Expansion chatter...again

[rosconey]

just finish the dam super conferences and get it over with-

if it is going to happen just do it faster-

i think its getting to the point all fans are getting sick and tired of the constant talk

 

[IthacaMatt]

Using the Kings, Barons, and Knights model from the old Stewart Mandel article:

FSU and Miami are the ACC's Kings; Oklahoma and Texas are the Big 12's Kings

VT, Clemson, and Georgia Tech are the ACC's Barons; WVU is the Big 12's only Baron although TCU might be considered one if they have anywhere near the same success in the Big 12 that they had recently in the MWC.

Pitt and SU are former Barons that now join the rest of the ACC's Knights. One or both could quickly be elevated back up to Baron status as a result of joining (and doing well in) a higher profile league like the ACC.

Cheers,
Neil

I went and looked up that article. It was good, especially from the viewpoint of college expansion, and summarizes in a nutshell what I've said to the UConn fans about why we were chosen over them for the ACC.

 

[omniorange]

I went and looked up that article. It was good, especially from the viewpoint of college expansion, and summarizes in a nutshell what I've said to the UConn fans about why we were chosen over them for the ACC.

Agreed. Last year over on the Big East boards, we tried to do an update of Mandel's lists. I thought the best of them was this entry by a Northwestern fan:

Kings
Alabama, Florida, Florida State, Louisiana State, Miami, Michigan, Nebraska, Notre Dame, Ohio State, Oklahoma, Penn State, Southern California, Texas

Barons
Arkansas, Auburn, Clemson, Georgia, Georgia Tech, Iowa, Oregon, Pittsburgh, Tennessee, Texas A&M, UCLA, Virginia Tech, Wisconsin, West Virginia

Knights
Arizona State, Boise State, Boston College, BYU, California, Colorado, Louisville, Maryland, Michigan State, Mississippi, Missouri, Navy, North Carolina, North Carolina State, South Carolina, Syracuse, Texas Christian, Utah, Washington

Again, I didn't bother to include the last category since that has gotten me into trouble in the past.

I'm not sure Pitt is at Baron status presently. I see them more as a Knight now, but definitely one of the Knights that could easily be elevated to Baron status with a decent 5-year run. But in terms of TV, apparently they get as many games on as WVU and do well in the ratings, so perhaps for expansion purposes, they are a Baron.

Still shaking my head that both the Pac-12 and the Big 12 are getting anywhere near SEC and BiG $$$ while the ACC is fast becoming the Big East of the new college landscape in that regard.

Cheers,
Neil

 

[All4SU]

Again, I didn't bother to include the last category since that has gotten me into trouble in the past.

So...when is a Knight not a Knight?

 

[omniorange]

So...when is a Knight not a Knight?

I know, but posters from those schools not a Knight can be so sensitive. Unlike on this board.

Well, at least this time I was smart enough not to use my listing.

Cheers,
Neil

 

[sufan]

Agreed. Last year over on the Big East boards, we tried to do an update of Mandel's lists. I thought the best of them was this entry by a Northwestern fan:

Kings
Alabama, Florida, Florida State, Louisiana State, Miami, Michigan, Nebraska, Notre Dame, Ohio State, Oklahoma, Penn State, Southern California, Texas

Barons
Arkansas, Auburn, Clemson, Georgia, Georgia Tech, Iowa, Oregon, Pittsburgh, Tennessee, Texas A&M, UCLA, Virginia Tech, Wisconsin, West Virginia

Knights
Arizona State, Boise State, Boston College, BYU, California, Colorado, Louisville, Maryland, Michigan State, Mississippi, Missouri, Navy, North Carolina, North Carolina State, South Carolina, Syracuse, Texas Christian, Utah, Washington

Again, I didn't bother to include the last category since that has gotten me into trouble in the past.

I'm not sure Pitt is at Baron status presently. I see them more as a Knight now, but definitely one of the Knights that could easily be elevated to Baron status with a decent 5-year run. But in terms of TV, apparently they get as many games on as WVU and do well in the ratings, so perhaps for expansion purposes, they are a Baron.

Still shaking my head that both the Pac-12 and the Big 12 are getting anywhere near SEC and BiG $$$ while the ACC is fast becoming the Big East of the new college landscape in that regard.

Cheers,
Neil

-------------------

Of course there are also cultural, academic and geographical issues.

The ACC didn't offer WVU, the PAC 12 turned down OK (and OSU combination) and so on.

"US NEWS & WORLD REPORT RANKINGS

45. Texas
68. Clemson
75. Baylor
97. Iowa State
97. TCU
101. Florida State
101. Kansas
101. Oklahoma
132. Oklahoma State
143. Kansas State
160. Texas Tech
164. West Virginia"

from the FSU Scout football forum, where this issue is discussed (unable to link)



Aside from money and travel, FSU and Clemson would also be deciding what group of schools do they want to be associated with on a long term basis:

If an ultrafan actually sees FSU and Clemson as a "football school", that may make them want to consider the Big 12.

