ESPN 30 for 30 on the 1986 Mets

[Briancuse]

Ok Cards fan.

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

There is member of the Syracuse Mets organization on this board, FYI.

 

[Day2]

There is member of the Syracuse Mets organization on this board, FYI.

Makes no difference to me.

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

Makes no difference to me.

There is no holding back class.

 

[KaiserUEO]

There is member of the Syracuse Mets organization on this board, FYI.

Why would that matter?

 

[Briancuse]

There is member of the Syracuse Mets organization on this board, FYI.

Really? It's not Jeff Wilpon is it?

 

[Day2]

There is no holding back class.

You must be new to this whole sports thing.

 

[Hoo's That]

I don't care what anyone says, Mookie had the had it beat out because he was ahead of Stanley who was trying to cover. The only difference is that the run wouldn't have scored.

 

[Briancuse]

I don't care what anyone says, Mookie had the had it beat out because he was ahead of Stanley who was trying to cover. The only difference is that the run wouldn't have scored.

Mookie had it all the way. Had. Buckner got it I wonder if they send Knight and make Buckner throw him out. Probably not but the Mets had all the momentum.

 

[jncuse]

Ha, good point. Buckner, Mark Grace, John Olerud - those guys were around forever and would probably have no place in todays game.

They are not really comparable players.

Buckner had a .321 career OBP
Olerud had a .398 career OBP.
Grace had a .383 career OBP

Yes, they were all high average, modest power, good glove types (I think Buckner was but I could be wrong). But Grace and Olerud did one thing well, that Buckner did not - draw walks. And that would make a major difference in how they are perceived value wise today.

Olerud and Grace would still be starters today. Buckner no.

 

[jncuse]

Heard Ron Darling say he knew it was time to retire in Oakland when guys were working out postgame and not going out to hit the bars.

I wish he had retired before the Montreal Expos had traded for him in the summer of 1991. He was terrible for the Expos.

 

[jncuse]

Sort of off-topic (but it does relate to Buckner), but from 1984 to 1988, (as a 9 to 13 year old) I was a devoted reader of Bill James Baseball Abstract. I would imagine James thought Buckner was a bit overrated at the time.

At the time, I was probably the only 10 or 11 year old that would argue with his friends that a certain100 RBI guy was overrated because they did not draw walks and help those behind him. The one thing I learned from reading Bill James at the time was that secondary average as he called it was very important (walks, extra base hits), and that low on base singles hitters were overrated It was really pretty basis concepts that set the plate for more advanced stats stuff later on.

With other interests and priorities in my life by the 1990s, I never really got into the advanced stat movement, but they are still largely built off what can you do more than just singles and an empty batting average. And that getting on base is very important.

 

[donniesyracuse]

With other interests and priorities in my life by the 1990s, I never really got into the advanced stat movement, but they are still largely built off what can you do more than just singles and an empty batting average. And that getting on base is very important.

Yes, the other important part of advanced stats is attempting to control for luck and other factors outside of a player’s control. .

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

You must be new to this whole sports thing.

I'm no longer 15 years old

 

[Day2]

I'm no longer 15 years old

Well, I wasn’t quite 15 years old in 1986 when “the Mets are pond scum” was a meme. Perfectly relevant for this thread. And I’m sure the Mets exec can handle it.

Speaking of 1986, you remind me of Ed Rooney.

 

[sutomcat]

ESPN Films Planning Multi-Part 30 for 30 on ‘86 Mets

ESPN Films today announced the group is in production on an upcoming project centered on the 1986 Mets, one of baseball’s most dominant and iconoclastic teams, whose legendary World Series comeback was merely the climax of an epic tale of ambition and swagger set in a city that was synonymous...

espnpressroom.com

It was an interesting cast of characters on that team. I know a lot of craziness went on behind the scenes. Should make for a great documentary.

 

[Hoo's That]

Yes, the other important part of advanced stats is attempting to control for luck and other factors outside of a player’s control ruining the game for people who just want to watch the game.

FIFY

 

[Knicks411]

They are not really comparable players.

Buckner had a .321 career OBP
Olerud had a .398 career OBP.
Grace had a .383 career OBP

Yes, they were all high average, modest power, good glove types (I think Buckner was but I could be wrong). But Grace and Olerud did one thing well, that Buckner did not - draw walks. And that would make a major difference in how they are perceived value wise today.

Olerud and Grace would still be starters today. Buckner no.

Olerud was a stud. His 98 season is an all time underrated great Met season. Super smooth player (well, great swing, slick fielding. The guy was also as slow as it gets) Was so disappointed he walked after 99 and they replaced him with Zeile.

 

[Briancuse]

Olerud was a stud. His 98 season is an all time underrated great Met season. Super smooth player (well, great swing, slick fielding. The guy was also as slow as it gets) Was so disappointed he walked after 99 and they replaced him with Zeile.

I hated losing olerud but Zeile was a pretty good Met.

 

[Knicks411]

I hated losing olerud but Zeile was a pretty good Met.

Yeah he was fine, Olerud was just my guy.

I loved the 99 team. So much fun. I was 15 years old at the time. Nothing better

 

[Briancuse]

Yeah he was fine, Olerud was just my guy.

I loved the 99 team. So much fun. I was 15 years old at the time. Nothing better

The 99 team was better than the 2000 team we just couldn't beat the Braves.

 

[MSOrange]

The 99 team was better than the 2000 team we just couldn't beat the Braves.

That was a trend I enjoyed

 

[jncuse]

I hated losing olerud but Zeile was a pretty good Met.

Zeile was OK in 2000... only slightly worse than Olerud (3.7 WAR vs 2.4 WAR)

But Zeile was not very good in 2001, and much worse than Olerud (5.2 vs 0.8). A .732 OPS hitting first baseman, in a very hitter friendly era is not going to get it done. The 2001 NL East was not that strong at the top and the difference of Zeile vs Olerud may have made the difference that year.

 

[Briancuse]

Zeile was OK in 2000... only slightly worse than Olerud (3.7 WAR vs 2.4 WAR)

But Zeile was not very good in 2001, and much worse than Olerud (5.2 vs 0.8). A .732 OPS hitting first baseman, in a very hitter friendly era is not going to get it done. The 2001 NL East was not that strong at the top and the difference of Zeile vs Olerud may have made the difference that year.

Benitez really cost the Mets in 01. He blew two huge saves down the stretch against the Braves. Had he not blown them the Mets might have finished off their miracle run and made the playoffs.