Ennis headed back to the D-League. 2 questions ?

[SWC75]

Then I perish the thought of what you think of college basketball that doesn't involve Syracuse. The headline game of the day involved two teams shooting a combined 33% with little over 1 turnover a minute. Meanwhile the best NBA game of the day featured two teams that combined to shoot 46% while featuring two of the best players on the planet in Anthony Davis and Derrick Rose,

I agree that college ball has certainly declined and many games are difficult to watch. I think a lot of it is that players with legit offensive skills, (primarily shooting), jump to the NBA early and the college game is increasingly an anvil chorus of balls clanging off the rim.

It may be that I've watched the Knicks too much and the Spurs too little, but I still think the NBA is more about players making individual moves and not teams going 5 on 5. In turn, that means the NBA is less about strategy than individual performance. And, as to the atmosphere if the games, it couldn't be more different. I've never seen an NBA that could compare to what happened in the Dome between SU and Duke last year.

I'm probably looking at it through SU colored glasses but they are the only pair I've got.

 

[Delmar]

Funny, Ennis was known for making the right decision on the court just about every time. The decision he made off the court is subject to all kinds of second guessing.

 

[HOFCeluck]

What difference does it make? Staying 3-4 years helped them improve and get drafted higher than they would have been had they come out earlier. They all certainly helped improve their stock by staying.

Seriously? It makes a HUGE difference.

 

[SarasotaPaul]

I honestly can't think of a single guy who stayed in school and improved his prospects. I can easily rattle off a few names who did the opposite.

what is he going to get better at by staying at syracuse? Zone defense?

You had me at "I honestly can't think" ... But then you cemented it with "I can easily rattle off a few" ...Not a lot but a few... Please tell me you had a few ( OK a lot ) too many drinks before posting this... too much eggnog or something... anything to mitigate this "thought" ..

 

[Czar]

I agree that college ball has certainly declined and many games are difficult to watch. I think a lot of it is that players with legit offensive skills, (primarily shooting), jump to the NBA early and the college game is increasingly an anvil chorus of balls clanging off the rim.

It may be that I've watched the Knicks too much and the Spurs too little, but I still think the NBA is more about players making individual moves and not teams going 5 on 5. In turn, that means the NBA is less about strategy than individual performance. And, as to the atmosphere if the games, it couldn't be more different. I've never seen an NBA that could compare to what happened in the Dome between SU and Duke last year.

I'm probably looking at it through SU colored glasses but they are the only pair I've got.

I won't argue with atmosphere. Piped in music pisses me off. But yeah, if you're watching the Knicks, you're not getting a good representation. The Knicks are probably one of the few NBA teams still running Iso's as a primary component of their offensive sets. I do find that funny though, as I think ISO ball is way, way, way more prevalent in college right now. Especially Syracuse, which seems to run Iso a large percentage of the time.

Also don't watch the Spurs, watch the Warriors. Even if you have to stay up to 10:30 one night, do it. They're playing the most beautiful basketball there is right now.

 

[SUFan44]

So, I'm going to ignore this whole draft stock thing, because there's a funnier and more inherently wrong argument that went on in this thread.

Plain and simple, if you don't like the NBA, or you make any argument against the NBA by saying that college plays more team ball, or the games matter more, or other random crap, you're not a basketball fan. Plain and simple. I don't mind people that have a preference for college that has basis in reality. Such as caring more about an alma mater than a franchise not located by them, or anything like that. But if you're going to trash the NBA and say it has worse coaching, defense, attitude, whatever, you're not a basketball fan, you're an idiot.

Maybe people just never bothered to look again after the dark age of a decade ago when the NBA was mired in rock fights and a talent bubble, but the NBA right now is far and away the best basketball you can watch anywhere, period. It has the best coaching, the most varied coaching, the best players, the best assemblage of talent in the world, and overall just the best talent.

Conversely, were it not for Syracuse I could not give less than a s*** about college basketball. It's freaking terrible. The pace is atrocious, there is more of that "me" ball than in the NBA, the refereeing is a joke and not properly managed by the NCAA or conferences, the lack of innovation is mind boggling, and it hasn't progressed as a form in over a decade. Outside of a small handful of teams and games a night you're getting a ton of rock fights and cynicism.

