ESPN's Top 74 NBA players of all-time

[Alsacs]

Very much unrelated, but I can't believe Steve Nash won multiple MVPs

Nash was terrible on defense but I think he earned the 2006 MVP.
The 2005 MVP should have been Shaq as what he did going from LA to Miami was big. He wasn’t washed up in 2005.
It is unbelievable that Shaq only won 1 MVP with how dominant he was.
He should have the 2005 one.

 

[Knicks411]

Nash was terrible on defense but I think he earned the 2006 MVP.
The 2005 MVP should have been Shaq as what he did going from LA to Miami was big. He wasn’t washed up in 2005.
It is unbelievable that Shaq only won 1 MVP with how dominant he was.
He should have the 2005 one.

Yeah that is kind of the flip side of my Nash comment. As someone who lived through the Shaq career, it is kind of hard for me to believe he just got the 1 MVP. He only finished second twice as well. Before looking it up, I was going to say he should've beat iverson in 01 (which could still be true), but he actually finished third, with Duncan ahead of him.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Nash was terrible on defense but I think he earned the 2006 MVP.
The 2005 MVP should have been Shaq as what he did going from LA to Miami was big. He wasn’t washed up in 2005.
It is unbelievable that Shaq only won 1 MVP with how dominant he was.
He should have the 2005 one.

Ehh. He was 13th in the league in win shares. I don't think either earned it. Probably should have went to Dirk or Amare.

 

[Melancer46]

Very much unrelated, but I can't believe Steve Nash won multiple MVPs

I personally think he gets a lot more crap than he deserves. At worst he was deserving of one MVP but I think he has a very strong case for both. Nash is IMO the best PG ever from a purely offensive perspective.

 

[Knicks411]

I personally think he gets a lot more crap than he deserves. At worst he was deserving of one MVP but I think he has a very strong case for both. Nash is IMO the best PG ever from a purely offensive perspective.

I think he probably was (at least before Steph and Harden) but I just don't think I can get there to winning multiple MVPs. Maybe he did deserve one, I dunno. Maybe the league is just better now. I remember thinking at the time him winning both was a bad call, I can't remember exactly why and all the arguments pro and con, but like I said, my gut says he shouldn't have won both.

Also, fwiw, he was 55th in the league in MPG in 05, and 50th in 06. Awesome player, maybe the best offensive PG ever, but A) not great on defense and B) wasn't exactly playing a huge amount of minutes.

 

[NineOneSeven]

I think he probably was (at least before Steph and Harden) but I just don't think I can get there to winning multiple MVPs. Maybe he did deserve one, I dunno. Maybe the league is just better now. I remember thinking at the time him winning both was a bad call, I can't remember exactly why and all the arguments pro and con, but like I said, my gut says he shouldn't have won both.

Also, fwiw, he was 55th in the league in MPG in 05, and 50th in 06. Awesome player, maybe the best offensive PG ever, but A) not great on defense and B) wasn't exactly playing a huge amount of minutes.

2 is a stretch. In terms of his offensive game, his efficiency was off the charts.

 

[Alsacs]

I personally think he gets a lot more crap than he deserves. At worst he was deserving of one MVP but I think he has a very strong case for both. Nash is IMO the best PG ever from a purely offensive perspective.

You take Nash over Magic as an offensive PG?

I think Nash shot a higher percentage from 3 but that wasn’t Magic’s game.

It’s an interesting debate. If Nash had Popovich and Duncan protecting him like Tony Parker he definitely wins titles like Magic.

It’s an interesting thought Chris Paul might have an argument as the best offensive PG as well.

 

[Alsacs]

Ehh. He was 13th in the league in win shares. I don't think either earned it. Probably should have went to Dirk or Amare.

I didn’t use metrics on this one. Amare was on Nash’s team right? That kinda hurts Nash’s metric IMO.

Dirk got the MVP in 2006 but then choked against the Warriors that year.
Shaq brought the Heat legitimacy along with Wade’s development. If Wade doesn’t get hurt in the ECF that series could have swung.

 

[Melancer46]

You take Nash over Magic as an offensive PG?

I think Nash shot a higher percentage from 3 but that wasn’t Magic’s game.

