Does playing 100% zone defense help or hurt recruiting?

[AlpharettaCuse]

I'm not the one making that argument. You are the one implying that had we not been playing 100% zone, we don't make it to the final four, etc. Maybe we don't, but you do not know with any degree of certainty that we don't get there if we played man, in any capacity. It's pure speculation on your behalf.

Of course it's speculation, but i think it's fairly obvious we don't. The zone was the difference for us both years. Again, I don't need to prove it.

 

[orangecuse]

Of course it's speculation, but i think it's fairly obvious

 

[AlpharettaCuse]

That's funny.

 

[tbonezone]

If Arinze didn't get hurt and if the NCAA didn't deprive Fab (MHRIP) of his one chance in life to achieve something, I think those could easily be 2 more. After they sidelined Fab, the team was still so potent that they, the NCAA, had to resort to having the refs foul our whole team out against OSU. In addition the sanctions are meant to diminish the program and they did to some degree. I can't understand why certain fans won't give their full support to JB's final run as a coach. It is almost like they want to finish off where the NCAA left off from. He can easily win multiple NC's between now and when he retires, IMHO.

if you want to play the "what if so and so game " then also subtract our 2 low seed final four runs cuz the favorites always win. the fab and arinze talk is nonsense. upsets happen all the time. that's what makes march magic. please not one more "if only" post. we got beat by richmond and navy !

 

[CousCuse]

W

if you want to play the "what if so and so game " then also subtract our 2 low seed final four runs cuz the favorites always win. the fab and arinze talk is nonsense. upsets happen all the time. that's what makes march magic. please not one more "if only" post. we got beat by richmond and navy !

We got beat by Richmond and Navy a long time ago, so long that it is not relevant. The Fab year we lost in the Elite 8. The Arinze team was one of our best ever. But I get your real point that you want to run Boeheim out because you believe he is a poor coach, or we could get a better coach. I have the opposite narrative, that he is going to finish on top and any great players in the country would be remiss to not be part of it.

 

[moqui]

We all agree that the zone helps us win some games. Everyone but you agrees that the zone is hurting our recruiting.

JB has a distinct style he wants his teams to play, and he identifies the types of players that he needs to play it most effectively. that style rules certain players out, and other players rule themselves out because they don't want to play it, but even in the current downturn, JB has been able to identify, land and develop the type of players he wants, even when he loses out on certain particular ones.

the zone does not hurt SU hoops recruiting; it defines it

those of you who want a different type of player should have been rooting for a different team the last 2 decades, as well as for the next few years.

 

[CousCuse]

JB has a distinct style he wants his teams to play, and he identifies the types of players that he needs to play it most effectively. that style rules certain players out, and other players rule themselves out because they don't want to play it, but even in the current downturn, JB has been able to identify, land and develop the type of players he wants, even when he loses out on certain particular ones.

the zone does not hurt SU hoops recruiting; it defines it

those of you who want a different type of player should have been rooting for a different team the last 2 decades, as well as for the next few years.

At least the next 5 years.

 

[AlpharettaCuse]

if you want to play the "what if so and so game " then also subtract our 2 low seed final four runs cuz the favorites always win. the fab and arinze talk is nonsense. upsets happen all the time. that's what makes march magic. please not one more "if only" post. we got beat by richmond and navy !

If only Keith Smart was an inch off the the left...

;-)

 

[AlaskaSU]

W

We got beat by Richmond and Navy a long time ago, so long that it is not relevant. The Fab year we lost in the Elite 8. The Arinze team was one of our best ever. But I get your real point that you want to run Boeheim out because you believe he is a poor coach, or we could get a better coach. I have the opposite narrative, that he is going to finish on top and any great players in the country would be remiss to not be part of it.

Unfortunately, those losses are still relevant to me. The pain has not left.

 

[CousCuse]

Unfortunately, those losses are still relevant to me. The pain has not left.

I feel you. Duke lost to Lehigh, Kansas lost to Bucknell. The real thing of importance here is the team is off sanctions, a great new/old assistant has come on and I believe all three guys will be on the same page and Boeheim still has a lot of fire left. It seems to me the height of poor fanhood to try in someway to undermine the Great coach who has accomplished so much for the Orange as he gives his last push.

 

[HOFCeluck]

*eats his pop corn*

 

[Zelda Zonk]

Nutty logic.
You can't say we wouldn't have made certain final fours with a different defensive scheme. You can't say we would have made other final fours with a different defensive scheme.

With the scheme come certain players. We probably wouldn't have those same players if we were more of a m2m team. Some people seem to only be able to imagine things worse. Which is ironic, since those are the 'optimists.' And the 'doom and gloomers' are the ones who seem to expect more... I'm closer to the latter camp than the former, and i can (cue the trumpets and harps) imagine a program that plays mostly m2m, and attracts even higher-level recruits than we've been getting, and routinely wins league tournament games, and routinely gets top 3 NCAA seeds, and reaches a few more Final Fours.

