Downward spiral

[two3zone]

If Hima is the starting center next year we will suck again.

Bell needs to make major improvements at the 3 as well.

I don’t think there is a way we don’t suck next year. Unless someone has a leap and turns into Carmelo, or we bring in someone who has a Wes Johnson impact there isn’t much too get excited about.

This is a bad team and projected to lose three of its best players. I don’t think we’d be Louisville bad, but BC bad is would be on the table.

 

[Brooky03]

You know what else two big and athletic guards can do? Play man to man. Why pigeon hole your entire program into requiring highly specialized body types to play specific positions? We’re in a position-less basketball era.

Because when the zone has the pieces it tends to be elite. And that remains true in this era of basketball.

 

[STEVEHOLT]

Because when the zone has the pieces it tends to be elite. And that remains true in this era of basketball.

Haley’s comet is what you’re pining for

 

[OrangeDW]

For a couple of weeks now I have been thinking about doing how all the old Big East teams are doing in the ACC compared to say the 5 years before that form of the BE brook up. None of them (SU, Pitt, ND, Louisville, BC, Miami and Virginia Tech) has consistently been in top third of the ACC. Top half has been a struggle. Some have done well/ok for a while but for over the last nine years most have struggled. To me joining the ACC has contributed as much to the struggles for not as JB has, as demonstrated by all the former BE teams. Sure there have been other factors the conference alone makes recruiting and playing very difficult.

One of these days I'll try and do the research.

BC, Miami, and VT were rarely good in the Big East though. And ND was always middle of the pack.

Pitt has always been hit or miss. They were good the last 10 years of the Big East, but the 10 years before that they stunk.

Syracuse and Louisville….I think it’s the coaching situations.

 

[OrangeDW]

Haley’s comet is what you’re pining for

Need 2 6’5 guards with 7 foot wingspans who are athletic, can handle, pass, shoot, and defend. Need two 6’8-6’9 forwards with 7’5 wingspans who are athletic, can defend, run the floor and dunk, and at least one of them needs point forward skills and at least one of them needs to be able to shoot. And need a 7 foot center with an 8 foot wingspan who can run to the corners and block jump shots, defend the rim, defend the high post, catch the ball, dunk, set ball screens 25 feet from the hoop, and catch and finish on rim runs.

No big deal. Just get guys like that. That’s what I’d do.

 

[Orangezoo]

I don’t think there is a way we don’t suck next year. Unless someone has a leap and turns into Carmelo, or we bring in someone who has a Wes Johnson impact there isn’t much too get excited about.

This is a bad team and projected to lose three of its best players. I don’t think we’d be Louisville bad, but BC bad is would be on the table.

The BC analogy is a good one even in looking at where we landed last year and are today. BC has been a team that "looks better" based on competitive losses for a while now as they navigate through their season year in year out. It hasn't ever elevated past that.

You can spot development and improvements in a team during both losses and wins. That isn't disputable but there is a Fool's Gold in placing too much stock in playing better vs a good team but still losing. Miami, UNC and now UVA are games where I see so many comments pointing out growth and development in almost winning those games but failing to execute late. The Taylor interview with Devo was a good listen and he expressed positivity as well in terms of expecting that learning how to win those games is coming.

That last hurdle very well could be overcome - not gonna deny that for a second. It's also the hurdle the BC program has spent a decade or more trying to get over despite a smattering of Big Wins and almost wins over that period. We've stayed a level above them up until now but its concerning the similarities developing.

It's hard to see a good or better team next year unless the light goes on this year in the shape of a nice winning streak to close out the season. If it doesn't then you move to the issues around who leaves. If Jesse and Joe move on and everyone else is back then that group will have bigger roles and have to learn to win along with those roles. It can be a brutal cycle to get stuck in for however long...

 

[FrancoPizza]

Need 2 6’5 guards with 7 foot wingspans who are athletic, can handle, pass, shoot, and defend.

7 foot wingspans would have been fine in 2010. Now we need 13 feet of length.

 

[Orangezoo]

Need 2 6’5 guards with 7 foot wingspans who are athletic, can handle, pass, shoot, and defend. Need two 6’8-6’9 forwards with 7’5 wingspans who are athletic, can defend, run the floor and dunk, and at least one of them needs point forward skills and at least one of them needs to be able to shoot. And need a 7 foot center with an 8 foot wingspan who can run to the corners and block jump shots, defend the rim, defend the high post, catch the ball, dunk, set ball screens 25 feet from the hoop, and catch and finish on rim runs.

