Ennis headed back to the D-League. 2 questions ?

[br801]

So your argument is that he needed to game the scouts because he would never be good enough? I think he could become good enough, but clearly isn't today.

I never suggested that. My argument was that there were legitimate reasons why his draft stock could fall by returning (reasons that would apply to any player in his position) and that he had to weigh that against leaving and getting paid to play right now.

 

[Alsacs]

Honestly the same arguments get made time after time. Rookies in the NBA don't typically contribute right away. It has taken 3 years for an insane talent like Anthony Davis to flourish into a top 10 NBA player. Last year he made a leap from his rookie year to all-star talent.

These kids have every right to leave and we should support their pursuit of their dreams. Marcus Smart stayed an extra year 2 years ago and what did that accomplish for him? He had that incident at Texas Tech and he isn't exactly lighting it up in the NBA as a rookie. Tyler Ennis is getting paid to develop and learn an NBA system not play basketball for free and pursue an education.

These kids owe SU, Jim Boeheim, us fans NOTHING except to play hard, stay out of trouble, and maintain eligibility while they play basketball. They should all declare for the draft that is what they want to do.

 

[Full_Rebar]

You think an NBA staff is spending a ton of time working with the 15th or so guy on the roster when they need to win that night? Our guys get all the meals they want from the team, they aren't surviving on chicken wings.

Baseball has even changed, Triple A is for the guys that are subs, the talent goes from AA to the majors. This big time guys spend minimal time there.

Yes they do. NBA staffs are bigger than college staffs and they have assistant coaches who are in player development roles. On game days, a guy like Ennis will stay longer and work on his game with these coaches. I don't understand this notion that the NBA staffs are smaller and don't have the tools to develop players?

I think it's safe to assume that Ennis and Grant are spending twice as much time on basketball than they would be doing in Syracuse. Boeheim has been on record saying that once they get in conference, he rarely practices for more than 90 minutes, so it's not as if Ennis would be getting more development at SU.

 

[AlpharettaCuse]

I honestly can't think of a single guy who stayed in school and improved his prospects. I can easily rattle off a few names who did the opposite.

what is he going to get better at by staying at syracuse? Zone defense?

Etan Thomas and Hakim Warrick both did. I can easily rattle of a dozen kids who left early and are were out of the league or not drafted at all.

 

[Alsacs]

Etan Thomas and Hakim Warrick both did. I can easily rattle of a dozen kids who left early and are were out of the league or not drafted at all.

Warrick went 18th in 2005 he didn't improve his draft position. I remember ESPN insider had an article after our 2003 NC that had Warrick as a lottery pick if he declared in 03.
Players who leave want to play professional basketball these players owe their college fan bases and HCs nothing.

 

[HOFCeluck]

Etan Thomas and Hakim Warrick both did. I can easily rattle of a dozen kids who left early and are were out of the league or not drafted at all.

Thomas I can't recall was ever considered adraft prospect before his senior year.

Warrick probably went at about the same spite he would have had he declared after his junior year.

Either way...you had to go back ten years to find examples to come close to supporting your point.

 

[AlpharettaCuse]

Warrick went 18th in 2005 he didn't improve his draft position. I remember ESPN insider had an article after our 2003 NC that had Warrick as a lottery pick if he declared in 03.
Players who leave want to play professional basketball these players owe their college fan bases and HCs nothing.

There's no way Warrick would have been a lottery pick after his sophomore or junior years.

 

[AlpharettaCuse]

Thomas I can't recall was ever considered adraft prospect before his senior year.

Warrick probably went at about the same spite he would have had he declared after his junior year.

Either way...you had to go back ten years to find examples to come close to supporting your point.

Shabazz Napier and Doug McDermott. Kelly Olnyck from Gonzaga. Victor Oladipo. Mason Plumlee. CJ McCollum. Georgi Deng. I'd say they all improved their draft stock by playing 3-4 years in college.

 

[jncuse]

Players typically get sent down to D League when teams are on long road trips, and the player has no chance to practice with the team and the assistants are away from the home court for a while.

I think most NBA teams would choose college over an entire season in D League. But they would also choose spending the season with the NBA team over college. They only send players to the D League when the learning resources are limited on road trips, and its good time to just get the player some floor time.

To say NBA coaches don't care about the 13th-15th man that are rookies. They realize GM's value first round draft choices and who they used them on. Of course they are going to dedicate many teaching resources to those kids.

