Exciting win, but concerns

[billsin01]

no one besides Taylor/Bell/Cuffe should be shooting a 3 in the normal sets unless forced to. Maybe the walkons.

Haha. You may be right, but Judah -- with everything else he has done for us -- is going to shoot some threes from time to time. He needs to keep people honest. Don't think he'll have a great year shooting the ball, but he shot well in from January on last year (around 35% if I remember correctly), so a couple a game is not crazy. Starling, Q, and Benny, on the other hand, will have to be verrrrry judicious in those decisions because teams are going to leave them open all year. In fact, they will likely be begging them to take those shots.

 

[Entropic]

Follow the shot is straight out of LA fitness pick up advice and I think it’s generally a terrible idea

Well you are supposed to follow your shot, you generally have the best angle on where its going and can grab any of the longer rebounds. It isn't out of LA Fitness it's out of Basketball 101. The furthest back guard is supposed to go back on defense to prevent a fast break.

 

[shandeezy7]

My biggest concern is that I'm not really sure what our defensive philosophy is. Yeah the helter skelter press flustered Colgate and paid dividends for us, but when I've watched us these first few games play defense in the half court, I have no idea what we are trying to do.

Rotations are bad to non-existent. There were several examples of a Colgate ball handler getting past his man and being met with zero resistance on the way to an uncontested bucket at the rim. There was also a play where a defender left his man at the top of the key to help and JJ Starling, instead of rotating over to cover the open guy, literally just stared at his man on the wing who was 30 feet from the basket. Of course the uncontested guy drilled a three while JJ seemed to have no idea what happened.

My biggest gripe with the defensive philosophy is what the heck are we doing to defend the high screens/pick & rolls? It doesn't seem like we want to switch most times (especially with a big) but it also doesn't seem like we're too interested in fighting over screens and even the easy option of going under screens doesn't seem preferable. Too many times, the on ball defender just allows himself to be screened and the guy guarding the screener does not switch to pick up the ball. It's resulted in too many open looks or easy paths to the basket.

How does this stuff get corrected before next week, when the level of competition shoots way up?

 

[jsshap]

Overall feeling great.. just a few stats that jumped out at me..

Outrebounded by 12. A guard was our best rebounder. Copeland had the most rebounds / minute. I wish he was the 7 footer.
Took 8 more attempts to match Colgate's 9 3s. Bell shot 14 3s. Be nice if he could be a tinch more selective. He was 3-5 from 2.
9 of 9 Colgate players scored to 7 of 9 Syracuse players.
5 of 9 Colgate players had assists to 3 of 9 Syracuse players.
We had 5 fewer PFs, at home. Maybe a difference in the game..

We may have found a defensive identity. We still need an offensive identity.

The early returns on this season have not been good. Man would love to be wrong but by the time they leave c'ville I expect this board will be unreadable and the ncaa tourney will be a pipe dream. I did not expect to think that.

- JJ will be great to have next year to replace Judah bc fairly similar skillset (and flaws) but as far as this years team, thus far has not looked like he can be an effective 2. I did not realize his shooting was suspect and based on form does not look promising. Perhaps as he gets more comfortable he can create matchup problems while the beekmans of the world focus on Judah but that requires a stroke that needs to be respected. I assume he has that if he's considered a potential late first rounder but have not seen. They need a consistent shooter outside of Taylor and bell, one whose a dual threat and can play D. Maybe westry can bring that eventually.
- Judah is if course a fantastic talent but it's hard to imagine him ever being in an NBA rotation. I think he makes players better bc he's a good leader and tough competitor, but not via his style of play. His shot looks like it had higher ceiling than JJ, especially from 10-15 feet.
- I can't disagree with those that say it's sink or swim time for Benny, but I think a good season from Benny (unlikely but possible) is the only realistic scenario where this team is tourney caliber (unless westry gets healthy and fills that role as someone who can both shoot and drive and play d).
- the future looks somewhat promising with freeman and Moore (potentially plus a transfer) added to what will be a solid nucleus nexf year, but this year my hope for tourney has dropped from 65% to 30% through these first games.

 

[benjams77]

I think the Reb margin is a bit misleading. Yes the OREB we gave up were tough but there were some shots missed that were airballs or odd rebounds. Overall we were outrebounded by 10 on thh defensive glass which is the majority of the margin. Most of which was in the 1st half when we shot horrible. If you shoot that bad your going to get ourebounded on the defensive glass many times

The biggest issues we are having offensively is outside shooting or lack of it. Colgate packed it in and took away drives. they let Q shoot and gave JJ and Judah space to shoot. I know people are complaining about them shooting 3's but its like in FB running the ball when you cant run to setup other stuff. These players have to al least be a threat to shoot to open up floor for drives.