No big deal. Just get guys like that. That’s what I’d do.

And with all that- they still must have strong bball IQ and be able to shut down open 2s and open 3s by not over rotating and staying consistent on every possession.

 

[OrangeDW]

The BC analogy is a good one even in looking at where we landed last year and are today. BC has been a team that "looks better" based on competitive losses for a while now as they navigate through their season year in year out. It hasn't ever elevated past that.

You can spot development and improvements in a team during both losses and wins. That isn't disputable but there is a Fool's Gold in placing too much stock in playing better vs a good team but still losing. Miami, UNC and now UVA are games where I see so many comments pointing out growth and development in almost winning those games but failing to execute late. The Taylor interview with Devo was a good listen and he expressed positivity as well in terms of expecting that learning how to win those games is coming.

That last hurdle very well could be overcome - not gonna deny that for a second. It's also the hurdle the BC program has spent a decade or more trying to get over despite a smattering of Big Wins and almost wins over that period. We've stayed a level above them up until now but its concerning the similarities developing.

It's hard to see a good or better team next year unless the light goes on this year in the shape of a nice winning streak to close out the season. If it doesn't then you move to the issues around who leaves. If Jesse and Joe move on and everyone else is back then that group will have bigger roles and have to learn to win along with those roles. It can be a brutal cycle to get stuck in for however long...

We either need Jesse back or a bigtime transfer C to be any good next year. Hima is fine as a backup, but rolling with him and Carey as our centers would be an absolute joke. That’s bottom feeder ACC program level stuff.

I think there’s enough pieces at guard and forward to potentially be pretty good at the 1-4 spots.

 

[OrangeDW]

And with all that- they still must have strong bball IQ and be able to shut down open 2s and open 3s by not over rotating and staying consistent on every possession.

I forget to include that they all have to play together for 2-3 years too!

 

[Orangezoo]

We either need Jesse back or a bigtime transfer C to be any good next year. Hima is fine as a backup, but rolling with him and Carey as our centers would be an absolute joke. That’s bottom feeder ACC program level stuff.

I think there’s enough pieces at guard and forward to potentially be pretty good at the 1-4 spots.

Agreed. I think Taylor can take a big step as a 2G. He has shown he can do more than just spot up. If he commits and works hard on his handle he has major upside.

Bell has everything to work on. I think he can get better but it's on him. 50/50 there.

If we land Adams- hoping he can be what Benny couldn't as a frosh. Then you have a strong starting forward combo with he and Maliq. Thus Jesse returning as you note is massive. He's been away from home for so long like Marek was too not sure If he wants another year..

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

I operate under the assumption that having already been sanctioned by the NCAA, JB should have run an ultra clean program and not put the program at risk of sanctions. Furthermore, if he were to believe that the NCAA would not be kind to him, he should have been even more diligent.
Having failed to protect the program, the results are his to bear.
The OP just feeds into JB’s attitude that nothing is his fault. The probation, the sanctions, the downward slide, the lack of energy about the program, the bad recruiting, the early departures, the failure of any of his assistants to get HC offers elsewhere, the loss of Hopkins, are all on JB. He is the captain of the ship. All responsibility is his.

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

I don’t see how the second set of sanctions were on JB. He couldn’t get involved in Fab’s academics. And there was no indication he inserted himself in the situation at any point. Yeah, he hired a guy who did shady stuff. He’s the fall guy for that, at best, not really involved. The drugs thing was 100% the AD. The YMCA thing was compliance related. That’s not something a head coach would or should know about, if we’re living in the real world and not the NCAA fantasy land where head coaches are somehow omnipresent.

 

[Brooky03]

Haley’s comet is what you’re pining for

Not really. It doesn’t take unicorn recruits to make the zone work.

 

[SBU72]

Would be interesting to see. When you look at Pitt, Ville and ND I think timing has a lot to do with some of their struggles that would have manifested no matter what. Miami's had a nice stretch albeit in large part to a great coaching hire. VT has had some good hires as well and while not setting the world on fire they have had some nice seasons.

I think it's quite difficult to really correlate the conference move with program trajectory.

The game changing in terms of perimeter shooting, losing Hop, sanctions, NIL and JB holding on too long all play a role more than conference change I feel.

I whole heartedly agree. There are so many aspects to this decline that to chose 1 is difficult at best. I agree that the program would have been better off if JB had followed through with leaving. (So in that case blame Hopkins!) but to say bringing in a new coach will solve everything is very naive. I personally don't think that SU can bring in the brilliant young up and coming coach every body thinks they can.

