Downward spiral

[CuseFaninVT]

Oh yeah?! Well I don’t believe Ben and Jerry’s ice cream is very good.

Me either

 

[Brooky03]

Me either

Damn. What else do you guys have that I can disparage?

Cows are dumb

 

[CuseFaninVT]

Damn. What else do you guys have that I can disparage?

Cows are dumb

Not a fan of their emissions either.

If you question our dominance with beer, then it’s on.

 

[Brooky03]

Not a fan of their emissions either.

If you question our dominance with beer, then it’s on.

I wouldn’t take it that far.

I know! The hipsters in Burlington are lame.


Take that

 

[Wrinkle]

Need the shooting more

I see Bell as a perfect 6th man in that scenario. Southerland role

 

[Willy75]

Yeah, the director of basketball operations just proactively took it upon himself to create a plagiarism scheme with the help of administrative staff.

Makes sense.

Should have gone the Carolina route and make academics totally optional.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

I wouldn’t take it that far.

I know! The hipsters in Burlington are lame.


Take that

That’s why I live in South Burlington

 

[Brooky03]

That’s why I live in South Burlington

Sounds suspiciously like something a hipster would say

 

[CuseFaninVT]

Sounds suspiciously like something a hipster would say

A couple years ago when I was sporting a beard and rocking skinny jeans, you’d have had a case. But I’m facial hair free and I’m rocking cords and cashmere today.

 

[HOFCeluck]

Yeah, the director of basketball operations just proactively took it upon himself to create a plagiarism scheme with the help of administrative staff.

Makes sense.

Boeheim is the CEO of the program but also is completely blameless for sanctions.

 

[Sherman20]

Mintz-Taylor-Bell-Brown-Hima

I don’t think that’s good enough. We need Jesse to come back and will need to hit the portal hard for a really good small forward who can shoot and attack off the bounce (unless this Adams kid picks Cuse and is somehow a stud and way underrated). If Jesse doesn’t come back, we’ll also need to hit the portal for a center.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

I don’t think that’s good enough. We need Jesse to come back and will need to hit the portal hard for a really good small forward who can shoot and attack off the bounce (unless this Adams kid picks Cuse and is somehow a stud and way underrated). If Jesse doesn’t come back, we’ll also need to hit the portal for a center.

I agree about Hima, but I was going with what we have.

 

[suttree]

Not a fan of their emissions either.

If you question our dominance with beer, then it’s on.

Just stopped by Hill Farmstead last weekend. Such good stuff.

Will you challenge me to a fist fight if I say that Focal Banger might be better than Heady Topper?

 

[Cusefan0307]

If Hima is the starting center next year we will suck again.

Bell needs to make major improvements at the 3 as well.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

Just stopped by Hill Farmstead last weekend. Such good stuff.

Will you challenge me to a fist fight if I say that Focal Banger might be better than Heady Topper?

No, I’d agree!

And you should have called me, but I was actually in Cali.

It’s weird to admit this, but I’ve never been to HF and think their beer is wildly overrated.

 

[suttree]

No, I’d agree!

And you should have called me, but I was actually in Cali.

It’s weird to admit this, but I’ve never been to HF and think their beer is wildly overrated.

Cali? I thought you only operated with those who'll send you to Hawaii.

I confess to a nostalgia factor interfering with a normal assessment of HF. I got a great buzz taking down some of their stuff (mostly Edward, I think) for the first time about five years ago, when I burned the better part of a week traveling to Burlington for a surprise party for a retiring mentor prof at UVM. It's so hard to get up there from the ATX (and my margins were nonexistent on this trip, which included eight hours driving to/from the base camp in Portland), but I will try to coordinate with you if I head up there again.

Cheers, man! Hope you & yours are doing great.

 

[Brooky03]

No, I’d agree!

And you should have called me, but I was actually in Cali.

It’s weird to admit this, but I’ve never been to HF and think their beer is wildly overrated.

I was in Burlington for a wedding a few years ago. When I made the obligatory Heady Topper run, I also picked up Sip of Sunshine. Loved both beers but loved Sip of Sunshine a little more.

 

[Orangezoo]

Realizing this isn't a beers thread but given the recent diversion make sure you guys put Endless Brewing on your list to try out if you are traveling through NEPA. Know the owner well and he has some really good options. Just got over there to get growlers refilled and he has some new flavors coming for spring and summer...

 

[SBU72]

I see a lot of posts refer to a 9 year downward spiral and I think it’s worth noting that, at minimum, those first 3 years should objectively not count against JB/the staff. This is operating on the premise that the NCAA sanctions were absurd and unjust. If you think the NCAA had a good point, I have no interest in entertaining or engaging in that argument.

The scholarship sanctions mattered and the recruiter sanctions mattered more. Those lasted through 2017 (2019 for the schollies). 10/11 vs 13 scholarship players is not a trivial difference. 2 vs 4 recruiters is a huge difference. The effects of the sanctions were tangible.