It’s an interesting debate. If Nash had Popovich and Duncan protecting him like Tony Parker he definitely wins titles like Magic.

It’s an interesting thought Chris Paul might have an argument as the best offensive PG as well.

For me, yes. If not for Steph, Nash would have a strong case for being the best shooter ever IMO and he is the best passer/ball-handler/floor general that I've ever seen. And was also an elite finisher around the rim.

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

I hear you, but the flip side of that argument is that some "second-best players" could likely have been alphas on other teams and accumulated way more individual accolades, but they sacrificed stats in order to win championships. Examples: McHale, Pippen, Worthy, Klay Thompson.

I don't know about Pippen. He always seemed perfect to me as the next guy. Not sure he could have created enough offense on his own to be "the guy". As I recall it (could be wrong) he was not a good jump shooter. Could be streaky, but you would give him the 3 point shot.

 

[Gabjon]

Giannis can certainly be lower on the list, but he absolutely has to be on the list somewhere. In about a month, he'll be one of like 13 players ever to win multiple MVPs and has a good chance to become one of like 5 players all-time to win an MVP and DPOY.

Penny Hardaway and Grant Hill are not on this list, because injuries derailed their careers. You can't be top 74 (weird number to chose) if you haven't had a 10 year career, there have been too many great players for that.

 

[Knicks411]

You take Nash over Magic as an offensive PG?

I think Nash shot a higher percentage from 3 but that wasn’t Magic’s game.

It’s an interesting debate. If Nash had Popovich and Duncan protecting him like Tony Parker he definitely wins titles like Magic.

It’s an interesting thought Chris Paul might have an argument as the best offensive PG as well.

Here is the argument for Nash as the best offensive PG ever.

I pulled down the offensive rating for every team, and compared it to the league average for that season, to see which teams exceeded the average by the highest %. Here is the top 12 teams of all time. (See if you can spot the pattern)

1) 2004 Dallas
2) 2005 Phoenix
3) 2016 Warriors
4) 2002 Dallas
5) 1998 Utah
6) 1997 Chicago
7) 2004 Sacramento
8) 2010 Phoenix
9) 1996 Chicago
10) 2007 Phoenix
11) 1982 Denver
12) 2003 Dallas

Guy has been the PG on half of the 12 best league adjusted offenses ever. (And yes i went from 10 to 12 to capture 2003 Dallas, but its still 5 of the top 10)

 

[Knicks411]

Penny Hardaway and Grant Hill are not on this list, because injuries derailed their careers. You can't be top 74 (weird number to chose) if you haven't had a 10 year career, there have been too many great players for that.

Penny and Grant Hill dont have 2 MVPs. They were very good, and then got hurt and never reached what we assumed their peak would be. Giannis is the MVP. There's a difference

 

[Melancer46]

Penny Hardaway and Grant Hill are not on this list, because injuries derailed their careers. You can't be top 74 (weird number to chose) if you haven't had a 10 year career, there have been too many great players for that.

Penny and Grant were not nearly as good as Giannis. It's really as simple as that. You can't have a top 74 of all-time and leave off a guy that won MVP multiple times; you just can't. Comparing him to a couple guys that were never even a runner-up a single time in their careers is weak.

 

[Gabjon]

Penny and Grant were not nearly as good as Giannis. It's really as simple as that. You can't have a top 74 of all-time and leave off a guy that won MVP multiple times; you just can't. Comparing him to a couple guys that were never even a runner-up a single time in their careers is weak.

Penny and Grant Hill dont have 2 MVPs. They were very good, and then got hurt and never reached what we assumed their peak would be. Giannis is the MVP. There's a difference

I don't agree. If Giannis's best years were in the Jordan/Shaq era he would have no MVP's. Today he has 1. In his first 7 years he made 4 all-star teams. Grant Hill had 6, Penny had 4 and a NBA finals appearance. If you look at the number for the first 7 seasons they are very comparable.

