Duke, Kentucky

[OrangeDW]

So, look at it from an individual's point of view. You're Marvin Bagley Jr. Where do you go? Are you really saying there's a better destination for you? If so, which school? And why. And, yes, i do think you're ignoring that K and Cal are better recruiters than the rest. By far.

K wasn’t recruiting at this level before the last 5 years or so, though. What changed?

 

[dasher]

Kentucky’s dirty to its eye-sockets, and their miraculous recruiting started when Pay-Pal arrived. He didn’t get that moniker for nothing, Zelda. He’s been dirty at every school he’s coached at. And like Albany, I don’t accept that getting the nation’s top players every year is traceable to Cal’s amazing coaching prowess (good not great), a perception of elevated draft status (nonsense) or any “classes” offered at UK (lol) remotely resembling the research schools you listed. It’s a farce there. Duke is a different story. Yes, they’ve had their issues too. But most of their recruiting success at this point is the program’s momentum and the hype that Coach K gets from the media. He’s also very successful, unlike UK (which frequently underachieves compared to the miracle recruits they get).

Kentucky has always been at the top of the recruiting chain. They have shared it with a few others, but they have always been a blue blood.

 

[dasher]

K wasn’t recruiting at this level before the last 5 years or so, though. What changed?

The one and done changed. K had to change with the times.

 

[cuseattle]

K wasn’t recruiting at this level before the last 5 years or so, though. What changed?

He copied Calipari. He decided to go after the best even if it was for only one year. It must drive him nuts.

 

[cuseattle]

Kentucky has always been at the top of the recruiting chain. They have shared it with a few others, but they have always been a blue blood.

North Carolina held that title for a while.

 

[Cusefan0307]

K wasn’t recruiting at this level before the last 5 years or so, though. What changed?

Jeff Capel joined the staff who ironically cheated at Oklahoma, but whatever nothing to see here.

Calipari has cheated everywhere he went, but whatever. I don’t get why people cry when this stuff is brought up. It’s not that big of a stretch to say both those schools cheat.

 

[OrangeDW]

Jeff Capel joined the staff who ironically cheated at Oklahoma, but whatever nothing to see here.
.

Yup. That’s what I was going for.

 

[reedny]

Don't mistake me. I'm not asserting Kentucky (or anyone else) is clean. But, show your work. We've been as 'dirty' as Cal. And i'm not sure where the blame lies with two of Cal's 'issues.' Marcus Camby? Didn't he take money from an agent? And Derrick Rose had someone take his SATs for him? What else?

But, the point in the OP's question had to do with why the best kids were going to these two particular schools. And, if you think Duke has enough going for it that they don't have to engage in pay for play, then i'm suggesting Kentucky is on the same level with most of the same attributes. I continue to ask the same question: if you're a top five player in america, where do you want to go to school? Which is the best situation?

This statement "we've been as dirty as Cal" shows you know little about our program and nothing about UK. It's totally insulting. Are you even an SU fan? Yes, we're not perfect, no school is. But Cal's made a living off of high-level cheating that makes footnotes and paying kids to ref Y games look like coloring outside the lines in kindergarten. I don't know why you'd come on a Syracuse fan site and pretend we're on their level. I don't need to "show my work" because pretty much everyone who follows college sports knows that getting the top 5 kids annually is not because of Cal's good looks. Whatever. You've outdone yourself this time.

 

[reedny]

Kentucky has always been at the top of the recruiting chain. They have shared it with a few others, but they have always been a blue blood.

Of course. And yes they've shared it with a few others, but not us. Amazing post by Zelda. Wow. But whatever. Not going to stress over people's off-the-wall statements.

 

[AlaskaSU]

The last thing was just handed to them. It took no effort. But as I just said, paying a player isn't a federal crime.