A harsh interpretation would put the 2017-18 season as the marker of the decline. So, 6 seasons. A lenient interpretation, since you don’t recover immediately after sanctions, would be the 2019-20 season. 4 seasons, coinciding with the Buddy Boeheim experience.

Because of the sanctions, we couldn’t carry full squads. Despite not using a deep bench, schools still need those developmental players and that depth for when unexpected departures happen. So, on top of getting less talented recruits because we couldn’t put recruiters on the road to show love and to scout, we had fewer of them. If somebody left early, we had nothing behind them and had to scramble for transfers or rely on freshman 3-4 stars to play big minutes. There was a razor thin margin of error and any recruiting miss was death. That’s hard to overcome for any staff.

I know this is taboo to talk about because we’re supposed to pretend the sanctions weren’t that big of a deal and they’re just an ‘excuse’ and didn’t have long-term effects, but that’s the way I see it. A decline is still a decline, but I think we’re talking about 4-6 years, not 9, which is more than a semantic difference.

What we are seeing with this class is what an improvement in depth can get you. Taylor and Brown look like they will be really solid contributors here for multiple years. Either or both could easily turn in to excellent starters (as I see it). Without the full arsenal of scholarships, they’re the types of players who might not have been here.

We still have issues. Guard depth is scary, especially with no 2023 recruits. Center is going to be a question mark, assuming Jesse is outta here, but at least we have Centers on the roster. The staff is far from absolved from responsibility.

Additional points: I think the Hopkins departure hurt a lot more than any of us realized at the time. I think the ACC during most of that 2017-2021 stretch was more difficult than the old Big East at its peak, so more losses would be expected.

Just had to get this off my chest. Carry on.

For a couple of weeks now I have been thinking about doing how all the old Big East teams are doing in the ACC compared to say the 5 years before that form of the BE brook up. None of them (SU, Pitt, ND, Louisville, BC, Miami and Virginia Tech) has consistently been in top third of the ACC. Top half has been a struggle. Some have done well/ok for a while but for over the last nine years most have struggled. To me joining the ACC has contributed as much to the struggles for not as JB has, as demonstrated by all the former BE teams. Sure there have been other factors the conference alone makes recruiting and playing very difficult.

One of these days I'll try and do the research.

 

[Orangezoo]

For a couple of weeks now I have been thinking about doing how all the old Big East teams are doing in the ACC compared to say the 5 years before that form of the BE brook up. None of them (SU, Pitt, ND, Louisville, BC, Miami and Virginia Tech) has consistently been in top third of the ACC. Top half has been a struggle. Some have done well/ok for a while but for over the last nine years most have struggled. To me joining the ACC has contributed as much to the struggles for not as JB has, as demonstrated by all the former BE teams. Sure there have been other factors the conference alone makes recruiting and playing very difficult.

One of these days I'll try and do the research.

Would be interesting to see. When you look at Pitt, Ville and ND I think timing has a lot to do with some of their struggles that would have manifested no matter what. Miami's had a nice stretch albeit in large part to a great coaching hire. VT has had some good hires as well and while not setting the world on fire they have had some nice seasons.

I think it's quite difficult to really correlate the conference move with program trajectory.

The game changing in terms of perimeter shooting, losing Hop, sanctions, NIL and JB holding on too long all play a role more than conference change I feel.

 

[DoctorBombay]

It makes a lot of sense. His job was to keep all of the players eligible pretty much. He took that beyond the level of involvement he was supposed to.

I work in an Internal Audit department. Employees doing things their boss did not tell them to do is borderline common.

The NCAA sees that as JB giving him a wink and a nod and whispering in his ear, “make sure all my players can play at any cost. Any cost!” in some dark alley. But we know that’s not how the real world works and the NCAA makes assumptions because they don’t have the evidence or a good way to get the evidence.

The standard is, was, and probably always will be " known or should've known".
Not always fair, but that's the standard. Ignorance is no excuse.

 

[Gotothehole]

You don’t get to choose what you’re responsible for when you’re responsible for everything

 

[BigNastyJon]

I was in Burlington for a wedding a few years ago. When I made the obligatory Heady Topper run, I also picked up Sip of Sunshine. Loved both beers but loved Sip of Sunshine a little more.

I don’t care if it’s not cool anymore - Sip of Sunshine is my favorite beer.

Also, in terms of grocery store ice cream, Ben and Jerry’s is hands down the best. Terrible for the waistline though.

 

[STEVEHOLT]

Two big and athletic guards up top is crucial. The zone as a concept still works, just needs the pieces. I’ll gladly take ugly offense for a smothering defense.

You know what else two big and athletic guards can do? Play man to man. Why pigeon hole your entire program into requiring highly specialized body types to play specific positions? We’re in a position-less basketball era.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

I don’t care if it’s not cool anymore - Sip of Sunshine is my favorite beer.

Also, in terms of grocery store ice cream, Ben and Jerry’s is hands down the best. Terrible for the waistline though.

Solid choice, but we don’t consider that a Vermont beer.