Giannis Antetokounmpo Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Draft Status and more | Basketball-Reference.com

Checkout the latest stats of Giannis Antetokounmpo. Get info about his position, age, height, weight, draft status, shoots, school and more on Basketball-Reference.com

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Grant Hill Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Draft Status and more | Basketball-Reference.com

Checkout the latest stats of Grant Hill. Get info about his position, age, height, weight, draft status, shoots, school and more on Basketball-Reference.com

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Anfernee Hardaway Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Draft Status and more | Basketball-Reference.com

Checkout the latest stats of Anfernee Hardaway. Get info about his position, age, height, weight, draft status, shoots, school and more on Basketball-Reference.com

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[Eric15]

If Giannis's best years were in the Jordan/Shaq era he would have no MVP's.

Why is that? Plenty of other players won MVP during the "Jordan/Shaq era" most of which weren't nearly as statistically dominant as Giannis has been over the past two seasons.

 

[Alsacs]

1990 Magic
1991 MJ
1992 MJ
1993 Barkley
1994 Hakeem
1995 Robinson
1996 MJ
1997 Malone
1998 MJ

Now MJ was gone 94 and 95 but every other year he was the best player in the league and he didn’t win in 1990 in the most controversial MVP race ever, 93 was earned by Barkley as his team had the best season and was really good that year and plus he was screwed in 90, Malone had no business beating MJ in 97 but again voters wanted to vote for someone else.

Giannis is a little high for me in these rankings but he is a top 50 player alltime now if he retired.

 

[UnknownOrange]

Syracuse fans to Earl "The Pearl" Monroe

 

[Knicks411]

I don't agree. If Giannis's best years were in the Jordan/Shaq era he would have no MVP's. Today he has 1. In his first 7 years he made 4 all-star teams. Grant Hill had 6, Penny had 4 and a NBA finals appearance. If you look at the number for the first 7 seasons they are very comparable.

Giannis Antetokounmpo Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Draft Status and more | Basketball-Reference.com

Checkout the latest stats of Giannis Antetokounmpo. Get info about his position, age, height, weight, draft status, shoots, school and more on Basketball-Reference.com

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Grant Hill Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Draft Status and more | Basketball-Reference.com

Checkout the latest stats of Grant Hill. Get info about his position, age, height, weight, draft status, shoots, school and more on Basketball-Reference.com

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Anfernee Hardaway Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Draft Status and more | Basketball-Reference.com

Checkout the latest stats of Anfernee Hardaway. Get info about his position, age, height, weight, draft status, shoots, school and more on Basketball-Reference.com

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Shaq won one MVP in "the shaq era", so I am not sure why it's so hard to fathom the idea of someone else winning one. (Steve Nash won 2!)

Giannis came to the NBA as a 19 year old kid who wasn't ready to play from day 1, Grant Hill played 4 years for the best college team in the country, I'm not surprised he was better in their respective rookie years. Hill was 22 for his rookie year, if you want to take Giannis from his age 22 season, then that would just be the last 4 seasons, where's he made the AS team every year, second team all NBA twice, and whenever they vote on the awards for this year will have made all NBA first team twice with 2 MVPs, plus 2 first team all defense and maybe even a defensive POY. There's just no comparison between Hill/Penny and Giannis. Those guys were very good/great players who could've gotten even better. Giannis is the guy in the league right now.

His per 36 averages the last 2 years is something like 32-15-7. How exactly is Shaq taking MVP's from him?

 

[Gabjon]

Why is that? Plenty of other players won MVP during the "Jordan/Shaq era" most of which weren't nearly as statistically dominant as Giannis has been over the past two seasons.

Correct. It was Jordan, centers, and power forwards. The point is it was a power/post game back then and if you were a perimeter player not named MJ you weren't winning MVP.

NBA MVP Award Winners

NBA History | Awards | MVP

www.nba.com

 

[Gabjon]

Shaq won one MVP in "the shaq era", so I am not sure why it's so hard to fathom the idea of someone else winning one. (Steve Nash won 2!)

Giannis came to the NBA as a 19 year old kid who wasn't ready to play from day 1, Grant Hill played 4 years for the best college team in the country, I'm not surprised he was better in their respective rookie years. Hill was 22 for his rookie year, if you want to take Giannis from his age 22 season, then that would just be the last 4 seasons, where's he made the AS team every year, second team all NBA twice, and whenever they vote on the awards for this year will have made all NBA first team twice with 2 MVPs, plus 2 first team all defense and maybe even a defensive POY. There's just no comparison between Hill/Penny and Giannis. Those guys were very good/great players who could've gotten even better. Giannis is the guy in the league right now.