For years Belmont has been one of the best shooting and smartest teams in college hoops and become a problem for major teams. Colgate is like that to me now and a win over them is still good. If they werent down the road and lost to Cuse tons of times, then we would be happy with the win over a really good mid major team, but cause of who they are to Cuse we see them as nothing.

If anything its was a win to build confidence in players and AA for making those adjustments.

 

[shandeezy7]

The early returns on this season have not been good. Man would love to be wrong but by the time they leave c'ville I expect this board will be unreadable and the ncaa tourney will be a pipe dream. I did not expect to think that.

- JJ will be great to have next year to replace Judah bc fairly similar skillset (and flaws) but as far as this years team, thus far has not looked like he can be an effective 2. I did not realize his shooting was suspect and based on form does not look promising. Perhaps as he gets more comfortable he can create matchup problems while the beekmans of the world focus on Judah but that requires a stroke that needs to be respected. I assume he has that if he's considered a potential late first rounder but have not seen. They need a consistent shooter outside of Taylor and bell, one whose a dual threat and can play D. Maybe westry can bring that eventually.
- Judah is if course a fantastic talent but it's hard to imagine him ever being in an NBA rotation. I think he makes players better bc he's a good leader and tough competitor, but not via his style of play. His shot looks like it had higher ceiling than JJ, especially from 10-15 feet.
- I can't disagree with those that say it's sink or swim time for Benny, but I think a good season from Benny (unlikely but possible) is the only realistic scenario where this team is tourney caliber (unless westry gets healthy and fills that role as someone who can both shoot and drive and play d).
- the future looks somewhat promising with freeman and Moore (potentially plus a transfer) added to what will be a solid nucleus nexf year, but this year my hope for tourney has dropped from 65% to 30% through these first games.

Unfortunately, I don't think there is a hidden shooting talent for JJ. He only shot 42% from the field and 30% from three last year at ND (on 87 attempts). He's not as bad as he's started the year, but I don't expect him to be some sort of consistent three point threat.

 

[Doc5120]

Follow the shot is straight out of LA fitness pick up advice and I think it’s generally a terrible idea

You beat me to it! As a jump shooter, after you release the ball, your 1st movement should not be forward. You need to stay through your shot and finish it. If it's obviously way off then you go and try and get it. But guys shooting from 22 feet away have about a 5% chance of getting a rebound off the miss. The other 9 guys on the floor are likely in a better position to rebound the ball. If the shot is from the top of the key or the wing, the main responsibility is being ready to get back on defense should the opponent rebound the ball and look to get out and push.

 

[BuffOrange]

I thought Bell's two worst shots were to open the game and the tying one at the end. Made both obv.
The "get ready to jump out your seat, this wide open 3 is going to change the game" 3ball, I'm not sure we've made that one since i dunnno, Sutherland?

 

[Entropic]

You beat me to it! As a jump shooter, after you release the ball, your 1st movement should not be forward. You need to stay through your shot and finish it. If it's obviously way off then you go and try and get it. But guys shooting from 22 feet away have about a 5% chance of getting a rebound off the miss. The other 9 guys on the floor are likely in a better position to rebound the ball. If the shot is from the top of the key or the wing, the main responsibility is being ready to get back on defense should the opponent rebound the ball and look to get out and push.

Threes frequently become long rebounds and your rebounders are generally too low to collect them. Follow your shot doesn't mean don't finish your follow through. It means once you land you don't stand there watching the ball assuming 100% of your shots are going in. It's literally taught that the furthest back player (not shooting) is supposed to rotate back. This is usually a guard. It is meant to prevent an opposing player from being a deep outlet.

Also when you shoot your momentum is generally going towards the basket. If you are fading away on threes you are making it way too hard on yourself and you're going to be short more than likely. Since your momentum is going towards the basket already... just keep going.

 

[Doc5120]

Threes frequently become long rebounds and your rebounders are generally too low to collect them. Follow your shot doesn't mean don't finish your follow through. It means once you land you don't stand there watching the ball assuming 100% of your shots are going in. It's literally taught that the furthest back player (not shooting) is supposed to rotate back. This is usually a guard. It is meant to prevent an opposing player from being a deep outlet.