Students, alumni, donors, the President, board of Trustees may decide the issue based on a university affinity level, not on a sports team level.

I would be surprised if GT or Miami want to leave the ACC to be in association with the Big 12 schools on a university level.

The real question is: does FSU really want to be partners with largely second tier universities, far away from their geography and alumni base?

 

[CuseLegacy]

http://www.wtrf.com/story/17294434/luck-discusses-big-12-transition

Article discusses WVU input into Big12 expansion and need/desire for closer geographic opponents in future expansion. Duh.

 

[SU2NASA]

http://www.wtrf.com/story/17294434/luck-discusses-big-12-transition

Article discusses WVU input into Big12 expansion and need/desire for closer geographic opponents in future expansion. Duh.

Louisville, come on down!

 

[44PRIDE]

If you had to choose one, who would you rather have in the ACC?

UCONN
RUTGERS
LOUISVILLE

Based on the full value they bring, the choice is obvious. If the ACC were smart, they'd be placing a full court press to get the Ville into the ACC.

 

[All4SU]

If you had to choose one, who would you rather have in the ACC?

UCONN
RUTGERS
LOUISVILLE

Based on the full value they bring, the choice is obvious. If the ACC were smart, they'd be placing a full court press to get the Ville into the ACC.

I'm torn between a desire to maintain a basketball rivalry and potential comic relief.

 

[44PRIDE]

I'm torn between a desire to maintain a basketball rivalry and potential comic relief.

Not sure I completely follow. I get your comic relief angle regarding RU and UConn. But LVille is a program on the rise...much the same way VTech was in the late 90's

 

[Townie72]

If you had to choose one, who would you rather have in the ACC?

UCONN
RUTGERS
LOUISVILLE

Based on the full value they bring, the choice is obvious. If the ACC were smart, they'd be placing a full court press to get the Ville into the ACC.

I guess if you put a gun to my head and I had to make a choice it would be Louisville.

I know they are old Metro Conference mates with Florida State.

But dissassociating SU from the Mid South open enrollment, commuter colleges is one of the reasons I want SU in the ACC. It's like we moved out of a crumbling neighborhood to get away from the riff-raff and here they start moving across the street in the new neighborhood.

I don't see the ACC wanting any of these schools for different reasons. If they had wanted UConn or Rutgers they would have invited them. UL is just not the kind of school that the guys in the striped oxford cloth shirts and blazers from UVA, UNC and Duke want to hang out with.

Louisville belongs in a conference with similar schools ... Memphis, Houston, Cincinnati, Akron, Tulsa ... all schools of the same feathers.

 

[Btstimpy]

If you had to choose one, who would you rather have in the ACC?

UCONN
RUTGERS
LOUISVILLE

Based on the full value they bring, the choice is obvious. If the ACC were smart, they'd be placing a full court press to get the Ville into the ACC.

Louisville runs a great Athletic Department, and would fit athletically very well in the ACC.

However, Louisville's academic ranking per USNWR is 164, which is coincidentally tied with West Virginia. With the ACC having 7 schools in the top 40 academically and 14 in the top 101, I would doubt that there will be much support in the ACC to add Louisville when there are other choices out there that also have great athletic departments and have academics ranking at least in the top 100.

I think that if the ACC were to accept a school ranked as low as 164 they would give serious consideration to West Virginia over Louisville due to geography and rivalry with Pittsburgh. WVU's ship has sailed at least for the short term, but I predict that the travel that all the WVU athletes are going to experience all over the Big XII territory is going to get old in a hurry.

I don't know what is causing the academic rating of these two schools to be so low, but they would need to improve it in order to attract many of the ACC schools.

 

[Admiral Koga]

FSU and to a lesser extent Clemson do not like having the Carolina's and many in Tallahassee despise them. My thinking is they both consider themselves football schools and would rather be richer being the Longhorns grunt than being one for Carolina. If the money really does come out better for them leaving, I believe they will be gone as it's been a combo of things that have bugged those two schools and this time they're ready to go. They would have been far happier if the ACC added WV instead of Pitt, especially after the Wv/Clemson game.

I've had my head in the sand for the last several years. Why would FSU/Clemson have preferred WVU over Pitt/Syracuse? I know that Pitt and FSU played well together in the old Eastern Independant sandbox. Yes, WVU has had a nice run, though they have only been a NC contender back in the Pat White day. Is taking Pitt/Syracuse really the straw that breaks the camel's back in all of this? Why is that? What other gripes does Clemson/FSU have?

 

[arbitragegls]

even Coach K indicated 'Cuse and Pitt were selected to upgrade bball...and that the next one or two need to be football schools to please FSU, Clemson etc. This was the first conference bball necessary teams as ACC known for bball has been going downward of late. Now they need to shore up the Football competition...I would have thought WVU would have been good but it didnt make the academic cut...so how much longer does ACC wait for ND?