Secondly, our two final fours in the past three years — they were wonderful. Fantastic. But, how we got there, that's not a formula for success or sustainability. Not going to call anything 'luck,' but you cannot build and maintain a program that needs 'good fortune' just to get into the tournament, and then hope for a favorably unfolding draw.

It doesn't matter what Arizona and Kansas have done. The only thing you can do is put yourself in the best situation to win, and then the results 'happen.' Kansas and Arizona have been better teams than we have. We might have an even record against Duke, but that doesn't mean we've been as good as them. It's kinda delusional to think otherwise. Better teams do well over the course of a season, and the league standings are a pretty good reflection of what you are.

 

[AlpharettaCuse]

Nutty logic.
You can't say we wouldn't have made certain final fours with a different defensive scheme. You can't say we would have made other final fours with a different defensive scheme.

With the scheme come certain players. We probably wouldn't have those same players if we were more of a m2m team. Some people seem to only be able to imagine things worse. Which is ironic, since those are the 'optimists.' And the 'doom and gloomers' are the ones who seem to expect more... I'm closer to the latter camp than the former, and i can (cue the trumpets and harps) imagine a program that plays mostly m2m, and attracts even higher-level recruits than we've been getting, and routinely wins league tournament games, and routinely gets top 3 NCAA seeds, and reaches a few more Final Fours.

Secondly, our two final fours in the past three years — they were wonderful. Fantastic. But, how we got there, that's not a formula for success or sustainability. Not going to call anything 'luck,' but you cannot build and maintain a program that needs 'good fortune' just to get into the tournament, and then hope for a favorably unfolding draw.

It doesn't matter what Arizona and Kansas have done. The only thing you can do is put yourself in the best situation to win, and then the results 'happen.' Kansas and Arizona have been better teams than we have. We might have an even record against Duke, but that doesn't mean we've been as good as them. It's kinda delusional to think otherwise. Better teams do well over the course of a season, and the league standings are a pretty good reflection of what you are.

Sure I can. I said it's highly unlikely we would have made the FF either year playing man to man, and I'm basing that off the fact those teams were not very good offensive teams, yet fantastic on defense. I think you're delusional if you think we would have playing man. Our zone was absolutely an enormous factor in both FF runs, without question, and an enormous factor in our title run.

And it does matter what other teams do. That's how we measure ourselves-against other teams. The fact we've been to 2 FF's in 5 years despite not having talent close to a Kansas or Arizona tells me we're doing well. It's not easy getting to a FF. Ask Kansas and Arizona. Kansas and Arizona have been better in the regular season than us, so what? I'll take Final Four runs over regular season wins. I bet they would too. With all that talent and neither team can make a run? Seems like our zone does make a difference in the NCAA's. More please!

If you want man to man, go root for Uconn. We play zone at Syracuse.

 

[Zelda Zonk]

Sure I can. I said it's highly unlikely we would have made the FF either year playing man to man, and I'm basing that off the fact those teams were not very good offensive teams, yet fantastic on defense. I think you're delusional if you think we would have playing man. Our zone was absolutely an enormous factor in both FF runs, without question, and an enormous factor in our title run.

And it does matter what other teams do. That's how we measure ourselves-against other teams. The fact we've been to 2 FF's in 5 years despite not having talent close to a Kansas or Arizona tells me we're doing well. It's not easy getting to a FF. Ask Kansas and Arizona. Kansas and Arizona have been better in the regular season than us, so what? I'll take Final Four runs over regular season wins. I bet they would too. With all that talent and neither team can make a run? Seems like our zone does make a difference in the NCAA's. More please!

If you want man to man, go root for Uconn. We play zone at Syracuse.

We're talking about two different things. I'm not saying we would have made the last FF by playing M2M. In fact, i've said a brazillian times that we suck at M2M over the past 10 years. I'm saying that if we had remained a primarily M2M team, as in pre-96 or whenever 'the change' happened, it's as likely as not that we would have made two FFs in that span of time. Because the players we would have signed would not be the same ones that either succeeded or failed in the zone. Because they would be different players, playing a different style.

Secondly, i maintain that making a FF from the bubble is not a sustainable strategy. You seem to be suggesting that doing whatever we're doing lately, barely scraping in, or being left out, is a better 'way to live' than finishing in the top 10, winning your conference tournament and getting a top 3 seed. In your world where you speak in terms of what is "highly unlikely," it's always going to be more "highly unlikely" that you make a Final Four from the bubble than from a 2 seed. And that's all you can do — put your team in the best situation to succeed. The bubble is not that situation, regardless of the "unlikely" outcomes we've recently witnessed.