Also when you shoot your momentum is generally going towards the basket. If you are fading away on threes you are making it way too hard on yourself and you're going to be short more than likely. Since your momentum is going towards the basket already... just keep going.

Yes, 3's tend to be longer rebounds, but they rarely end up in the hands of the person who attempted the shot. I realize a guard is supposed to rotate back, but a 3 point shooter is generally not taught to follow their shot and hit the glass. That usually leaves open an opportunity for a runout for the other team.

When you shoot a 3 pointer your momentum should not be going towards the basket at all. You step into your shot, but are generally raising up and then landing straight down (unless you're Reggie Miller kicking your leg out like an a-hole).

 

[FrancoPizza]

My biggest concern is that I'm not really sure what our defensive philosophy is. Yeah the helter skelter press flustered Colgate and paid dividends for us, but when I've watched us these first few games play defense in the half court, I have no idea what we are trying to do.

Rotations are bad to non-existent. There were several examples of a Colgate ball handler getting past his man and being met with zero resistance on the way to an uncontested bucket at the rim. There was also a play where a defender left his man at the top of the key to help and JJ Starling, instead of rotating over to cover the open guy, literally just stared at his man on the wing who was 30 feet from the basket. Of course the uncontested guy drilled a three while JJ seemed to have no idea what happened.

My biggest gripe with the defensive philosophy is what the heck are we doing to defend the high screens/pick & rolls? It doesn't seem like we want to switch most times (especially with a big) but it also doesn't seem like we're too interested in fighting over screens and even the easy option of going under screens doesn't seem preferable. Too many times, the on ball defender just allows himself to be screened and the guy guarding the screener does not switch to pick up the ball. It's resulted in too many open looks or easy paths to the basket.

How does this stuff get corrected before next week, when the level of competition shoots way up?

It would be nice if a reporter was willing to ask some of these questions. Also some good material for Thursday night's radio show.

I can accept the personnel limitations. The frontcourt issues. The lack of shooting. That can be addressed quickly in the off-season with attrition and new players. What bothers me most are the Xs and Os. The fact that the fan base is unanimously questioning whatever system that Red is trying to run, especially on defense, is my biggest concern going forward. Better talent won't erase that problem. I'd like to know who is in charge of teaching the m2m principles. If it's grif, did Dayton have similar issues on defense?.

 

[721Comstock]

Unfortunately, I don't think there is a hidden shooting talent for JJ. He only shot 42% from the field and 30% from three last year at ND (on 87 attempts). He's not as bad as he's started the year, but I don't expect him to be some sort of consistent three point threat.

FWIW, neither of those %'s are 'terrible'.

for instance, our 2013 FF team had the 2 main guards (MCW & RoboTriche) shoot the following:
MCW - 39.3% from field, 29.2% on 3's. 69% (niice) FT's
Triche - 41.6% from field, 28.8% 3's, 74% FT's.

Southy was the designated sniper on that team, and the G's shot just enough 3's and juuust "well enough" to somewhat force opponents to cover them.

 

[81South]

Follow the shot is straight out of LA fitness pick up advice and I think it’s generally a terrible idea

I agree. If you are close to the basket it’s worth doing but from 3 point land it’s a waste of time. Non shooters should assume it’s a miss and crash immediately. That’s 4 guys crashing immediately on the shot attempt…not standing and watching. It’s a blue collar mentality that we currently do not possess.

 

[shandeezy7]

FWIW, neither of those %'s are 'terrible'.

for instance, our 2013 FF team had the 2 main guards (MCW & RoboTriche) shoot the following:
MCW - 39.3% from field, 29.2% on 3's. 69% (niice) FT's
Triche - 41.6% from field, 28.8% 3's, 74% FT's.

Southy was the designated sniper on that team, and the G's shot just enough 3's and juuust "well enough" to somewhat force opponents to cover them.

In 2023, your starting shooting guard shooting 30% from three may not be terrible, but it's not good either.

 

[Cusefan0307]

FWIW, neither of those %'s are 'terrible'.

for instance, our 2013 FF team had the 2 main guards (MCW & RoboTriche) shoot the following:
MCW - 39.3% from field, 29.2% on 3's. 69% (niice) FT's
Triche - 41.6% from field, 28.8% 3's, 74% FT's.

Southy was the designated sniper on that team, and the G's shot just enough 3's and juuust "well enough" to somewhat force opponents to cover them.

He looks worse than that now though.

