excuse my crazy talk but would cleveland be better off with Waiters than Irving?

[Gabjon]

8 hours ago – via Twitter anthonyVslater
Anthony Slater: Sam Presti sounds confident that Dion Waiters will be back next season: “Again, like we’ve been through these situations in the past. I never want to speculate on how free agency will go. The only thing I can tell you is it generally bodes well when the player is wanting to be back. Any time you have the opportunity to have a mutual goal, that’s always a positive. I do think that in his case, I think the odds are more likely in the event that we’re working in partnership. I think it becomes more challenging and more difficult in the event of it becoming an offer sheet type situation. But we don’t have the answers. I can’t predict the future. I’m happy for Dion. I think he’s working toward realizing his potential, and I’m happy for him.”

 

[SoBeCuse]

No way re: the OP. This whole Cavs team has run into a buzz-saw. I think OKC would've had their way with CLE too. Just too many matchup problems. At times Irving has played very good D this series. Any of the GS guards can shoot right over him. I have seen numerous good contests from Irving with a hand in their faces. I just am surprised how much he and JR Smith are struggling offensively. GS is a very good defensive team lets not forget. Quickness, length, etc. Irving can have his way with just about anyone. Not these guys. Waiters isn't in Irving's league. Not even close, lol.

 

[SoBeCuse]

Playing small against the best small ball team ever is... Intelligent.

Go big. What happens, you lose? You've already done that twice.

Probably wouldn't hurt but they would put Bogut in there and eliminate Mozgov. Bogut is playing great. I don't know what happened to Mozgov. The injury? He looks so slow and Bogut is a real energy player and a banger at 7'0.

 

[jncuse]

A max deal is not 25% of the cap, it will be closer to 15% for Dion (max deals are based on years served) Dion will be offered a max deal the only question is whether OKC will match since he is a restricted FA.

If it was 15% instead of 25%, I could see an outside chance that it is possible. I wasn't sure who was right so I went to RealGM as I know there are some posters who know the cap really well.

I asked the max any 2012 first round pick could get and a few people said an opening of $21.6M is what he is entitled to (just a tad under 25%). So that would be 4/92 as the max another team could offer him.

 

[Briancuse]

how much you want to bet?

I wouldn't bet against anything, its the Nba, look at what Jerome James got.

 

[jncuse]

I wouldn't bet against anything, its the Nba, look at what Jerome James got.

Jerome James got a 5 year / $30million contract starting at 5 million per season per basketball reference (I assume the full MLE at that time). The salary cap at that point was $49.5 million (Per Real GM historic table) . So he basically got 10% of the cap. If Dion Waiters gets the max he will get around 24% of the cap. So they are not really comparable.

 

[Briancuse]

Jerome James got a 5 year / $30million contract starting at 5 million per season per basketball reference (I assume the full MLE at that time). The salary cap at that point was $49.5 million (Per Real GM historic table) . So he basically got 10% of the cap. If Dion Waiters gets the max he will get around 24% of the cap. So they are not really comparable.

I wasn't comparing, I was just pointing out that Nba teams give out assanign contracts all the time.

 

[two3zone]

I wasn't comparing, I was just pointing out that Nba teams give out assanign contracts all the time.

Colleges give out assanign scholorships sometimes too. Nobody can predict the future.

 

[AlaskaSU]

No way re: the OP. This whole Cavs team has run into a buzz-saw. I think OKC would've had their way with CLE too. Just too many matchup problems. At times Irving has played very good D this series. Any of the GS guards can shoot right over him. I have seen numerous good contests from Irving with a hand in their faces. I just am surprised how much he and JR Smith are struggling offensively. GS is a very good defensive team lets not forget. Quickness, length, etc. Irving can have his way with just about anyone. Not these guys. Waiters isn't in Irving's league. Not even close, lol.

Not to mention San Antonio, Portland and the Clippers when healthy. Cleveland is the only real team in the east and they are just middle of the road in the West. Fortunately it is the opposite in college hoops where the best teams are in the east.

 

[Briancuse]

Colleges give out assanign scholorships sometimes too. Nobody can predict the future.

But they are all the same, To this day I really don't know what Isiah Thomas was thinking giving Jerome James that contract. There are some really bad nba contracts out there.

 

[Newhouser]

agreed. But I would go big with Mozgov. There is no way the Cavs can out shoot GSW so try and kill them on the glass and slow down the game.

I agree - they need to play like they did last year even though they have their A Team back (assuming Love can go). They can't keep pace with the Warriors, no sense in trying.

