Dungey's incomplete pass for a touchdown

[K Otto XLIV]

I think the problem was all about the call on the field. They said "play stands" not "play confirmed". If they had called it a pass, they wouldn't have overturned. It was too close. I don't get how people think it was obvious.

Since the call on the field is so important, my hope is that if the ball goes forward, they should err on the side that it was a pass. (Unless that works against us too someday).

I rather them always rule a fumble. You can overturn a fumble you cannot over turn an incomplete pass.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

I think a lot of you are missing the point here.

The quarterback needs to have control of the ball and have his arm going forward for it to be considered an incomplete pass. Saying that his arm was going forward was a given, obviously. However, he didn't have possession of the football during this period, therefore, it was ruled a fumble. I think the main thing you guys are hung up on is the fact that the ball went forward, which doesn't matter in the slightest. You have to possess it.

I've seen this happen a lot in the NFL and college. However, I do not recall a time in which it was so close to having his arm move forward and the ball come loose simultaneously.

The ruling on the field was what cost us. When the referee looked at it, he too thought it was too close to call, which is why it wasn't confirmed.

I guess I'm having a hard time differentiating that play with those times when, say, the QB throws a duck because their grip slipped and the ball left their hand out of control.

 

[CousCuse]

Spot on. He had been hit when he started his motion forward. Obviously the momentum of his arm propelled the ball forward, but that was not a controlled motion. I thought it was a rather clear fumble and certainly wasnt overturnable after the original call.

Then every single one of these kinds of plays should be a fumble , under your interpretation of the rule.

 

[Cuseman78]

Then every single one of these kinds of plays should be a fumble , under your interpretation of the rule.

When the QB does not have control of the ball when his arm starts moving forward, its a fumble. So yes, thats exactly what I'm saying.

 

[CousCuse]

When the QB does not have control of the ball when his arm starts moving forward, its a fumble. So yes, thats exactly what I'm saying.

The arm was moving forward or else the ball would not have flown down field. If the QB has enough control over the ball to make it flight down field at all , it has to be considered an attempted pass.

 

[RICuse44]

I guess this has turned into an existential discussion of when a pass really becomes a pass. I have never seen a play called like that

 

[OttoinGrotto]

The arm was moving forward or else the ball would not have flown down field. If the QB has enough control over the ball to make it flight down field at all , it has to be considered an attempted pass.

That's how I see it.

 

[RF2044]

But that's what I don't understand... How is that NOT enough visual evidence. The hit was from dungey's left and the tackler pulled his arm down. Clear shot on video. The ball was NOT touched by the tackle. Clear shot on video. Dungeys arm was going forward which is why the ball went 7 yards downfield. Clear shot on the video.

I have no idea how that is 50/50.

We just seem a bit cursed for the last decade. Hell, they beat us by scoring 44 points. Salt in the wound.

Agree 100%. Should have been an incomplete pass. I can't even envision how a group of officials couldn't get that right after the replay. Baffling.

Your take is 100% spot on.

 

[Upstate]

But I thought Dungey's arm was clearly moving forward with the ball in his hand, and they really blew that call.

 

[Chip]

I rather them always rule a fumble. You can overturn a fumble you cannot over turn an incomplete pass.

I believe you can. If it's an obvious recovery by the other team. I thought they changed that rule.

Although I think it becomes a dead ball at the point of recovery, so there's that.

 

[jgeorge322]

It is hard to imagine a ball going 8 yards down field if the arm is not going forward. All the players were waiting for a whistle. Even the announcers who were visibly calling the game from the UVA perspective did not know what was going on.

I think the key is the defender hit the arm too and not the ball. So, if the defender didnt cause the ball to go forward, what did? Clearly his arm but it did seem like a tough replay.

 

[Ghost]

I think the key is the defender hit the arm too and not the ball. So, if the defender didnt cause the ball to go forward, what did? Clearly his arm but it did seem like a tough replay.

I thought the replay was tough as well - but only to the extent that most angles didn't provide a clear cut call that could lead to a reversal of the call on the field. What's that matter though? There was absolutely one angle that clearly showed the arm was going forward prior to the ball coming out. That one angle was definitive. And that's all they should have needed.

 

[Halfmooncuse]

I think a lot of you are missing the point here.

The quarterback needs to have control of the ball and have his arm going forward for it to be considered an incomplete pass. Saying that his arm was going forward was a given, obviously. However, he didn't have possession of the football during this period, therefore, it was ruled a fumble. I think the main thing you guys are hung up on is the fact that the ball went forward, which doesn't matter in the slightest. You have to possess it.

I've seen this happen a lot in the NFL and college. However, I do not recall a time in which it was so close to having his arm move forward and the ball come loose simultaneously.