 

[IthacaMatt]

If you had to choose one, who would you rather have in the ACC?

UCONN
RUTGERS
LOUISVILLE

Based on the full value they bring, the choice is obvious. If the ACC were smart, they'd be placing a full court press to get the Ville into the ACC.

Why ? What's wrong with 14 teams ? 15 doesn't make any sense.

 

[IthacaMatt]

even Coach K indicated 'Cuse and Pitt were selected to upgrade bball...and that the next one or two need to be football schools to please FSU, Clemson etc. This was the first conference bball necessary teams as ACC known for bball has been going downward of late. Now they need to shore up the Football competition...I would have thought WVU would have been good but it didnt make the academic cut...so how much longer does ACC wait for ND?

The ACC should wait for Notre Dame as long as it takes.

 

[Townie72]

The ACC should wait for Notre Dame as long as it takes.

And they will ... wait as long as it takes.

There's no reason to add more schools unless its ND. SU and Pitt got in so the ACC could take advantage of the clause in the TV contract that allowed them to renegotiate if they added two schools.

Unless its ND, adding more schools is just adding more mouths to feed.

 

[Admiral Koga]

Why ? What's wrong with 14 teams ? 15 doesn't make any sense.

Actually...15 would be the way to go. Three 'divisions' of five teams each. In FB, you play your division (4 games) and one other divison, rotating each year (5 games), for a total of 9 conference games.
In BB, you play a home-home with your divison (8 games) and one game each against the other two divisions (10 games).

It might be tough to sort out who is in what division (under this scenerio, Duke-UNC must be in the same division if they want to play H-H anually).

 

[Btstimpy]

I've had my head in the sand for the last several years. Why would FSU/Clemson have preferred WVU over Pitt/Syracuse? I know that Pitt and FSU played well together in the old Eastern Independant sandbox. Yes, WVU has had a nice run, though they have only been a NC contender back in the Pat White day. Is taking Pitt/Syracuse really the straw that breaks the camel's back in all of this? Why is that? What other gripes does Clemson/FSU have?

Clemson and FSU aren't griping about anything publicly. Some of their fans gripe about not having more "exciting" big time college football opponents on their schedule. But, FSU has recently had Oklahoma on the schedule and Clemson has had Auburn with Georgia coming up. FSU fans also gripe that they don't play Georgia Tech enough because of proximity.

FSU's athletic director and Clemson's President were on the committee that invited Pitt/Syracuse. That was their opportunity to push for WVU, and they did not. One of the reasons FSU chose the ACC in 1991 over the SEC was academics. Unless something has drastically changed at FSU since 1991, that remains important to FSU when looking at conferences. FSU has also become somewhat of a basketball school lately in case anyone has noticed.
Clemson is a founding member of the ACC, and hasn't expressed any public interest in leaving the ACC. I don't see why they would have been pushing for WVU either. That recent Orange Bowl is only the second meeting of the two schools in football ever.

My guess is that FSU and Clemson might be on the Big XII's wish list, but I highly doubt that the Big XII is on theirs. The SEC I could see possibly being attractive to FSU, but they turned down the SEC 20 years ago over academics. I'm not sure what has changed in that regard.

 

[Orangello]

This all sounds nice until Texas decides to bolt the B12 and that's not a question of if, just when. This remains a marriage of convenience at the moment.

 

[Scooch]

This all sounds nice until Texas decides to bolt the B12 and that's not a question of if, just when. This remains a marriage of convenience at the moment.

Texas ain't leaving the B12. Or did you not see the terms of their media deal?

 

[Chip]

Texas ain't leaving the B12. Or did you not see the terms of their media deal?

Exactly, anyone who joins the Big 12 doesn't have to worry about Texas leaving behind their backs. But those who do join the Big 12 will have to worry about Texas taking some of their promised money right in front of their faces.

There's equal revenue sharing plans. And there's the Big 12 revenue sharing plan. I'm not sure those 2 concepts should even be in sentences that close to each other.

 

[Cusefan95]

I doubt FSU and Clemson really have any intent to leave the ACC...but even rumors of them talking to the Big 12 gives them leverage. The ACC has always been run by the Carolina mafia, this looks like the beginning of a coup to me. If it doesn't go well maybe FSU and Clemson make the jump to the Big 12, but that's not their desired outcome here.

 

[KaiserUEO]

theres a few stoopid people out there in college athletics (all them are the bigeast brain powertrust) but again, i cant see how or why flast and clemson think the b12 is a good option for them.

omni's Kings, Barons and Knights post was good.

and if flast and clemson leave, they would be jeopordizing their King or Baron title.

fwiw: in the big east there is nothing but serfs and peasants. (and all you stoopid arse morons who didnt want to go in 2003, should still be lined up and shot for stupidity. i know who you are. hell, we all do.)

Oh Lord