 

[Newhouser]

If it was 15% instead of 25%, I could see an outside chance that it is possible. I wasn't sure who was right so I went to RealGM as I know there are some posters who know the cap really well.

I asked the max any 2012 first round pick could get and a few people said an opening of $21.6M is what he is entitled to (just a tad under 25%). So that would be 4/92 as the max another team could offer him.

If any GM gives Dion that kind of deal they will be unemployed before the deal expires.

 

[Jeremy L.]

They would be a lot better off with Wiggins instead of Love.

Came to post this

 

[orangecuse]

Cleveland really can't play any worse offensively. And, their defensively scheme is completely breaking down and not being executed. Their constant switching vs. mostly staying with their own man is allowing for way too many uncontested layups and dunks by relatively role type players by not staying disciplined enough to make the continued switches. They would be better off staying with their own man, at least the majority of the time and just man up as best they can. Too much finger pointing and looking like deer in the headlights after dunk/layup after dunk/layup. I mean, when Barbosa is 10-12 from the field at this late stage of his career, well, that speaks for itself! Draymond Green going off the other night is just ridiculously poor D as well. The guy has a set shot for Pete's sake and the only way he's going to bury those (with any consistency) is to leave him WIDE open...what a joke!

JR smith has been MIA, Kyrie and Love have been pedestrian at best. Only way Cavs had a shot in this series was bringing their A games every night. Bringing their D games as they did in game one and two wouldn't beat any top team, let alone an elite team like GS.

Additionally, the Cavs have had way too many unforced turnovers leading to an abundance of easy points for GS...25 & 26 points respectively in games one and two.

 

[Gabjon]

If it was 15% instead of 25%, I could see an outside chance that it is possible. I wasn't sure who was right so I went to RealGM as I know there are some posters who know the cap really well.

I asked the max any 2012 first round pick could get and a few people said an opening of $21.6M is what he is entitled to (just a tad under 25%). So that would be 4/92 as the max another team could offer him.

for a player with 0-6years in the league a max deal was roughly 16mil last year it will go up this summer but not by 5+mill.



Howard Beck of Bleacher Report:


Follow
Howard Beck

✔@HowardBeck
Max salaries for 2015-16, based on years of service:
0-6 yrs: $16.407 mil
7-10 yrs: $19.689 mil
10+ yrs: $22.970 mil



Max contracts are determined by experience level with players split into three tiers (0-6 years, 7-9 years, 10+ years). Here’s how much players signing max deals this offseason will earn based on experience and length of the contract:

0-6 years experience (players such as Greg Monroe, Jimmy Butler, Kawhi Leonard)

Re-sign Sign elsewhere
One-year $16,407,000 $16,407,000
Two-year $34,044,525 $33,552,315
Three-year $52,912,575 $51,435,945
Four-year $73,011,150 $70,057,890
Five-year $94,340,250

 

[Gabjon]

Jerome James got a 5 year / $30million contract starting at 5 million per season per basketball reference (I assume the full MLE at that time). The salary cap at that point was $49.5 million (Per Real GM historic table) . So he basically got 10% of the cap. If Dion Waiters gets the max he will get around 24% of the cap. So they are not really comparable.

The cap will be 89 mill next year (estimated)

 

[RF2044]

No way re: the OP. This whole Cavs team has run into a buzz-saw. I think OKC would've had their way with CLE too. Just too many matchup problems. At times Irving has played very good D this series. Any of the GS guards can shoot right over him. I have seen numerous good contests from Irving with a hand in their faces. I just am surprised how much he and JR Smith are struggling offensively. GS is a very good defensive team lets not forget. Quickness, length, etc. Irving can have his way with just about anyone. Not these guys. Waiters isn't in Irving's league. Not even close, lol.

I'm not. Most teams are forced to double Lebron to prevent him from carving his matchup up in the post. When that happens, James is such an exceptional passer that he always makes the right pass out of the double team. Being open at the three point line is where JR Smith thrives.

When teams don't double Lebron [like the Spurs, who have really given him trouble in the past, or Boston when they were better than Cleveland a couple of years ago], JR Smith is no longer open, and he takes contested shots instead of open ones -- or doesn't get looks at all.

Irving is just being exposed. Great scorer, ok shooter, subpar playmaker, lousy defender. If he's scoring, he's fun to watch. When he isn't, then he isn't helping your team much.

And GS deserves a lot of credit--everybody talks about their offense, which obviously is elite. But they don't relax on the other end--they are quite solid defensively, too.

 

[HOFCeluck]

Glad I wasn't one of those bags praising Cle for getting rid of Wiggins.

*Quickly checks post history*

$-k.

