Explain to me 1 thing the zone takes away ?

[chugg21]

I won't show you but the narrative is: There are too many good shooters, these days + JB hasn't noticed = the game has passed him by.

This is independent of Buddy/JGIII/whoever and is often said just before a year in which we have a dominant zone. I guess it bodes well for next season, although I'd be surprised if it turns out that way.

Think some people are just of the mindset that committing to any 1 thing 100% and being unwilling to change under any circumstance is probably not the best way to go about things. Has served him pretty well in his career to be inflexible but there comes a point where every legendary coach has either adapted or got pushed out.

 

[Zelda Zonk]

So three guys in 35 years?

No, I was pointing out three examples on some of the best teams over that period.
That’s still more examples than National Championships that we have, yet...

 

[Zelda Zonk]

So does that mean that it's a great idea to play it exclusively when we don't have the personnel?

That’s kinda the point.
The zone is great, every five years when the stars align and we happen to have the right combination of length, rim protection, athleticism, commitment, experience, quickness...
When recruiting, early departures, transfers, injuries, redshirts, etc somehow screw up the formula, it’s a liability.

 

[SBU72]

our offensive efficiency has been more indicative of overall team success year in year out. You can argue that the zone infatuation is what led to the offense’s demise.

Not sure about that. When the team ran more, the offense was fine. That of course required a c or who could be depended to rebound and get the ball out. Guards were in ideal spot to leak out when in a zone. That stopped with weaker rebounding. Also with pgs who walked the ball up court. I was encouraged when JG3 seemed to move the ball faster upcourt, but there is still the rebounding problem.

 

[NineOneSeven]

Lol. That’s because you follow us. Every team is “predictable” if you follow them closely. It’s not about tricking the other team.

We need better talent. This will be the 3rd straight year with no first round pick on the team.

Yeah talent important but there are also only 30 first round picks each year. Some of those picks come from overseas, some of them are from the same team, and some of them are from bottom dwelling P5 teams.

Point is, we have a draft pick on the team in Hughes. That's more than most tournament teams can say.

 

[SaltLakeOrange]

That’s kinda the point.
The zone is great, every five years when the stars align and we happen to have the right combination of length, rim protection, athleticism, commitment, experience, quickness...
When recruiting, early departures, transfers, injuries, redshirts, etc somehow screw up the formula, it’s a liability.

When all you have is a hammer, everything is a nail...

 

[STEVEHOLT]

Is that why Vitale said we are one Derrick Coleman shy of being a good team?

That's like me saying im a lexington steele reproductive organ away from being an adult moviestar.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

That’s kinda the point.
The zone is great, every five years when the stars align and we happen to have the right combination of length, rim protection, athleticism, commitment, experience, quickness...
When recruiting, early departures, transfers, injuries, redshirts, etc somehow screw up the formula, it’s a liability.

Add in the change to the three point line, resulting in more territory to cover, and the increasing talent of kids shooting 3s, and here we are.

 

[MadNY3]

-doesn’t take away 3’s
-doesn’t take away lay ups or dunks
-doesn’t take away mid range
-doesn’t force turnovers
-doesn’t prevent offense rebounding

I mean even years when our zone was bad we usually had a give and take .. maybe it wasn’t as good allowing 3’s but that usually meant it was tough sledding to score inside ... or maybe it forced a ton of turnovers ...or maybe it prevented the 3’s but allowed easier inside scoring ..

But this zone is basically garbage ..

Any defense is only as good asthe players that execute it.

But picturing #35 trying to D up the opposing 2 or 3 would be like a colander trying to stop water.

 

[chugg21]

Any defense is only as good asthe players that execute it.

But picturing #35 trying to D up the opposing 2 or 3 would be like a colander trying to stop water.

Would probably be a pretty similar outcome in pts allowed as not being able to close out up top and giving up open 3s.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

Would probably be a pretty similar outcome in pts allowed as not being able to close out up top and giving up open 3s.

I disagree. He’d likely get beat on drives, but his positioning would likely be better if he was only worrying about one guy.

 

[orangecuse]

JB’s zone works.
That isn’t the issue here.
It’s that our HC won’t change the D periodically when the personnel we have doesn’t fit the zone as well as other teams.
Instead it’s force the round peg into the square hole 100% of the time. When maybe instead of 100% zone it was 90% zone 10% m2m when the zone is being shredded.

We have people here basically saying how can our players play m2m when EVERY OTHER TEAM IN THE NATION does it but our guys will be even worse at D trying it.
It’s so disingenuous. Our HC just doesn’t want to do anything different it’s simple.

1000 likes!

It really is bizarre, IMO. I often ask myself, how can so many here (or fans beyond this place) say that they believe SU hoops is elite and falls in the next tier after the so-called "blue-blood" schools, and yet are incapable of playing any M2M? It really is unreal in my opinion. A historic relatively top tier program that has had so many high level athletes and talent here is incapable? Not to mention that these kids have been playing M2M their entire lives in very competitive organized leagues, etc. What, they come to SU and forget how to tie their shoes in that regard? It's just crazy to me. No doubt, as you allude, it's not that our kids can't play M2M, it's purely JB voluntarily choosing not to play it. Plain & simple.

