Don't you just love when the oldtimers Bitc# slap the | Page 2 | Syracusefan.com

Don't you just love when the oldtimers Bitc# slap the

Scooch

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But LeBron coming up with a Mt. Rushmore and the fact that one of them will need to come off to make room for him shows the brilliance, hip, and enthusiastic realism of the younger players? Oh Lord

Cheers,
Neil

People take this kind of thing wayyyyyyy too seriously.
 

Doc5120

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While I agree Russell is an all-time great, the reasoning of "he won 11 championships, so he's great" should not be the be all, end all of evaluating him as a player. Based on that logic alone, such legends as Tom "Satch" Sanders, Jim Loscutoff & Robert Horry are in the top 10 of all-time greats.
 

Briancuse

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I don't have any problem with what Bill said, but I do think Lebron is going to go down as an all time great.
 

moqui

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it is all perfectly Kuhnian - the old guard must inevitably make way for the new, but will not go down without a fight
 

omniorange

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People take this kind of thing wayyyyyyy too seriously.

Didn't prevent you from replying to the thread though, did it? Guess you are "people" too. ;)

Cheers,
Neil
 

omniorange

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it is all perfectly Kuhnian - the old guard must inevitably make way for the new, but will not go down without a fight

Exactly. It's called pride and it doesn't go away with age.

Cheers,
Neil
 

omniorange

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While I agree Russell is an all-time great, the reasoning of "he won 11 championships, so he's great" should not be the be all, end all of evaluating him as a player. Based on that logic alone, such legends as Tom "Satch" Sanders, Jim Loscutoff & Robert Horry are in the top 10 of all-time greats.

You missed the point of what he was saying, which was Mt. Rushmore glorifies individual glory whereas he was more interested in team glory since basketball is, after all, a team sport.

Cheers,
Neil
 
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Doc5120

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You missed the point of what he was saying, which was Mt. Rushmore glorifies individual glory whereas he was more interested in team glory since basketball is, after all, a team sport.

Cheers,
Neil

I was going off on a tangent. I agree with what you're saying, but I was making an alternate point only somewhat related to the debate of Bill Russell is the greatest because he has 11 rings. With only 8 teams in the league or whatever it was at the time, it was a lot easier to win titles. I find Jordan's 6 titles more impressive, and I'm no fan of MJ.
 

Scooch

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Didn't prevent you from replying to the thread though, did it? Guess you are "people" too. ;)

Cheers,
Neil

I was replying about the notion that its awesome when old folks smack down young folks. I hate that, actually. I could give a crap what Russell said or who Lebron has on some dopey Mt. Rushmore of basketball.
 

Sudano

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Its a contrived controversey to drive online hits, opinions, discussion and revenue. Doesn't Bill Russell contradict himself. Isn't being named to 'Mt. Rushmore' an individual 'honor' after saying 'Basketball is not for individual honors, but then he takes a dig at someone for not giving him that individual notoriety?
Shouldn't he have said instead that he shouldn't be on Mt. Rushmore because Basketball is a team game and having him being honored over all of his teammates doesn't honor the team game he so promotes?


“Hey, thank you for leaving me off your Mount Rushmore. I’m glad you did. Basketball is a team game, it’s not for individual honors. I won back-to-back state championships in high school, back-to-back NCAA championships in college. I won an NBA championship my first year in the league, an NBA championship in my last year, and nine in between. That, Mr. James, is etched in stone.”
 

IthacaMatt

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Don't think he played in college, and double and triple A don't play to win.

Does it really matter? I'm not discrediting Russell on what he accomplished I'm just saying he really shouldn't be offended that he was left off a list of 4. My point is rings have no baring on how great a player is/was. Elway was just as good at quarterback before he won. Reggie Miller was a hell of a player. Ewing was a hell of a player. Malone was a hell of a player. Are they any less great because they don't have a ring? Michael Jordan has just more than half of what Russell has, does that make him half as good? Garbage argument by Russell.


Yes, they are less great, because they weren't the best of their era. They weren't champions. Winning counts for something in my book. It's why we play the games.

Let me guess, you probably grew up where everyone on your Little League team got trophies at the end of the season, regardless of how the team did. I'm older than you, probably. When I grew up, winning meant not just something, it meant everything.
 

realorange

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This is little more than LBJ pounding his chest and looking for PR, which he seems to need more of all the time.
We have a Mt. Rushmore of basketball. It's called the Basketball Hall of Fame.
 

IthacaMatt

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A good Mt. Rushmore list should have one that doesn't belong like the real Mt. Rushmore.

Washington
Jefferson
T. Roosevelt
Lincoln

One of these things is not like the other.


Teddy Roosevelt's accomplishments are seemingly forgotten, but he was a damn good president. Fought big business and introduced anti-trust law to America, which indirectly led to the creation of the middle class. Outdoorsman, early environmentalist. Dedicated numerous national parks. He won the Nobel Peace Prize for negotiating the peace treaty between Japan and Russia in the war they fought. Helped fund the construction of the Panama Canal. He wrote 35 books and even offered to lead a regiment of US soldiers in WWI in his 5os.
 

realorange

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Yes, they are less great, because they weren't the best of their era. They weren't champions. Winning counts for something in my book. It's why we play the games.

Let me guess, you probably grew up where everyone on your Little League team got trophies at the end of the season, regardless of how the team did. I'm older than you, probably. When I grew up, winning meant not just something, it meant everything.
'Hear what you are saying Matt, but great players don't always have a good enough team to win a championship. One player can't do it by themselves.
 

IthacaMatt

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While I agree Russell is an all-time great, the reasoning of "he won 11 championships, so he's great" should not be the be all, end all of evaluating him as a player. Based on that logic alone, such legends as Tom "Satch" Sanders, Jim Loscutoff & Robert Horry are in the top 10 of all-time greats.


Except that those guys were not the defensive anchor and rebounding machine that provided the foundation for those championships. He AVERAGED 22.4 rebounds a game for his entire career. He also averaged 4.3 assists per game. How many centers have done that?
 

IthacaMatt

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'Hear what you are saying Matt, but great players don't always have a good enough team to win a championship. One player can't do it by themselves.


Ewing is a lesser player for his choking in clutch spots. Remember that lay-up that rimmed out against Indiana? That's Ewing's career in a nutshell.
 

IthacaMatt

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'Hear what you are saying Matt, but great players don't always have a good enough team to win a championship. One player can't do it by themselves.


Maybe so, but over an entire career, a great player finds the opportunity to win at least once. Even Michael Jordan didn't have the best supporting cast - just look at some of the players on his teams. Centers like Luc Longley and Bill Cartwright. It was him and Pippen and a rotating cast of characters. But mostly it was him.
 

Doc5120

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Except that those guys were not the defensive anchor and rebounding machine that provided the foundation for those championships. He AVERAGED 22.4 rebounds a game for his entire career. He also averaged 4.3 assists per game. How many centers have done that?

Not many. I said hes an all time great. But I dont think hes a top 5 guy.
 

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