As you said; tax avoidance is a crime. They care about it. Ask Al Capone. If K and Squid were paying players the FBI would care. There are grey areas where benefits can and are doled out, but it is very unlikely that K and Squid are paying players. They do not have to. Kentucky houses players in a dorm fit for a Middle East tyrant and Duke offers unique prestige. No need for conspiracy theories. The likeliest cheating schools are the wannabees that lack the advantages that Kentucky and Duke have. No surprise that Louisville and Arizona etc. were investigated and caught. N. Carolina is in the category of habitual cheaters but they were smart enough not to use cash. If you want to cast stones, look at the Duke and Kentucky wannabees.

 

[dasher]

As you said; tax avoidance is a crime. They care about it. Ask Al Capone. If K and Squid were paying players the FBI would care. There are grey areas where benefits can and are doled out, but it is very unlikely that K and Squid are paying players. They do not have to. Kentucky houses players in a dorm fit for a Middle East tyrant and Duke offers unique prestige. No need for conspiracy theories. The likeliest cheating schools are the wannabees that lack the advantages that Kentucky and Duke have. No surprise that Louisville and Arizona etc. were investigated and caught. N. Carolina is in the category of habitual cheaters but they were smart enough not to use cash. If you want to cast stones, look at the Duke and Kentucky wannabees.

I agree that the wannabees are a likely place to look. I don't believe that one school can get the #1 player in the country 5 of the last 6 years without there being inducements besides prestige.

 

[Gotothehole]

K wasn’t recruiting at this level before the last 5 years or so, though. What changed?

Jeff Capel ... Is it not clear?

 

[Funk Doc]

I don’t know or have any proof of cheating, by my dilemma comes down to this. The top kids really have no interest in “schooling”, and only attend to market themselves to the NBA. I think winning/coaching is a very distant second reason why they choose the school they do. With that in mind it’s a tough call to pick a place loaded with other talented players to hopefully help you look better, versus picking a place where you can stand out and be the guy. I find it very interesting that it’s in the minority that they do they pick a place to be the stand out guy, which is what always make me wonder!

On a side note, I’m really excited that Adam Silver is working with the Union to address the one and done stuff!

 

[Cuse'91]

I don’t know or have any proof of cheating, by my dilemma comes down to this. The top kids really have no interest in “schooling”, and only attend to market themselves to the NBA. I think winning/coaching is a very distant second reason why they choose the school they do. With that in mind it’s a tough call to pick a place loaded with other talented players to hopefully help you look better, versus picking a place where you can stand out and be the guy. I find it very interesting that it’s in the minority that they do they pick a place to be the stand out guy, which is what always make me wonder!

On a side note, I’m really excited that Adam Silver is working with the Union to address the one and done stuff!

Super teams are in vogue currently, just look at the NBA, because 18 year old kids certainly do...
They want to play for the college equivalent of the Warriors or Cavaliers...

 

[Funk Doc]

Super teams are in vogue currently, just look at the NBA, because 18 year old kids certainly do...

I understand, but these kids are not in the NBA. They’re selling themselves to the league. Once they get their and are getting paid, the goal changes. It’s about winning and continuing to get paid.

 

[AlaskaSU]

When you play on a college super team you get plenty of PR and scout exposure.

 

[Zelda Zonk]

This statement "we've been as dirty as Cal" shows you know little about our program and nothing about UK. It's totally insulting. Are you even an SU fan? Yes, we're not perfect, no school is. But Cal's made a living off of high-level cheating that makes footnotes and paying kids to ref Y games look like coloring outside the lines in kindergarten. I don't know why you'd come on a Syracuse fan site and pretend we're on their level. I don't need to "show my work" because pretty much everyone who follows college sports knows that getting the top 5 kids annually is not because of Cal's good looks. Whatever. You've outdone yourself this time.

Settle down, Francis.
I apologize for the off the cuff statement. I kinda imagined you would interpret it in two ways, and you obviously can only see one. In the eyes of the rest of the non-orange world, we've been on probation twice. Do you think anyone outside of our little bubble actually read the charges against us? Try for a minute to look at things objectively.