 

[CardiacCuse]

Oh so wrong. JB had a good man d years ago. Check some older u-tube . Can't pinpoint what year (others can I'm sure) but JB noticed teams in th tourny had a tough time playing against a good zone especially the 2nd day of a set of games. Since NCAA tournament means everything, he went that route playimg zone and a type of zone no other team does. It has taken SU a long ways

yeah i remember a big east game in the 80s where JB used a box and one d against a really good player on the other team to win the game...and it was genius.

 

[CardiacCuse]

Oh so wrong. JB had a good man d years ago. Check some older u-tube . Can't pinpoint what year (others can I'm sure) but JB noticed teams in th tourny had a tough time playing against a good zone especially the 2nd day of a set of games. Since NCAA tournament means everything, he went that route playimg zone and a type of zone no other team does. It has taken SU a long ways

yeah iwas at the regional game vs indiana and marquette and the zone def did its magic...indiana was befuddled...but it comes down to do you have the horses to play it?

defensive (and offensive schemes) need to fit and maximize the current personnel...instead of creating a system that stays the same every year ..adjust it on the fly...but i guess when you have been in a job for 40 years your conception of time widens...JB probably thinks in terms of multiple seasons at a time...hes probably just thinking now of when his son is a senior and how to make the team as good as possible by then, imo.

 

[CardiacCuse]

1000 likes!

It really is bizarre, IMO. I often ask myself, how can so many here (or fans beyond this place) say that they believe SU hoops is elite and falls in the next tier after the so-called "blue-blood" schools, and yet are incapable of playing any M2M? It really is unreal in my opinion. A historic relatively top tier program that has had so many high level athletes and talent here is incapable? Not to mention that these kids have been playing M2M their entire lives in very competitive organized leagues, etc. What, they come to SU and forget how to tie their shoes in that regard? It's just crazy to me. No doubt, as you allude, it's not that our kids can't play M2M, it's purely JB voluntarily choosing not to play it. Plain & simple.

i mean at the end of the day the coach can adjust the zone...JB does throughout the game...

but m2m isnt really adjustable...I guess it comes down to control...unfortunately.

 

[FrancoPizza]

I disagree. He’d likely get beat on drives, but his positioning would likely be better if he was only worrying about one guy.

The zone places a premium on lateral quickness up top to deny dribble penetration and plug passing lanes... and that’s the one thing we don’t have. But jimmy gonna jimmy.

 

[FrancoPizza]

i mean at the end of the day the coach can adjust the zone...JB does throughout the game...

but m2m isnt really adjustable...I guess it comes down to control...unfortunately.

m2m is absolutely adjustable and has just as many wrinkles if not more than zone. This is what happens to fans who only see their team in one defense - they make up myths about the other stuff.

 

[tbonezone]

no need to steal signals. JB only has 2 pitches. zone which he throws 95% of the time and the trunk monkey knuckleball the other 5. what's more he doesn't believe in using his bullpen. no pitch count at the cuse.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

no need to steal signals. JB only has 2 pitches. zone which he throws 95% of the time and the trunk monkey knuckleball the other 5. what's more he doesn't believe in using his bullpen. no pitch count at the cuse.

You forgot the wrinkle he pulls out 0.00005% of the time. Guards extend and attack when the ball crosses half court. But otherwise, interesting analogy.

 

[tbonezone]

You forgot the wrinkle he pulls out 0.00005% of the time. Guards extend and attack when the ball crosses half court. But otherwise, interesting analogy.

you mean when the ball rolls across mid court ?

 

[Ghost]

yeah i remember a big east game in the 80s where JB used a box and one d against a really good player on the other team to win the game...and it was genius.

As a rule, I like any post that mentions a box and one defense. Content is irrelevant.

 

[Ghost]

You forgot the wrinkle he pulls out 0.00005% of the time. Guards extend and attack when the ball crosses half court. But otherwise, interesting analogy.

I have to say, one of the other interesting things about this team, they seem completely unable to grasp how to trap someone. I've never seen two players in a position to trap leave bigger gaps for the player to dribble out of. They always leave at least two full exit plans.

I'm not sure if it's partially due to the spacing rules in play now, or we're just bad at it.

 

[Bornorange]

One thing the zone takes away is any criticism of our man to man defense.

 

[SWC75]

m2m is absolutely adjustable and has just as many wrinkles if not more than zone. This is what happens to fans who only see their team in one defense - they make up myths about the other stuff.

"The players aren't keeping up with the shooters in a zone so let's put them in a man-to-man and now they will keep up with them."

Nope. Zones are used to mask deficiencies that are exposed in a man-to-man.

 

[tbonezone]

early JB used to use the zone only to protect players in foul trouble. cuz it's basically lazy hands off defense.