand, if Coleman and Keita can eat up 35 MPG or more between them (my bet is they can), that path to minutes gets a lot slimmer for Grant. What I am confident of is that we won't see 6 frontcourt guys (Coleman, Keita, Rak, Fair, Southerland, Grant) all playing significant minutes come February 1.