No one is denying our zone can make a difference in the NCAAs. But, if it lets you down in the regular season and you don't make the NCAAs, or if it limits the talent you can sign and put on the floor, which then lets you down in the regular season and then you don't make the NCAAs, then it has made a negative difference. You're looking at all this on a micro level. 'We have these 10 players this particular year. They played zone this particular year. This was the result this particular year. The result was better than Kansas/Arizona this year.' Sort of a 'small view.'

I'll stick with syracuse, thank you. I have a 30 year history with SU. I studied there, spent my money there. Went to every home game there. Most BET MSG games, etc. It's a part of me and vice versa. And we didn't play all zone when i started, so that's not the identity i 'have to' embrace. Sorry that my noncompliance bothers you. I find it kind of amazing that an adult can be 100% in agreement with everything that happens with a program... Sort of like you don't bother to think or examine, but whatever. This is a discussion forum. If you want 100% fealty, go post your own webpage. We discuss at syracusefan.

 

[HOFCeluck]

Sorry that my noncompliance bothers you. I find it kind of amazing that an adult can be 100% in agreement with everything that happens with a program... Sort of like you don't bother to think or examine, but whatever. This is a discussion forum. If you want 100% fealty, go post your own webpage. We discuss at syracusefan.

I wish I could make this my signature. It would save me a lot of time and bandwidth in discussions like this.

 

[Todoubled23]

We're talking about two different things. I'm not saying we would have made the last FF by playing M2M. In fact, i've said a brazillian times that we suck at M2M over the past 10 years. I'm saying that if we had remained a primarily M2M team, as in pre-96 or whenever 'the change' happened, it's as likely as not that we would have made two FFs in that span of time. Because the players we would have signed would not be the same ones that either succeeded or failed in the zone. Because they would be different players, playing a different style.

Secondly, i maintain that making a FF from the bubble is not a sustainable strategy. You seem to be suggesting that doing whatever we're doing lately, barely scraping in, or being left out, is a better 'way to live' than finishing in the top 10, winning your conference tournament and getting a top 3 seed. In your world where you speak in terms of what is "highly unlikely," it's always going to be more "highly unlikely" that you make a Final Four from the bubble than from a 2 seed. And that's all you can do — put your team in the best situation to succeed. The bubble is not that situation, regardless of the "unlikely" outcomes we've recently witnessed.

No one is denying our zone can make a difference in the NCAAs. But, if it lets you down in the regular season and you don't make the NCAAs, or if it limits the talent you can sign and put on the floor, which then lets you down in the regular season and then you don't make the NCAAs, then it has made a negative difference. You're looking at all this on a micro level. 'We have these 10 players this particular year. They played zone this particular year. This was the result this particular year. The result was better than Kansas/Arizona this year.' Sort of a 'small view.'

I'll stick with syracuse, thank you. I have a 30 year history with SU. I studied there, spent my money there. Went to every home game there. Most BET MSG games, etc. It's a part of me and vice versa. And we didn't play all zone when i started, so that's not the identity i 'have to' embrace. Sorry that my noncompliance bothers you. I find it kind of amazing that an adult can be 100% in agreement with everything that happens with a program... Sort of like you don't bother to think or examine, but whatever. This is a discussion forum. If you want 100% fealty, go post your own webpage. We discuss at syracusefan.

Play nice girls.

 

[AlpharettaCuse]

We're talking about two different things. I'm not saying we would have made the last FF by playing M2M. In fact, i've said a brazillian times that we suck at M2M over the past 10 years. I'm saying that if we had remained a primarily M2M team, as in pre-96 or whenever 'the change' happened, it's as likely as not that we would have made two FFs in that span of time. Because the players we would have signed would not be the same ones that either succeeded or failed in the zone. Because they would be different players, playing a different style.

How is it as likely exactly? Based on what? The one Final Four from 1987? I don't recall us having too much success playing man to man in the tournament, do you? We may not have made a single FF by staying with man. How many FF's with man? 1? 4, including a national title with zone? How did Syracuse do playing man to man in the NCAAT? Maybe we would have had another title or two playing 100% zone with those late 80's early 90's teams.

Secondly, i maintain that making a FF from the bubble is not a sustainable strategy. You seem to be suggesting that doing whatever we're doing lately, barely scraping in, or being left out, is a better 'way to live' than finishing in the top 10, winning your conference tournament and getting a top 3 seed. In your world where you speak in terms of what is "highly unlikely," it's always going to be more "highly unlikely" that you make a Final Four from the bubble than from a 2 seed. And that's all you can do — put your team in the best situation to succeed. The bubble is not that situation, regardless of the "unlikely" outcomes we've recently witnessed.

