Feelings of Hopelessness for this Program amidst the Gaslighting

[RF2044]

I've made a similar post to this as well, it just kinda blows my mind some of the excuses being made.

LeMoyne is 355th in the country in Ken Pom (out of 364!). We beat them by 4, at home! They have playte 2 teams in the top 100 at KP all year; they lost at Notre Dame by 29 and at Uconn by 41. I repeat, we beat them by 4 at home.

Colgate is 242nd, we beat them by 2. At home! Youngstown state is 195th, we beat them in double OT. (Say it with me) at home! BC is 207, same thing, double ot at home. We have beaten one team in the top 100 all year (Notre Dame is #90, at home of course. Georgia Tech is 101, we also beat them. at home)

If you want to say we need more money to compete at the highest levels, that is surely true. If you want to say we need more money or else we are destined to barely beat LeMoyne, Youngston State, and Colgate, then let's just say I disagree.

That's the elephant in the room.

Our team is performing at such a historically bad level, that it is difficult for some to wrap their heads around. And the main issues are that this staff -- all of them -- do poorly with respect to in-game X's and O's, they don't manage the substitution pattern properly [another sign of the poor "feel" for the game], they clearly don't excel at teaching the game of basketball of getting players to improve, and they don't seem to be as good of recruiters as the early hype suggested.

The KenPom data is not just alarming, it is a blaring claxon of an alarm.

The notion that just throwing some extra NIL $$$ at the problem might improve some aspects of the team's performance, but it sure as hell isn't going to correct the foundational, systemic issues with this coaching staff.

 

[RF2044]

Yeah...its an indicator of "magical silver bullet" thinking which I've seen from bad leadership throughout my career. There's a reason why people buy diet pills but don't change their eating behavior, or pheromone colognes that supposedly make you irresistible, or why businesses fall for the management fad of the day...because its easier to pretend some magical silver bullet which requires very little effort is all that is needed to fix an issue. People generally don't want to acknowledge the true root cause - and even if they do, they don't want to roll up their sleeves and put in the effort to fix it.

McCord came because Fran had already rolled up his sleeves and done hard work to retain key guys, improve NIL, and be generally attractive to portal guys. It wasn't that McCord came and then everything else magically fell into place.

Literally nothing coming out of the mouth of anyone associated with Syracuse University related to the basketball program gives me any confidence. This is going to get a lot worse before it gets better...if it ever really gets "better".

I think that is a really powerful analogy.

Unfortunately, as we are seeing play out, there is no "EASY" button.

 

[Red2003]

Who's the team captain?

Who's the guy Red has sat down with and said "We need to do this, this, and this on defense. I know you get it, and I need you to be the lynchpin on the court and lead this team by example and get on the guys that are dragging. Take the reigns, son."

A coach can only do so much in-game from the sideline and needs a good floor-general.

If you watched Red's Miami postgame presser, he took responsibility for the fact the team did not play defense but basically said he does not know why they didn't.

He said they didn't do what he coached them to do.

I like the honesty but this is an unacceptable situation. I also like Red and it's painful to watch him answer questions staring down at the table with his arms folded looking pained. He is clearly distraught and feeling the pressure and I do feel bad for him. No one wanted it to go this way, least of all him.

People follow leaders in the most basic sense.

Either these players simply won't follow his direction or they are not clear on what they are being asked to do, and hence can't execute what they don't understand.

Whatever the reasons for this, it's not acceptable and Red is getting paid $2mil+ a year to figure it out and get the players to play to their potential.

Big boy pants are on. Good coaches earn their wedge.

I agree. Your comment that they are really not clear what they’re asked to do and don’t understand or what their role is. Really hits hard.

Why have all our shooters regressed from last year? Why can they all the sudden not make free throws this year? It’s because they are in a constant state of chaos, playing new rotations every game. and for most of the games do not understand what Autry is trying to do with his subs or gameplans.

We already don’t have the brightest bunch on the court. Why complicate things so much every game.

 

[kingtidge]

I agree. Your comment that they are really not clear what they’re asked to do and don’t understand or what their role is. Really hits hard.

Why have all our shooters regressed from last year? Why can they all the sudden not make free throws this year? It’s because they are in a constant state of chaos, playing new rotations every game. and for most of the games do not understand what Autry is trying to do with his subs or gameplans.

We already don’t have the brightest bunch on the court. Why complicate things so much every game.

It really makes me sad because I like Red and I have a lot of empathy for him and hate to see one of our own in these straights, but it's so starkly clear at this point that it just isn't working - at all.

 

[HyattsCuse]

real question. No disrespect of Red. Does Red understand the X and O portion of coaching?

My two cents is that he doesn't. I believe that he subs based on a pre-determined pattern. Anyway, if he doesn't have the chops on the X and O side, he needs to hire someone who does. If he does, he needs to either start using them and or put together a roster of kids that will listen to and follow coaching instructions. At this point I believe he is strong on the people connection side and weak on the details of game planning and scheme.