As I said, I don't for a minute assert cal is all angel wings and kittens' breath. And I asked sincerely what he had actually done. The camby thing and derrick rose sat things I don't attribute to him fully/at all. And as I illustrated, I think Kentucky and Duke have two legs up on everyone else recruiting-wise. Plus, they actually go after the top talent, unlike a lot of programs which find excuses or rationales to not bother anymore. They've embraced the one and done and kids know that. No one has yet answered the question of why AN INDIVDUAL would or shouldn't go to Kentucky or Duke...

'Not needing to show your work' typically means you can't. I hope someone eventually can, as I do believe the playing field isn't level, and I pray the FBI honestly roots out all the dirt everywhere. But I'm also not one of those guys who is praying that they find it in any particular place. And still, I'm not throwing around accusations without actual knowledge. If you visited other schools' forums when we used to sign major players, the conversation was very much the same. They all insisted WE were buying them. 'No reason to the arctic to play for a stuffy coach.' Right?

As for my 'fandom,' it's as strong as yours. You sound like one of those 'stand dfor the anthem or get out of the country' bozos.

 

[Cusefan0307]

TMZ video shows LeBron James out with agent Rich Paul and Class of 2018 star Cameron Reddish

Hmmm

 

[NYCSUGrad]

This statement "we've been as dirty as Cal" shows you know little about our program and nothing about UK. It's totally insulting. Are you even an SU fan? Yes, we're not perfect, no school is. But Cal's made a living off of high-level cheating that makes footnotes and paying kids to ref Y games look like coloring outside the lines in kindergarten. I don't know why you'd come on a Syracuse fan site and pretend we're on their level. I don't need to "show my work" because pretty much everyone who follows college sports knows that getting the top 5 kids annually is not because of Cal's good looks. Whatever. You've outdone yourself this time.

Look at the name. Zelda Zonk. Like the bad prizes on Let's Make A Deal. A Zonk. He (or she) is punking us.

 

[W'boro'Cuse315]

This statement "we've been as dirty as Cal" shows you know little about our program and nothing about UK. It's totally insulting. Are you even an SU fan? Yes, we're not perfect, no school is. But Cal's made a living off of high-level cheating that makes footnotes and paying kids to ref Y games look like coloring outside the lines in kindergarten. I don't know why you'd come on a Syracuse fan site and pretend we're on their level. I don't need to "show my work" because pretty much everyone who follows college sports knows that getting the top 5 kids annually is not because of Cal's good looks. Whatever. You've outdone yourself this time.

So, you think Calipari is good looking?

 

[Zelda Zonk]

Look at the name. Zelda Zonk. Like the bad prizes on Let's Make A Deal. A Zonk. He (or she) is punking us.

Punking? No. More like 'Devil's advocate.'
Devil's advocate definition, a person who advocates an opposing or unpopular cause for the sake of argument or to expose it to a thorough examination.

 

[jncuse]

• Many forms of illegal recruiting are not Federal Crime. FBI is in the business of detecting crime not cracking down on NCAA cheaters.
• Why is it so hard to believe that blue bloods have an advantage of recruiting? P5 schools can recruit easier than non P5 schools. The top half of the P5 can recruit much more easily than the bottom half. Why is it so hard that the elite P5 have an advantage over the other good school?
• If I was generic top recruit I would go UK before Syracuse. First off Calipari fights for his draftees much harder than JB after the season is over. He doesn't sit there and say the guy is not ready... you can call JB honest, you can call Calipari delivering on what he promised - he is going to do the best he can to get you drafted as high as possible next year. Calipari has proved it with many recruits getting to the first. Maybe the %'s are not that much better, but kids see all those that went to UK and got into the NCAA

Does UK cheat for some ... sure. But they have put in a framework to recruit one and done's better than anybody else.

 

[TinyManInside]

These guys just reload and reload every single year with the nations top players. You can’t convince me they are better recruiters than the rest of the recruiters in the nation.

With the FBI investigating into college basketball this seems like an obvious situation to look into. But they won’t because too many people are making tons of money off them.