His per 36 averages the last 2 years is something like 32-15-7. How exactly is Shaq taking MVP's from him?

LOL! All I said was he hasn't played long enough to make a top 74 list of "all time". Is he on that track of course he is, were Penny and Grant on that track before injuries derailed their careers of course they were.

 

[Melancer46]

I don't agree. If Giannis's best years were in the Jordan/Shaq era he would have no MVP's. Today he has 1. In his first 7 years he made 4 all-star teams. Grant Hill had 6, Penny had 4 and a NBA finals appearance. If you look at the number for the first 7 seasons they are very comparable.

Giannis Antetokounmpo Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Draft Status and more | Basketball-Reference.com

Checkout the latest stats of Giannis Antetokounmpo. Get info about his position, age, height, weight, draft status, shoots, school and more on Basketball-Reference.com

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Grant Hill Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Draft Status and more | Basketball-Reference.com

Checkout the latest stats of Grant Hill. Get info about his position, age, height, weight, draft status, shoots, school and more on Basketball-Reference.com

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Anfernee Hardaway Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Draft Status and more | Basketball-Reference.com

Checkout the latest stats of Anfernee Hardaway. Get info about his position, age, height, weight, draft status, shoots, school and more on Basketball-Reference.com

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There's really no argument that Giannis couldn't have beaten Karl Malone for an MVP during the MJ era and he most likely would have deservedly beaten MJ with this season's performance as well. Malone was great, but what Giannis has done these past two seasons is nearly unprecedented. He's put up Prime Shaq numbers while playing 10 fewer minutes per game. The only players in NBA history that have put up the numbers Giannis has done this year are Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and Wilt Chamberlain.

In the league's history, averages of at least 29 points and 13 rebounds have been accomplished 24 times (including Giannis this year). Excluding Giannis, those guys did it on average in 43.5 minutes per game. Giannis is eclipsing those numbers 30.9. In terms of Per 36 minutes, the only guy to ever eclipse Giannis in this regard is Wilt Chamberlain for one season (the year he averaged over 50 points per game).

And again, going back to the top 74 discussion, there's no logical argument to leave Giannis off the list. You can question his ranking in the top 30, but he's without a doubt a top 74 player of all-time even if he retired after this season.

 

[Gabjon]

There's really no argument that Giannis couldn't have beaten Karl Malone for an MVP during the MJ era and he most likely would have deservedly beaten MJ with this season's performance as well. Malone was great, but what Giannis has done these past two seasons is nearly unprecedented. He's put up Prime Shaq numbers while playing 10 fewer minutes per game. The only players in NBA history that have put up the numbers Giannis has done this year are Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and Wilt Chamberlain.

In the league's history, averages of at least 29 points and 13 rebounds have been accomplished 24 times (including Giannis this year). Excluding Giannis, those guys did it on average in 43.5 minutes per game. Giannis is eclipsing those numbers 30.9. In terms of Per 36 minutes, the only guy to ever eclipse Giannis in this regard is Wilt Chamberlain for one season (the year he averaged over 50 points per game).

And again, going back to the top 74 discussion, there's no logical argument to leave Giannis off the list. You can question his ranking in the top 30, but he's without a doubt a top 74 player of all-time even if he retired after this season.

At the end of his career barring injury he will be on the list, but this can't be a projection it's based on what people have done over a period of time. The gentlemen in bold all played 15+ years and were great for most of them.

 

[Eric15]

Correct. It was Jordan, centers, and power forwards. The point is it was a power/post game back then and if you were a perimeter player not named MJ you weren't winning MVP.

NBA MVP Award Winners

NBA History | Awards | MVP

www.nba.com

Not saying this to be funny but are you confusing Giannis with Durant? Giannis is a beast inside who gets most of his buckets inside the paint.

 

[Knicks411]

At the end of his career barring injury he will be on the list, but this can't be a projection it's based on what people have done over a period of time. The gentlemen in bold all played 15+ years and were great for most of them.

I take your point. I just think there's a level you reach where you're so good that even without a certain amount of longevity you deserve to be on a list like this.