Go look at an NCAA basketball game from a decade, 15 years ago. The game barely looks any different in a meta sense. It is stagnant, if anything it regressed. Meanwhile you compare the NBA now to 10-15 years ago and the amount of innovation and difference is astounding, and it continues to push forward and challenge the status quo. College basketball is in a rut, and you can blame the player culture and whatever and yeah, it has some effect but college coaching is garbage right now. It's horribly stagnant and part of the reason is because there has barely been any change in the "guard" of legendary coaches. Note I'm not making some Boeheim retirement spiel, just that the same big personalities and trendsetters are still there and going and look to continue to be going strong. The only new blood is what, Calipari? After he came back from the wilds of the NBA?

So, in summation, the NBA offers the best basketball anything on the planet, if your preference for college is because of a reason that isn't rooting interest related or some other off court reason, you're full of it or willfully ignorant, and College Basketball is where innovation has gone to die.

Oh, and yeah, Ennis made the right decision. But that's for himself to validate, not a bunch of middle aged superfans with a vested interest elsewhere to decide. And Carmelo and them can talk about wanting to go back and everything but in the end that's nostalgia and shouldn't be taken at face value.

NBA is absolutely a better product for a pure basketball fan than college. There's no question in my mind.

Here's where I have a problem and the point that I am trying to make - the NBA D League product is not better than college basketball at the ACC level, on any level. If you are spending large periods of time at that level, it is not helping your game. The defense is an even bigger joke than any of the aforementioned things you say about college, and the coaching is much worse.

Let's take a quick peek at a few head coaches in the D League:

Ken McDonald - Austin - Fired from Western Kentucky after 3.5 years
Nate Bjorkgren - Bakersfield - Was a high school coach in Arizona before being named D League coach
Jordi Fernandez - Canton - Player Development Coach with Cleveland from 2009-13
Kevin Young - Delaware - head coach of the Shamrock Rovers Hoops in the 2006-07 Irish Super League season. Before that, Young spent time as an assistant coach at both Utah Valley State University and Oxford College.

I could go on. Not exactly a who's who in coaching.

 

[realorange]

Yeah, screw the worthless fans. TE did not owe the school anything for his success. It was all him.

Ennis came to Syracuse to be part of a good basketball program that would enhance his way into the NBA. He did not come to make fans happy.

 

[Fireball Jr.]

So, I'm going to ignore this whole draft stock thing, because there's a funnier and more inherently wrong argument that went on in this thread.

Plain and simple, if you don't like the NBA, or you make any argument against the NBA by saying that college plays more team ball, or the games matter more, or other random crap, you're not a basketball fan. Plain and simple. I don't mind people that have a preference for college that has basis in reality. Such as caring more about an alma mater than a franchise not located by them, or anything like that. But if you're going to trash the NBA and say it has worse coaching, defense, attitude, whatever, you're not a basketball fan, you're an idiot.

Maybe people just never bothered to look again after the dark age of a decade ago when the NBA was mired in rock fights and a talent bubble, but the NBA right now is far and away the best basketball you can watch anywhere, period. It has the best coaching, the most varied coaching, the best players, the best assemblage of talent in the world, and overall just the best talent.

Conversely, were it not for Syracuse I could not give less than a s*** about college basketball. It's freaking terrible. The pace is atrocious, there is more of that "me" ball than in the NBA, the refereeing is a joke and not properly managed by the NCAA or conferences, the lack of innovation is mind boggling, and it hasn't progressed as a form in over a decade. Outside of a small handful of teams and games a night you're getting a ton of rock fights and cynicism.

Go look at an NCAA basketball game from a decade, 15 years ago. The game barely looks any different in a meta sense. It is stagnant, if anything it regressed. Meanwhile you compare the NBA now to 10-15 years ago and the amount of innovation and difference is astounding, and it continues to push forward and challenge the status quo. College basketball is in a rut, and you can blame the player culture and whatever and yeah, it has some effect but college coaching is garbage right now. It's horribly stagnant and part of the reason is because there has barely been any change in the "guard" of legendary coaches. Note I'm not making some Boeheim retirement spiel, just that the same big personalities and trendsetters are still there and going and look to continue to be going strong. The only new blood is what, Calipari? After he came back from the wilds of the NBA?

So, in summation, the NBA offers the best basketball anything on the planet, if your preference for college is because of a reason that isn't rooting interest related or some other off court reason, you're full of it or willfully ignorant, and College Basketball is where innovation has gone to die.

Oh, and yeah, Ennis made the right decision. But that's for himself to validate, not a bunch of middle aged superfans with a vested interest elsewhere to decide. And Carmelo and them can talk about wanting to go back and everything but in the end that's nostalgia and shouldn't be taken at face value.