 

[AlpharettaCuse]

[QUOTE="To say NBA coaches don't care about the 13th-15th man that are rookies. They realize GM's value first round draft choices and who they used them on. Of course they are going to dedicate many teaching resources to those kids.[/QUOTE]

I think they care to an extent. The Celtics gave up on Fab Melo pretty quickly. The Timberwolves gave up on Wes Johnson fairly early, and he was their top pick in the draft.

 

[Ghost]

He was NEVER going to get drafted higher than he did. He was NEVER going to learn more at SU. What he needs can't be taught: more height and quickness. Staying longer would have just taken the shine off, and put him into the 2nd Rd or free agency when he left.
From a basketball/money perspective, his decision was as right as Grant's was wrong.

Yeah, that echoes my thoughts on this from the time they each declared. Obviously, you never know, but Grant seemed to be in a position to shine this year - and could have really helped himself imo. Ennis, I'm not sure he could have done better. You never do know, but I'm all for striking while the iron is hot.

 

[Dave85]

What could he have improved on staying another year that he wouldn't have by focusing 100% of his time and efforts on basketball and counting tr zeros on his paycheck? Ah yes, Syracuse/Duke is more important to everything. I'm willing to bet that CJ Fair would have rather of gone 0-30 and be a first round pick than having the success and stardom he did at Syracuse.

Let's see what happens after the first contract is over. I think he should have waited one more year to build up his strength. He wasn't seriously ready to play in the NBA in my opinion. If we lost the first Duke game TE would have been here another year.

 

[HOFCeluck]

Shabazz Napier and Doug McDermott. Kelly Olnyck from Gonzaga. Victor Oladipo. Mason Plumlee. CJ McCollum. Georgi Deng. I'd say they all improved their draft stock by playing 3-4 years in college.

I'm too lazy to look it up, so I don't know abou most of those guys, TBH.

I do know that Napier wasn't a legit prospect at any time prior to the end of his senior year. He HAD to stay for four years.

 

[HOFCeluck]

If we lost the first Duke game TE would have been here another year.

Id take that bet.

 

[Cheriehoop]

I honestly can't think of a single guy who stayed in school and improved his prospects. I can easily rattle off a few names who did the opposite.

what is he going to get better at by staying at syracuse? Zone defense?

Jason Hart, Louis Orr, Rosie Bouie, Etan Thomas, Hakim Warrick, Derrick Coleman, Carmelo Anthony, Sherman Douglas, Wes Johnson, Demetrius Nichols, Andy Rautins, James Southerland, John Wallace, Dave Johnson etc.

 

[Alsacs]

Jason Hart, Louis Orr, Rosie Bouie, Etan Thomas, Hakim Warrick, Derrick Coleman, Carmelo Anthony, Sherman Douglas, Wes Johnson, Demetrius Nichols, Andy Rautins, James Southerland, John Wallace, Dave Johnson etc.

To be fair Melo and Wes Johnson only played 1 year at SU.

Most if those players either played in a different era or weren't solid first round picks when they remained.
DC/ Orr/Sherman played in an era where Michael Jordan stayed in school 3 years, Pat Ewing/Larry Bird stayed 4 years, Magic Johnson/Isiah Thomas stayed 2 years and were considered radicals.
In today's CBB if your a first round pick your staying 1 or 2 years sadly.

 

[HOFCeluck]

Maybe people are just misunderstanding what I said?

Players who are considered legit draft prospects, stay, and improve their draft position.

 

[Czar]

So, I'm going to ignore this whole draft stock thing, because there's a funnier and more inherently wrong argument that went on in this thread.

Plain and simple, if you don't like the NBA, or you make any argument against the NBA by saying that college plays more team ball, or the games matter more, or other random crap, you're not a basketball fan. Plain and simple. I don't mind people that have a preference for college that has basis in reality. Such as caring more about an alma mater than a franchise not located by them, or anything like that. But if you're going to trash the NBA and say it has worse coaching, defense, attitude, whatever, you're not a basketball fan, you're an idiot.

Maybe people just never bothered to look again after the dark age of a decade ago when the NBA was mired in rock fights and a talent bubble, but the NBA right now is far and away the best basketball you can watch anywhere, period. It has the best coaching, the most varied coaching, the best players, the best assemblage of talent in the world, and overall just the best talent.