 

[FrancoPizza]

And with all that- they still must have strong bball IQ and be able to shut down open 2s and open 3s by not over rotating and staying consistent on every possession.

They also need eyes in the back of their head so they see when the wing is cutting to the hoop behind them.

And they also need to replicate themselves so they can cover 2 shooters at once.

 

[Sbucketball]

We either need Jesse back or a bigtime transfer C to be any good next year. Hima is fine as a backup, but rolling with him and Carey as our centers would be an absolute joke. That’s bottom feeder ACC program level stuff.

I think there’s enough pieces at guard and forward to potentially be pretty good at the 1-4 spots.

Devo's podcast from last week has me concerned. He was talking to JT about next year and said that Hima could be a good rim-protecting center and he thinks there'll be enough scoring around him that it would work. Obviously Devo doesn't make the decisions, but he talks to the staff and I wonder if they're talking about Hima taking over next year. Hima was recruited on the pitch to come in and train with Jesse for a year and then compete for the starting spot. We'll find out in a few months.

 

[OrangeDW]

Devo's podcast from last week has me concerned. He was talking to JT about next year and said that Hima could be a good rim-protecting center and he thinks there'll be enough scoring around him that it would work. Obviously Devo doesn't make the decisions, but he talks to the staff and I wonder if they're talking about Hima taking over next year. Hima was recruited on the pitch to come in and train with Jesse for a year and then compete for the starting spot. We'll find out in a few months.

Hima splitting the spot with a transfer that can play and Hima splitting the spot with Carey are two very different things to me.

Even if Hima does improve a lot and start, he’s a 20 mpg level starter, not a 30+ mpg level starter. We need another guy, for sure.

 

[Sbucketball]

Hima splitting the spot with a transfer that can play and Hima splitting the spot with Carey are two very different things to me.

Even if Hima does improve a lot and start, he’s a 20 mpg level starter, not a 30+ mpg level starter. We need another guy, for sure.

He might foul out in 20 minutes. We need someone. And for the record, I like Hima a lot and think he has a high ceiling. But I agree with your assessment.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

Because when the zone has the pieces it tends to be elite. And that remains true in this era of basketball.

Does it?

Seriously, when’s the last time our defense was considered elite?

 

[djcon57]

Does it?

Seriously, when’s the last time our defense was considered elite?

17-18, oddly enough, we just couldnt score

 

[Orangezoo]

17-18, oddly enough

One interesting note on that was that season we also had an incredibly slow tempo, even for SU standards, at 345th per Ken Pom. The methodical approach to the games really helped that year. All that said still 14 losses that year - fun finish though.

In the spirit of the rarity of finding the perfect formula, that team along with the following year was so offensively challenged that while very effective in the zone on paper, the lack of pace for a team that was bad on offense partially nullified the positives of the zone. Thus with the length at all positions, we lacked the complementary skills on offense from that group.

 

[Orangepace]

I don’t see how the second set of sanctions were on JB. He couldn’t get involved in Fab’s academics. And there was no indication he inserted himself in the situation at any point. Yeah, he hired a guy who did shady stuff. He’s the fall guy for that, at best, not really involved. The drugs thing was 100% the AD. The YMCA thing was compliance related. That’s not something a head coach would or should know about, if we’re living in the real world and not the NCAA fantasy land where head coaches are somehow omnipresent.

I understand and respect your position on this, but strongly disagree. Leadership tone is set at the top. While we all see the AD as the top here, we know JB had more leverage/pull on the hill than just about everyone. Given it’s the second set of sanctions, I think there’s pretty clear indication that the tone of the program at the top was not where it needed to be. Negligence is not an appropriate defense in my opinion.

Further, I’m not willing to write-off the results of those years because he was responsible for the sanctions. If they were someone else’s I’d be willing to write them off, but you make your bed, you lie in it.

 

[Brooky03]

Does it?

Seriously, when’s the last time our defense was considered elite?

I thought it was elite in 2010 and 2014, which would qualify as ‘this era’ based on 3pt shooting percentages and volume across the NCAA.

 

[Cusefan0307]

17-18, oddly enough, we just couldnt score

That team epitomized the fact we need to give up offense to be good defensively in the zone. A center who had really long arms, but terrible hands and no offensive skill. Two long guards whose favorite shots were long twos and couldn’t setup others. One forward who had long arms, but weighed 180 pounds and another that had the worst shooting percentage at the rim of any player probably in Syracuse history.