Mazel tov, Czar, you nailed it. Greatest players from around the world, not just the USA. An array of exciting, gifted point guards as great collectively as there's ever been (Westbrook, Lillard, Curry, Irving, Lowry, CP3, Wall, Teague, Tony Parker, Rose, et al). Off top of my head, I can think of 15 top-tier teams in The Association, and even the underachievers (e.g., the Knicks, lost in OT at Sacramento last time) can be exciting, entertaining and impressive.

I can't imagine true futbol fans saying they find the Premier League boring, that they prefer to watch the Rochester Rhinos or Hobart College than ManU, etc.

 

[tbonezone]

The NBA is boring.

thus the steady and persistent ratings decline. the people have spoken : ncaa>nba.

 

[rrlbees]

Mazel tov, Czar, you nailed it. Greatest players from around the world, not just the USA. An array of exciting, gifted point guards as great collectively as there's ever been (Westbrook, Lillard, Curry, Irving, Lowry, CP3, Wall, Teague, Tony Parker, Rose, et al). Off top of my head, I can think of 15 top-tier teams in The Association, and even the underachievers (e.g., the Knicks, lost in OT at Sacramento last time) can be exciting, entertaining and impressive. I can't imagine true futbol fans saying they find the Premier League boring, that they prefer to watch the Rochester Rhinos or Hobart College than ManU, etc. YouTube Video

Boring doesn't have to be defined by skill level.

And BTW, I would rather watch Hobart than ManU. I know one of their players very well. Gives me a rooting interest.

 

[Alsacs]

The NBA regular season is way too long but the product is so much better than college basketball its unbelievable this is unlike college football because players stay a minimum of 3 years.

Watch any NBA game involving two of the top 10 teams in the Western conference and your going to get an entertaining game. The NBA this year is having a wide open year with Lebron leaving Miami the East is up for grabs between Toronto, Washington. Atlanta, Chicago, Cleveland and the West is so deep and injuries are going to cause the Los Angeles Clippers, San Antonio Spurs, and Oklahoma City Thunder in some combination to end up being the 6th thru 8th seeds out West.

College basketball outside of having skin in the game is hard to watch. I don't get why ISO offense is prevalent over having ball movement on offense in the NBA it atleast makes sense with superstars but not in college.

Basing the NBA off the Knicks performance is not fair. I am a Celtics fan and their coach has studied San Antonio's slash/spacing offense and implemted it in Boston. The C's are fun high scoring team who can't defend the rim but its fun basketball.

Besides the Duke game last year and the 6 OT UConn game I can't remember many fun well played games. I root for SU more than I watch the NBA but the college game is not well played. The Indiana-Georgetown game except the final outcome was a fun well played good game to watch. More games are ending in the 50's than 70's for the winning team it seems.

 

[Bayside44]

Yes they do. NBA staffs are bigger than college staffs and they have assistant coaches who are in player development roles. On game days, a guy like Ennis will stay longer and work on his game with these coaches. I don't understand this notion that the NBA staffs are smaller and don't have the tools to develop players?

I think it's safe to assume that Ennis and Grant are spending twice as much time on basketball than they would be doing in Syracuse. Boeheim has been on record saying that once they get in conference, he rarely practices for more than 90 minutes, so it's not as if Ennis would be getting more development at SU.

Ennis plays for 2 different teams, one in the minor leagues riding a bus. I cannot imagine a worse situation at his age.

 

[Fireball Jr.]

Boring doesn't have to be defined by skill level.

And BTW, I would rather watch Hobart than ManU. I know one of their players very well. Gives me a rooting interest.

Did I say Hobart? I meant to say Houghton.

 

[SWC75]

Boring doesn't have to be defined by skill level.

And BTW, I would rather watch Hobart than ManU. I know one of their players very well. Gives me a rooting interest.

I agree that skill level isn't enough. it would be in Golf where I'd rather watch the Masters, (or even any PGA tournament) than the Post Standard Amateur. Basketball is a team sport and team play is better than one on one play. But even a college fan like me has to admit that the college game has faded badly and the great games are fewer and farther between. And I'm sure the NBA has gotten better. The problem is as a life-long college fan in a college town, I don't watch enough of it to be the judge of that, (and will thus defer to those who do).

It doesn't create a desire for me to stay up late and watch a superior brand of basketball. It creates a desire to see college ball get better. I would suggest eliminating eligibility roadblocks that prevent players from staying or returning, including cost of living stipends with scholarships and eliminating the three point line so that players would seek open shots rather than just threes and drives to the basket. Have all incoming recurits look at tapes of Lawrence Moten. We could use some Motenball.