Conversely, were it not for Syracuse I could not give less than a s*** about college basketball. It's freaking terrible. The pace is atrocious, there is more of that "me" ball than in the NBA, the refereeing is a joke and not properly managed by the NCAA or conferences, the lack of innovation is mind boggling, and it hasn't progressed as a form in over a decade. Outside of a small handful of teams and games a night you're getting a ton of rock fights and cynicism.

Go look at an NCAA basketball game from a decade, 15 years ago. The game barely looks any different in a meta sense. It is stagnant, if anything it regressed. Meanwhile you compare the NBA now to 10-15 years ago and the amount of innovation and difference is astounding, and it continues to push forward and challenge the status quo. College basketball is in a rut, and you can blame the player culture and whatever and yeah, it has some effect but college coaching is garbage right now. It's horribly stagnant and part of the reason is because there has barely been any change in the "guard" of legendary coaches. Note I'm not making some Boeheim retirement spiel, just that the same big personalities and trendsetters are still there and going and look to continue to be going strong. The only new blood is what, Calipari? After he came back from the wilds of the NBA?

So, in summation, the NBA offers the best basketball anything on the planet, if your preference for college is because of a reason that isn't rooting interest related or some other off court reason, you're full of it or willfully ignorant, and College Basketball is where innovation has gone to die.

Oh, and yeah, Ennis made the right decision. But that's for himself to validate, not a bunch of middle aged superfans with a vested interest elsewhere to decide. And Carmelo and them can talk about wanting to go back and everything but in the end that's nostalgia and shouldn't be taken at face value.

 

[rrlbees]

So, I'm going to ignore this whole draft stock thing, because there's a funnier and more inherently wrong argument that went on in this thread. Plain and simple, if you don't like the NBA, or you make any argument against the NBA by saying that college plays more team ball, or the games matter more, or other random crap, you're not a basketball fan. Plain and simple. I don't mind people that have a preference for college that has basis in reality. Such as caring more about an alma mater than a franchise not located by them, or anything like that. But if you're going to trash the NBA and say it has worse coaching, defense, attitude, whatever, you're not a basketball fan, you're an idiot. Maybe people just never bothered to look again after the dark age of a decade ago when the NBA was mired in rock fights and a talent bubble, but the NBA right now is far and away the best basketball you can watch anywhere, period. It has the best coaching, the most varied coaching, the best players, the best assemblage of talent in the world, and overall just the best talent. Conversely, were it not for Syracuse I could not give less than a s*** about college basketball. It's freaking terrible. The pace is atrocious, there is more of that "me" ball than in the NBA, the refereeing is a joke and not properly managed by the NCAA or conferences, the lack of innovation is mind boggling, and it hasn't progressed as a form in over a decade. Outside of a small handful of teams and games a night you're getting a ton of rock fights and cynicism. Go look at an NCAA basketball game from a decade, 15 years ago. The game barely looks any different in a meta sense. It is stagnant, if anything it regressed. Meanwhile you compare the NBA now to 10-15 years ago and the amount of innovation and difference is astounding, and it continues to push forward and challenge the status quo. College basketball is in a rut, and you can blame the player culture and whatever and yeah, it has some effect but college coaching is garbage right now. It's horribly stagnant and part of the reason is because there has barely been any change in the "guard" of legendary coaches. Note I'm not making some Boeheim retirement spiel, just that the same big personalities and trendsetters are still there and going and look to continue to be going strong. The only new blood is what, Calipari? After he came back from the wilds of the NBA? So, in summation, the NBA offers the best basketball anything on the planet, if your preference for college is because of a reason that isn't rooting interest related or some other off court reason, you're full of it or willfully ignorant, and College Basketball is where innovation has gone to die. Oh, and yeah, Ennis made the right decision. But that's for himself to validate, not a bunch of middle aged superfans with a vested interest elsewhere to decide. And Carmelo and them can talk about wanting to go back and everything but in the end that's nostalgia and shouldn't be taken at face value.

The NBA is boring.

 

[Dave85]

To be fair Melo and Wes Johnson only played 1 year at SU.

Most if those players either played in a different era or weren't solid first round picks when they remained.
DC/ Orr/Sherman played in an era where Michael Jordan stayed in school 3 years, Pat Ewing/Larry Bird stayed 4 years, Magic Johnson/Isiah Thomas stayed 2 years and were considered radicals.
In today's CBB if your a first round pick your staying 1 or 2 years sadly.