 

[jncuse]

for a player with 0-6years in the league a max deal was roughly 16mil last year it will go up this summer but not by 5+mill.



Howard Beck of Bleacher Report:


Follow
Howard Beck

✔@HowardBeck
Max salaries for 2015-16, based on years of service:
0-6 yrs: $16.407 mil
7-10 yrs: $19.689 mil
10+ yrs: $22.970 mil



Max contracts are determined by experience level with players split into three tiers (0-6 years, 7-9 years, 10+ years). Here’s how much players signing max deals this offseason will earn based on experience and length of the contract:

0-6 years experience (players such as Greg Monroe, Jimmy Butler, Kawhi Leonard)

Re-sign Sign elsewhere
One-year $16,407,000 $16,407,000
Two-year $34,044,525 $33,552,315
Three-year $52,912,575 $51,435,945
Four-year $73,011,150 $70,057,890
Five-year $94,340,250

An increase of $16.4 million to $21.6 million is 32%
The 2015/2016 salary cap was about $66.3 million. It is increasing to at least $89 million. This represents an increase of 34% in the salary cap,

So a bracket that was $16. 4 million going up to the $21.6 million would be expected.

 

[Gabjon]

An increase of $16.4 million to $21.6 million is 32%
The 2015/2016 salary cap was about $66.3 million. It is increasing to at least $89 million. This represents an increase of 34% in the salary cap,

So a bracket that was $16. 4 million going up to the $21.6 million would be expected.

Regardless there isn't a 24yr old guard available better than Dion, so to get him away from OKC a team has to offer a number that OKC can't or won't match. Given his performance in the playoffs the number will have to be a max or close to it.

 

[jncuse]

Regardless there isn't a 24yr old guard available better than Dion, so to get him away from OKC a team has to offer a number that OKC can't or won't match. Given his performance in the playoffs the number will have to be a max or close to it.

Bradley Beal would be the only who is arguably better, but he may not make it to FA.. But it's still a lean market for young guards as you state.

 

[STEVEHOLT]

JR smith apparently forgot how to play basketball completely. cant navigate a simple screen without a guy ending up wide open under the hoop

 

[Gabjon]

Bradley Beal would be the only who is arguably better, but he may not make it to FA.. But it's still a lean market for young guards as you state.

If he could stay healthy....

 

[Gabjon]

14. Dion Waiters SG / Oklahoma City Thunder
AGE: 24 STATUS: Restricted free agent
Analysis: If you had asked me about Dion Waiters' ranking a year ago, and informed me that I would be placing him 14th, you'd have gotten somewhere between a guffaw and a heart attack. For years Waiters has played like he believes he is something he is not -- a star-level player who needed the ball in his hands at all times. This led to infuriating decisions and, on top of that, he would routinely miss layups and make unwise plays. But somehow, in the last three months, right as he's set to hit free agency, Waiters has turned a corner. With the Thunder in this year's playoff run, he knocked down the 3-ball, stayed aggressive in attacking the rim, deferred to star players and just played to his role. If you don't trust him, there's a big worry of him regressing to his worst habits if given big money. But at 24 years old with no injury concerns, and given the growth and skillset he's shown plus the likelihood of him coming under the budget of someone like Harrison Barnes (No.24), Waiters all of a sudden is one of the best value deals on the market. The risk is high with Waiters, but the value and reward are just as great.


Good fit with: OKC, Charlotte, Brooklyn, Sacramento




link to the full article:
Top 50 NBA free agents of 2016: A divisive class after Kevin Durant

 

[SoBeCuse]

I'm not. Most teams are forced to double Lebron to prevent him from carving his matchup up in the post. When that happens, James is such an exceptional passer that he always makes the right pass out of the double team. Being open at the three point line is where JR Smith thrives.

When teams don't double Lebron [like the Spurs, who have really given him trouble in the past, or Boston when they were better than Cleveland a couple of years ago], JR Smith is no longer open, and he takes contested shots instead of open ones -- or doesn't get looks at all.

Irving is just being exposed. Great scorer, ok shooter, subpar playmaker, lousy defender. If he's scoring, he's fun to watch. When he isn't, then he isn't helping your team much.

And GS deserves a lot of credit--everybody talks about their offense, which obviously is elite. But they don't relax on the other end--they are quite solid defensively, too.

I agree with most of this. My point was essentially giving the GS defense much of the credit. Irving CAN have his way with just about everyone with or without LeBron, imo. My point was also putting the OP to bed quickly that Waiters isn't in Irving's league whether you like Irving or not. Not even a debate, frankly.