 

[Bayside44]

Warrick went 18th in 2005 he didn't improve his draft position. I remember ESPN insider had an article after our 2003 NC that had Warrick as a lottery pick if he declared in 03.
Players who leave want to play professional basketball these players owe their college fan bases and HCs nothing.

And he had no game then - unless you count weak side baskets with everyone on D caving on Melo. He developed a nice game and had a solid and well paid NBA career.

 

[SWC75]

Mazel tov, Czar, you nailed it. Greatest players from around the world, not just the USA. An array of exciting, gifted point guards as great collectively as there's ever been (Westbrook, Lillard, Curry, Irving, Lowry, CP3, Wall, Teague, Tony Parker, Rose, et al). Off top of my head, I can think of 15 top-tier teams in The Association, and even the underachievers (e.g., the Knicks, lost in OT at Sacramento last time) can be exciting, entertaining and impressive.

I can't imagine true futbol fans saying they find the Premier League boring, that they prefer to watch the Rochester Rhinos or Hobart College than ManU, etc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CO1tv_gcac

And that was a regular season game on the road.

 

[rrlbees]

Did I say Hobart? I meant to say Houghton.

You got me there then.

 

[HOFCeluck]

You had me at "I honestly can't think" ... But then you cemented it with "I can easily rattle off a few" ...Not a lot but a few... Please tell me you had a few ( OK a lot ) too many drinks before posting this... too much eggnog or something... anything to mitigate this "thought" ..

Sorry...were you going to back up your thinly veiled personal attacks with anything solid?

 

[Dave85]

Ennis came to Syracuse to be part of a good basketball program that would enhance his way into the NBA. He did not come to make fans happy.

Yes, I agree, he will never be fan favorite. Basketball is a team sport.

 

[AlpharettaCuse]

Seriously? It makes a HUGE difference.

It does? How? You said you couldnt think of one player that stayed and improved their draft prospects. I gave you a bunch, none of which you can dispute. I can point to every single draft and find a few players that improved their draft stock by staying. Do you really think Georgi Dieng was going to be drafted in the Top 25 after his sophomore season?

 

[HOFCeluck]

It does? How? You said you couldnt think of one player that stayed and improved their draft prospects. I gave you a bunch, none of which you can dispute. I can point to every single draft and find a few players that improved their draft stock by staying. Do you really think Georgi Dieng was going to be drafted in the Top 25 after his sophomore season?

In order to improve your draft prospects, they have to be present in the first place. Of course guys like Dieng and Napier stayed three and four years. Where else err they going to go?

 

[Cowtown]

So, I'm going to ignore this whole draft stock thing, because there's a funnier and more inherently wrong argument that went on in this thread.

Plain and simple, if you don't like the NBA, or you make any argument against the NBA by saying that college plays more team ball, or the games matter more, or other random crap, you're not a basketball fan. Plain and simple. I don't mind people that have a preference for college that has basis in reality. Such as caring more about an alma mater than a franchise not located by them, or anything like that. But if you're going to trash the NBA and say it has worse coaching, defense, attitude, whatever, you're not a basketball fan, you're an idiot.

Maybe people just never bothered to look again after the dark age of a decade ago when the NBA was mired in rock fights and a talent bubble, but the NBA right now is far and away the best basketball you can watch anywhere, period. It has the best coaching, the most varied coaching, the best players, the best assemblage of talent in the world, and overall just the best talent.

Conversely, were it not for Syracuse I could not give less than a s*** about college basketball. It's freaking terrible. The pace is atrocious, there is more of that "me" ball than in the NBA, the refereeing is a joke and not properly managed by the NCAA or conferences, the lack of innovation is mind boggling, and it hasn't progressed as a form in over a decade. Outside of a small handful of teams and games a night you're getting a ton of rock fights and cynicism.

Go look at an NCAA basketball game from a decade, 15 years ago. The game barely looks any different in a meta sense. It is stagnant, if anything it regressed. Meanwhile you compare the NBA now to 10-15 years ago and the amount of innovation and difference is astounding, and it continues to push forward and challenge the status quo. College basketball is in a rut, and you can blame the player culture and whatever and yeah, it has some effect but college coaching is garbage right now. It's horribly stagnant and part of the reason is because there has barely been any change in the "guard" of legendary coaches. Note I'm not making some Boeheim retirement spiel, just that the same big personalities and trendsetters are still there and going and look to continue to be going strong. The only new blood is what, Calipari? After he came back from the wilds of the NBA?