See here's the thing... the entire investigation had nothing to do with basketball at the beginning. They were investigating financial crimes of a small group of individuals, they unraveled the thread, and they found what they found. There was no specific "targeting" of schools going on, they were just following where the evidence lead them, and they were investigating fishy dealings of the sneaker companies.

My understanding from following recruiting very closely for a long time is that all of the inducements related to Duke come on the booster side of things, so the FBI isn't gonna get anything on Duke if they're looking at the shoe companies. I don't know anything about how Kentucky does things. I wouldn't get your hopes up because I don't think the FBI's original motive was to come down hard on college basketball, it's just where one of their investigations led them.

 

[NYCSUGrad]

See here's the thing... the entire investigation had nothing to do with basketball at the beginning. They were investigating financial crimes of a small group of individuals, they unraveled the thread, and they found what they found. There was no specific "targeting" of schools going on, they were just following where the evidence lead them, and they were investigating fishy dealings of the sneaker companies.

My understanding from following recruiting very closely for a long time is that all of the inducements related to Duke come on the booster side of things, so the FBI isn't gonna get anything on Duke if they're looking at the shoe companies. I don't know anything about how Kentucky does things. I wouldn't get your hopes up because I don't think the FBI's original motive was to come down hard on college basketball, it's just where one of their investigations led them.

Interesting

 

[reedny]

Settle down, Francis.
I apologize for the off the cuff statement. I kinda imagined you would interpret it in two ways, and you obviously can only see one. In the eyes of the rest of the non-orange world, we've been on probation twice. Do you think anyone outside of our little bubble actually read the charges against us? Try for a minute to look at things objectively.

As I said, I don't for a minute assert cal is all angel wings and kittens' breath. And I asked sincerely what he had actually done. The camby thing and derrick rose sat things I don't attribute to him fully/at all. And as I illustrated, I think Kentucky and Duke have two legs up on everyone else recruiting-wise. Plus, they actually go after the top talent, unlike a lot of programs which find excuses or rationales to not bother anymore. They've embraced the one and done and kids know that. No one has yet answered the question of why AN INDIVDUAL would or shouldn't go to Kentucky or Duke...

'Not needing to show your work' typically means you can't. I hope someone eventually can, as I do believe the playing field isn't level, and I pray the FBI honestly roots out all the dirt everywhere. But I'm also not one of those guys who is praying that they find it in any particular place. And still, I'm not throwing around accusations without actual knowledge. If you visited other schools' forums when we used to sign major players, the conversation was very much the same. They all insisted WE were buying them. 'No reason to the arctic to play for a stuffy coach.' Right?

As for my 'fandom,' it's as strong as yours. You sound like one of those 'stand dfor the anthem or get out of the country' bozos.

You've backed off your insulting c0mparison, so I won't belabor it. But the mantel you've taken on as UK shill, and board "devil's advocate" here to "correct" others, seems a little weird. Also, your silly "prove your work" argument doesn't get better the second and third time. The fact that Cal hasn't been caught yet at UK doesn't mean he's a good guy. He's been caught at both of his previous coaching stops with pay-for-play schemes. He had a FF vacated, etc. That's "work". Although there's only rumors at UK so far of player payments, a number of UK players have tweeted that they don't go to class. We all know it's an academic farce there, even if the money bags haven't been publicly outed yet. Either way, UK's operating under a different set of rules. I'm not self-righteous enough to tell you to leave the forum because you don't measure up to my expectations. As far as I'm concerned, you can say what you want. But expect to be called out when you compare JB/SU to the cesspool at UK.

As for your claim that we're just as guilty in the minds of college BB fans, that doesn't hold water either. Many knowledgeable analysts from Jay Bilas on down decried the most recent penalties against SU as total overkill. That's obvious via a simple comparison of Fab's footnotes and the Y refereeing fees versus the LV/UM FBI payola investigations and UNC's 18 year history of sham majors (10 of the 15 UNC players on their o5 NC team were AFAM majors).