The ruling on the field was what cost us. When the referee looked at it, he too thought it was too close to call, which is why it wasn't confirmed.

So if Some SU eligible player catches it, its a completion? If its an ineligible player, is it a fumble recovery or a completion to an ineligble receiver and a penalty?

 

[Moontan]

I thought it was a fumble. The ball was coming out before his arm was forward.

I, respectfully, disagree. The ball appeared to come out in a spiral... how could that possibly be a fumble?

 

[OrangePA]

I thought it was a fumble. The ball was coming out before his arm was forward.

That's what doesn't make sense.

If he lost control of the ball, before his arm went forward, how did the ball go forward nearly ten yards?

Nobody else touched the ball. So that tells me that Dungey actually retained possession of the ball as he threw in a forward motion.

It was a bad call in my opinion.

 

[tep624]

In my opinion, it was a lousy job by the refs. Real time, that's way to close to call either way. Therefore, you call it the safe way, incomplete pass, and let it go to review. What you don't do is call it a Fumble return for a TD and then hope it was the right call. Arm moving forward, ball going forward a significant distance, defender didn't hit the ball, 99 times out of a 100 that gets called an incomplete pass on the field.

We got hosed on that one. We shot ourselves in the foot enough times for it not to be the play we hang our hats on, but hosed nonetheless.

 

[TheCusian]

In my opinion, it was a lousy job by the refs. Real time, that's way to close to call either way. Therefore, you call it the safe way, incomplete pass, and let it go to review. What you don't do is call it a Fumble return for a TD and then hope it was the right call. Arm moving forward, ball going forward a significant distance, defender didn't hit the ball, 99 times out of a 100 that gets called an incomplete pass on the field. We got hosed on that one. We shot ourselves in the foot enough times for it not to be the play we hang our hats on, but hosed nonetheless.

Home cookin

 

[SWC75]

Spot on. He had been hit when he started his motion forward. Obviously the momentum of his arm propelled the ball forward, but that was not a controlled motion. I thought it was a rather clear fumble and certainly wasnt overturnable after the original call.

"Obviously the momentum of his arm propelled the ball forward." If that's not a pass, then we are in the "defintion of is" territory.

 

[tipphill]

I agree. Watched it in slow motion several times. The defender had his elbow before the arm was going forward and the ball started coming out. It was bang bang.

i like this post!!! it speaks volumes of what many of us said previously that the ol is the key -----dungey is getting smashed and running for his life in these games. maybe that is why we do not throw down field ---there is no protection---maybe thats why we can't run the ball in from the 1yd.---no blocking---maybe....

 

[FrancoPizza]

I watched the replay a bunch of times, and it really was one of the closest calls that I've seen. .

instinctively it looked like an incomplete pass in real time. The ruling on the field should have been incomplete. Let the replay decide if it was clearly a fumble - not the other way around. The refs screwed up. It still looked like it was a forward pass on replay.

 

[FrancoPizza]

In my opinion, it was a lousy job by the refs. Real time, that's way to close to call either way. Therefore, you call it the safe way, incomplete pass, and let it go to review. What you don't do is call it a Fumble return for a TD and then hope it was the right call.

Exactly. The refs s hit the bed on that one. It doesn't matter that the replay shows it may have been a fumble. There was no way you could have confidently ruled that a fumble in real time. The ruling on the field is always given more weight.

 

[bcubs9497]

I don't care how anyone rationalizes that; it was a @#$! pass!

 

[upperdeck]

the questi0n is the ball might have been coming loose because of the contact, but the fact it went so far also means he had some control of the ball to throw it forward that far. if it goes 3-5 yds then i can see a fumble call but to go so far as to almost be a completed pass then its a pass. . worst thing is live it looks like a pass to everyone on the field except the ref who lets it play out . had he ruled it a pass, then replay changes it to a fumble its still no TD.

what if the same play he throws it 30 yds down field they still going to rule it a fumble?

 

[FrancoPizza]

the fact that the ball went so far means he had some control of the ball to throw it forward that far. if it goes 3-5 yds then i can see a fumble call but to go so far as to almost be a completed pass then its a pass. . worst thing is live it looks like a pass to everyone on the field except the ref who lets it play out . had he ruled it a pass, then replay changes it to a fumble its still no TD.

what if the same play he throws it 30 yds down field they still going to rule it a fumble?

Bingo. For an example of what should be ruled a fumble in that situation... rewatch Marvin Graves "throw" an interception to Rohan Marley just as he turns and spots a wide open Gedney for what would have been the g0-ahead TD.

 

[SWC75]

No matter how absurd a call is, somebody always thinks it's a good one.