So, in summation, the NBA offers the best basketball anything on the planet, if your preference for college is because of a reason that isn't rooting interest related or some other off court reason, you're full of it or willfully ignorant, and College Basketball is where innovation has gone to die.

Oh, and yeah, Ennis made the right decision. But that's for himself to validate, not a bunch of middle aged superfans with a vested interest elsewhere to decide. And Carmelo and them can talk about wanting to go back and everything but in the end that's nostalgia and shouldn't be taken at face value.

Like the song says, "Stop right there ..." The NBA is less about basketball than it is about making money with a basketball. If you don't understand the difference, I don't think you really know what's going on out there. The driving engine of the NBA is the "star system." The stars sell tickets, jackets & jerseys, draw people to the concessions, and generate television revenue. Thus the rules, officiating, playing styles, coaching styles together are aimed at promoting the stars; each and every part of it and all of it in concert. That means the stars get all the calls. Anyone who doesn't see that, might consider watching something other than the ball. Half the league can't score without traveling and it's simply ignored. Officials are told very clearly what calls they can and cannot make, because if it's revealed that the NBA's "stars" lack the skills of the average HS kid, their fans will soon discover the emperor needs a better wardrobe. And soon neither he nor his minions will have a bank account. Yes, the "star system" works for the NBA, I'm not disputing that. I saw what the league was in the 60's, saw it nearly die in the 70's, and saw it pulled back from the brink of the thug ball abyss by two legitimate stars, Larry Bird/Magic Johnson. The league learned that lesson well, and today their legacy, the star culture, is carefully cultivated and preserved.

Apparently you like the tinsel and glitter where others don't. Fine, but stop trying to tell others that because the NBA does not interest them that they're "not basketball fans." That's just fatuous arrogance. It seems to me you believe attaching yourself to the NBA somehow validates your opinion over others. Well, it doesn't. I played and reffed at the college level and coached many years at the HS level. There's always something more to learn out there, and IMO one learns much more watching college ball than pro. I'm comfortable with what I believe basketball to be and what it's not, and I use my own eyes and ears to make up my own mind on that.

 

[realorange]

Yes, I agree, he will never be fan favorite. Basketball is a team sport.

I didn't say he wouldn't be a fan favorite. Just replying to your comment of "screw the worthless fans." That was not Tyler's thinking either.

 

[SarasotaPaul]

Sorry...were you going to back up your thinly veiled personal attacks with anything solid?

Not really... The problem with the internet (and I do know it) is that tongue in cheek ribbing with a big smile, doesn't always come across as such. Anyway there was absolutely no attempt at veiling anything. It was a long day and I have George Carlin type outbursts of partially reading things and using them literally in twisted versions, oft times going entirely against the intent from which they were delivered.

If I were to answer in a serious vein, I would however, wonder how you can possibly not know of any player that bettered themselves by staying while looking at the 2 from last year (from SU) that would have bettered themselves playing wise. Now, given that I can not read someone else's mind, you very well may not have the ability to remember anyone that bettered themselves. Some only remember positives, others only negatives and the some only remember selectively. I found it highly unlikely that someone posting on this board could seriously not think of anyone that stayed and vastly improved their status. So I chuckled and busted your chops a bit. Again not always something one should do via internet.

Please keep in mind that I do not take myself too seriously most of the time. This carries over to how I usually take others as well. I would rather joke around, grin, have a beer or two with most everyone on this board, than to personally attack them.

 

[Cowtown]

Not really... The problem with the internet (and I do know it) is that tongue in cheek ribbing with a big smile, doesn't always come across as such. Anyway there was absolutely no attempt at veiling anything. It was a long day and I have George Carlin type outbursts of partially reading things and using them literally in twisted versions, oft times going entirely against the intent from which they were delivered.

If I were to answer in a serious vein, I would however, wonder how you can possibly not know of any player that bettered themselves by staying while looking at the 2 from last year (from SU) that would have bettered themselves playing wise. Now, given that I can not read someone else's mind, you very well may not have the ability to remember anyone that bettered themselves. Some only remember positives, others only negatives and the some only remember selectively. I found it highly unlikely that someone posting on this board could seriously not think of anyone that stayed and vastly improved their status. So I chuckled and busted your chops a bit. Again not always something one should do via internet.

Please keep in mind that I do not take myself too seriously most of the time. This carries over to how I usually take others as well. I would rather joke around, grin, have a beer or two with most everyone on this board, than to personally attack them.