I wish they would make it like baseball or football and make players stay in school for at least 2 years.

 

[Czar]

The NBA is boring.

Then I perish the thought of what you think of college basketball that doesn't involve Syracuse. The headline game of the day involved two teams shooting a combined 33% with little over 1 turnover a minute. Meanwhile the best NBA game of the day featured two teams that combined to shoot 46% while featuring two of the best players on the planet in Anthony Davis and Derrick Rose,

 

[Dave85]

Oh, and yeah, Ennis made the right decision. But that's for himself to validate, not a bunch of middle aged superfans with a vested interest elsewhere to decide.

Yeah, screw the worthless fans. TE did not owe the school anything for his success. It was all him.

 

[AlpharettaCuse]

I'm too lazy to look it up, so I don't know abou most of those guys, TBH.

I do know that Napier wasn't a legit prospect at any time prior to the end of his senior year. He HAD to stay for four years.

What difference does it make? Staying 3-4 years helped them improve and get drafted higher than they would have been had they come out earlier. They all certainly helped improve their stock by staying.

 

[AlpharettaCuse]

Maybe people are just misunderstanding what I said?

Players who are considered legit draft prospects, stay, and improve their draft position.

Considered legit draft projects by whom? The mock draft writers that don't have a clue?

 

[sufandu]

So, I'm going to ignore this whole draft stock thing, because there's a funnier and more inherently wrong argument that went on in this thread.

Plain and simple, if you don't like the NBA, or you make any argument against the NBA by saying that college plays more team ball, or the games matter more, or other random crap, you're not a basketball fan. Plain and simple. I don't mind people that have a preference for college that has basis in reality. Such as caring more about an alma mater than a franchise not located by them, or anything like that. But if you're going to trash the NBA and say it has worse coaching, defense, attitude, whatever, you're not a basketball fan, you're an idiot.

Maybe people just never bothered to look again after the dark age of a decade ago when the NBA was mired in rock fights and a talent bubble, but the NBA right now is far and away the best basketball you can watch anywhere, period. It has the best coaching, the most varied coaching, the best players, the best assemblage of talent in the world, and overall just the best talent.

Conversely, were it not for Syracuse I could not give less than a s*** about college basketball. It's freaking terrible. The pace is atrocious, there is more of that "me" ball than in the NBA, the refereeing is a joke and not properly managed by the NCAA or conferences, the lack of innovation is mind boggling, and it hasn't progressed as a form in over a decade. Outside of a small handful of teams and games a night you're getting a ton of rock fights and cynicism.

Go look at an NCAA basketball game from a decade, 15 years ago. The game barely looks any different in a meta sense. It is stagnant, if anything it regressed. Meanwhile you compare the NBA now to 10-15 years ago and the amount of innovation and difference is astounding, and it continues to push forward and challenge the status quo. College basketball is in a rut, and you can blame the player culture and whatever and yeah, it has some effect but college coaching is garbage right now. It's horribly stagnant and part of the reason is because there has barely been any change in the "guard" of legendary coaches. Note I'm not making some Boeheim retirement spiel, just that the same big personalities and trendsetters are still there and going and look to continue to be going strong. The only new blood is what, Calipari? After he came back from the wilds of the NBA?

So, in summation, the NBA offers the best basketball anything on the planet, if your preference for college is because of a reason that isn't rooting interest related or some other off court reason, you're full of it or willfully ignorant, and College Basketball is where innovation has gone to die.

Oh, and yeah, Ennis made the right decision. But that's for himself to validate, not a bunch of middle aged superfans with a vested interest elsewhere to decide. And Carmelo and them can talk about wanting to go back and everything but in the end that's nostalgia and shouldn't be taken at face value.

I can agree with some of what you're saying here. I disagree with the bolded part though. I don't know that you can blame coaching when nearly every player that has any kind of talent is gone after a year or two at best, and, therefore coaches don't get to develop them. Somebody mentioned how Anthony Davis has taken 3 years to become one of the best players in the league. If he and a large percentage of players with similar talent left the NBA after only one year before anyone got to see their talent develop, the NBA would be completely unwatchable too. The main problem with the college game is the lack of talent and there is nothing that the powers that be can do about it. They can only hope that the NBA decides that what's best for the league is to extend the waiting period for entering the league.