Im not suggesting that barely scraping is a sustainable strategy. Where are you getting that from? We've been down for a few years, which isn't good. Again, where is the evidence that our 100% zone is the cause of "scraping in"? Still making a final four despite not being a very good team speaks to the strength of our zone, especially in the tournament. It gives us the the best chance to win in March. We've seen that we can make a run with it even without top tier talent, which is often the case. I'm not sure why you think playing man to man would make recruiting so much better. How did we recruit from 1992 to 2002? We've recruited quite well while playing 100% zone, especially the last decade or so. We don't get top 10 kids. We didn't playing man and we don't now. If we do, it's rare, and likely has nothing to do with what defense we play.


No one is denying our zone can make a difference in the NCAAs. But, if it lets you down in the regular season and you don't make the NCAAs, or if it limits the talent you can sign and put on the floor, which then lets you down in the regular season and then you don't make the NCAAs, then it has made a negative difference. You're looking at all this on a micro level. 'We have these 10 players this particular year. They played zone this particular year. This was the result this particular year. The result was better than Kansas/Arizona this year.' Sort of a 'small view.'

Who said it was the zone letting us down in the regular season? Who told you our zone limits the talent we can sign? That's quite a leap in logic. Again, who have we lost playing zone 100%? Can you point to anything even remotely close to back this rediculous theory up? Talk about "small view".



I'll stick with syracuse, thank you. I have a 30 year history with SU. I studied there, spent my money there. Went to every home game there. Most BET MSG games, etc. It's a part of me and vice versa. And we didn't play all zone when i started, so that's not the identity i 'have to' embrace. Sorry that my noncompliance bothers you. I find it kind of amazing that an adult can be 100% in agreement with everything that happens with a program... Sort of like you don't bother to think or examine, but whatever. This is a discussion forum. If you want 100% fealty, go post your own webpage. We discuss at Syracuse fan

Great. Support away. Nobody said you or anyone else had be in 100% in agreement with everything that happens in a program. And you can discuss whatever you want. It's a forum. However, we play 100% zone here at Syracuse. Don't like it? Too bad. If you want man to man, too bad-you ain't getting it on Jb's watch. I don't really care what you want. So keep supporting our 100% zone (or don't) and multiple Final Fours. I certainly will.

 

[AlpharettaCuse]

I wish I could make this my signature. It would save me a lot of time and bandwidth in discussions like this.

It's almost like you wrote it. ;-)

 

[CousCuse]

Not only does Syracuse play zone, they have the all time master zone coach. A creator of zones within zones within zones. The high wizard of zones. The NCAA pubahs have know this for along time and set out to sabotage his career or else he would upset the hierarchy and and take their spot. They can not touch him now as he has outmaneuvered their attacks and will finish his coaching career with a vengeance.

 

[tee1222]

A creator of zones within zones within zones.

 

[sususpicious]

Although I didn't like the outcome, I couldn't help but smile a teeny bit after seeing that the U.S. U-19 team was upset by Canada last night, which of course played zone ... and it didn't bother me too much that Calipari was coaching the U.S. team.

 

[jordville]

Although I didn't like the outcome, I couldn't help but smile a teeny bit after seeing that the U.S. U-19 team was upset by Canada last night, which of course played zone ... and it didn't bother me too much that Calipari was coaching the U.S. team.

Here is a quote from his postgame presser...

“We got 30 offensive rebounds. We scored enough points to win,” said USA head coach John Calipari (Kentucky). “But then it came down to some breakdowns defensively, and the other thing was, RJ (Barrett) had it going. I told the team after the game, I needed to try some different things - go zone, trap pick and roll, trap him. I kind of rode it because I thought we would figure out something, and that is my mistake."

 

[orangecuse]

Not only does Syracuse play zone, they have the all time master zone coach. A creator of zones within zones within zones. The high wizard of zones. The NCAA pubahs have know this for along time and set out to sabotage his career or else he would upset the hierarchy and and take their spot. They can not touch him now as he has outmaneuvered their attacks and will finish his coaching career with a vengeance.

 

[ForeverOrange]

Here is a quote from his postgame presser...

“We got 30 offensive rebounds. We scored enough points to win,” said USA head coach John Calipari (Kentucky). “But then it came down to some breakdowns defensively, and the other thing was, RJ (Barrett) had it going. I told the team after the game, I needed to try some different things - go zone, trap pick and roll, trap him. I kind of rode it because I thought we would figure out something, and that is my mistake."

All that quote points out to me is that he was willing to realize that he needs to try some things and mix it up. Maybe something we should do sometimes.

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

Johnny Flynn and Quade Greene say "what"?