 

[81South]

You have to make 3s in todays game. No one would argue this. But why can’t we try to play some thru the low post? And do not limit post play to bigs. It’s a part of the game that is way under utilized because it’s not sexy.

 

[shandeezy7]

You have to make 3s in todays game. No one would argue this. But why can’t we try to play some thru the low post? And do not limit post play to bigs. It’s a part of the game that is way under utilized because it’s not sexy.

So many of our threes last night involved zero ball movement. Just iso dribbling (or iso jab stepping in the case of Bell) and launching threes.

 

[5OutFred]

A glaring concern is a lack of identity on the offensive side of the floor. To play 'fast' you must first rebound, which this team has displayed a lack of. The half court sets have looked eerily similar to JB's 'one on one' style reliant on guards to get by their man and make something happen. That's fine for now, but come ACC time, or as I suspect we'll see in Maui, I struggle to see this team executing on the offensive end well.

Hopefully Red recognizes this and implements more 'motion' but early returns suggest the same half -court sets will be here to stay.

 

[Knicks411]

Caused 19 turnovers and only turned it over 7 times.

Right if you force way more turnovers than you commit you are almost certain to lose the rebounding battle.

 

[81South]

So many of our threes last night involved zero ball movement. Just iso dribbling (or iso jab stepping in the case of Bell) and launching threes.

Agreed 100%. I have to admit I was hoping we could turn the page on iso ball and be more like say Purdue in terms of set play creativity.

 

[swish7]

It would be nice if a reporter was willing to ask some of these questions. Also some good material for Thursday night's radio show.

I can accept the personnel limitations. The frontcourt issues. The lack of shooting. That can be addressed quickly in the off-season with attrition and new players. What bothers me most are the Xs and Os. The fact that the fan base is unanimously questioning whatever system that Red is trying to run, especially on defense, is my biggest concern going forward. Better talent won't erase that problem. I'd like to know who is in charge of teaching the m2m principles. If it's grif, did Dayton have similar issues on defense?.

This is one of my concerns as well. I assumed we'd be trying to play like one of Pitino's Louisville teams, just not as well. Like trying to play solid D, but maybe fouling a bit too much, or trying to play help D, but missing some assignments. Maybe trying it all but not being athletic enough to really stifle teams, or experienced enough to execute well. I'm just not sure what we are trying to do on D, yet. Hopefully that changes.

 

[cusefan88]

Three games in...I think people should relax.

 

[SoBristol]

Agreed 100%. I have to admit I was hoping we could turn the page on iso ball and be more like say Purdue in terms of set play creativity.

I don’t see how JJ, Mintz and Bell (our best scorers) are going to run a Purdue set play offense. Have to go with what our guys do.

 

[CardiacCuse]

My biggest concern is that I'm not really sure what our defensive philosophy is. Yeah the helter skelter press flustered Colgate and paid dividends for us, but when I've watched us these first few games play defense in the half court, I have no idea what we are trying to do.

Rotations are bad to non-existent. There were several examples of a Colgate ball handler getting past his man and being met with zero resistance on the way to an uncontested bucket at the rim. There was also a play where a defender left his man at the top of the key to help and JJ Starling, instead of rotating over to cover the open guy, literally just stared at his man on the wing who was 30 feet from the basket. Of course the uncontested guy drilled a three while JJ seemed to have no idea what happened.

My biggest gripe with the defensive philosophy is what the heck are we doing to defend the high screens/pick & rolls? It doesn't seem like we want to switch most times (especially with a big) but it also doesn't seem like we're too interested in fighting over screens and even the easy option of going under screens doesn't seem preferable. Too many times, the on ball defender just allows himself to be screened and the guy guarding the screener does not switch to pick up the ball. It's resulted in too many open looks or easy paths to the basket.

How does this stuff get corrected before next week, when the level of competition shoots way up?

how long does it really take to implement a defense?

cuz so far ...one still hasn't been implemented (aside from the press, which is really good)

there is a basic bare bones d in place, sort of...but i noticed the same: players are not covering for each well at all. a lot of elementary level breakdowns allowing for uncontested easy points.

I think they should focus the defensive portion of practice now on how and when to help on defense...bc it seems players dont really know (at least I hope that is what it is)

(and for the offense...the focus should be: how not to stand around...and to somehow get more motion)

and also overall...how to get into rebounding position and block out.

 

[81South]

I don’t see how JJ, Mintz and Bell (our best scorers) are going to run a Purdue set play offense. Have to go with what our guys do.

Not sure how they would be limited by set plays. You are still going to design a lot of the action to get them shots.