Agreed, IMO, the proof is in the [awful] results. Our offense and defense are both ranked extremely low. That’s X and O. I have watched just about all the games in their entirety. I can’t recall a set play where I thought, “great play, that was drawn up nicely”. I rarely see effective in game adjustments on offense or defense. I wouldn’t even call subs based on pre-determined patterns. They might start that way, but his substitutions and 5 guys we have on the court seem completely arbitrary like he’s just hoping to hit on the right 5 guys. Then he does occasionally and then doesn’t sub them out.

Phil77 several posts above yours linked to a clip where Red admits he’s still learning about roster construction! That’s pretty important when it comes to X and O’s. He’s clearly learning on the job, but I am of the belief that there is simply too much for him to learn and he’s way over his head. Syracuse head coach shouldn’t be a total on-the-job training position.

 

[Red2003]

Would be interested to see what people think on this outlier?

The comments about kenpom are really ridiculous how terrible we are in almost every category on both ends.

What I can’t square is how we are able to rebound and why we fight on the boards but nowhere else. I mean we outrebounded Duke this year. 4th in ACC now.

All last year we were terrible on the boards and we all blamed it on effort. Now we can rebound decently but everything else is broken.

Somehow this team can get themselves to fight on the boards but they can’t be bothered to do anything else. Just doesn’t make sense. This team just really makes no sense.

 

[Knicks411]

That's the elephant in the room.

Our team is performing at such a historically bad level, that it is difficult for some to wrap their heads around. And the main issues are that this staff -- all of them -- do poorly with respect to in-game X's and O's, they don't manage the substitution pattern properly [another sign of the poor "feel" for the game], they clearly don't excel at teaching the game of basketball of getting players to improve, and they don't seem to be as good of recruiters as the early hype suggested.

The KenPom data is not just alarming, it is a blaring claxon of an alarm.

The notion that just throwing some extra NIL $$$ at the problem might improve some aspects of the team's performance, but it sure as hell isn't going to correct the foundational, systemic issues with this coaching staff.

The "we need more money" comments (which again are almost certainly true) is the kind of stuff you should hear when you have a frisky top 25-30ish team that doesn't quite have the talent to compete at the highest level. Not when there are only 4 power conference teams in the entire country below you at Ken Pom (one of whom you just lost to, another one you needed double OT to beat at home).

It's really bad right now! Not sure everyone fully understands this

 

[RF2044]

Would be interested to see what people think on this outlier?

The comments about kenpom are really ridiculous how terrible we are in almost every category on both ends.

What I can’t square is how we are able to rebound and why we fight on the boards but nowhere else. I mean we outrebounded Duke this year. 4th in ACC now.

All last year we were terrible on the boards and we all blamed it on effort. Now we can rebound decently but everything else is broken.

Somehow this team can get themselves to fight on the boards but they can’t be bothered to do anything else. Just doesn’t make sense. This team just really makes no sense.

I think there is a root cause -- Eddie Lampkin is a plus rebounder, and he has size.

That's the biggest difference between this year and last year, IMO.

 

[sufan59]

The "we need more money" comments (which again are almost certainly true) is the kind of stuff you should hear when you have a frisky top 25-30ish team that doesn't quite have the talent to compete at the highest level. Not when there are only 4 power conference teams in the entire country below you at Ken Pom (one of whom you just lost to, another one you needed double OT to beat at home).

It's really bad right now! Not sure everyone fully understands this

If this was true and as a fan I thought would end up being the story this year that we executed well, but was a player or two short then yes I agree on the we need more money. Which we will get because if people are seeing a well executed team that just needs an extra contributor or two that’s an easier sell. Say we get the money for this current season and spent it to make it a top 10 roster. If you look at how we are underperforming this season and the injuries, we would probably be a bubble team right now.

 

[RF2044]

The "we need more money" comments (which again are almost certainly true) is the kind of stuff you should hear when you have a frisky top 25-30ish team that doesn't quite have the talent to compete at the highest level. Not when there are only 4 power conference teams in the entire country below you at Ken Pom (one of whom you just lost to, another one you needed double OT to beat at home).

It's really bad right now! Not sure everyone fully understands this

Couldn't agree more.

I've stated this numerous times -- if we were playing tough, competitive basketball and just coming up a little short because we lacked the horses...

If there were ANY -- and I quite literally mean ANY -- signs that the staff had a clue what they were doing, or helping players improve, or demonstrating that we had quality systems on either side of the ball...

But none of those things are true. People started saying that Red was a plus recruiter right when he got hired, because:

[1] We landed McD's all-American transfer JJ right away -- a guy JB couldn't get to stay home.
[2] We landed highly rated transfer Chance Westry from top 10 Auburn -- a guy JB couldn't land.
[3] We landed Freeman, a highly rated kid from the class of 2024 -- a guy who JB probably couldn't land.

It was exciting! It seemed like a great sign, and hopefully a sign that Red had the recruiting chops to help replenish the talent pool that had dwindled under JB.

Problem is, that crew hasn't delivered a ton. JJ has been good. Westry never contributed due to injuries. Freeman had a good start, but got derailed by injuries and didn't seem to move the needle with respect to team performance. The transfer group brought in this offseason has similarly underwhelmed, to varying degrees.

So maybe the "recruiting" attribution that got made early on wasn't on-target, either.

If Red isn't good at much that the job requires, then no amount of NIL is going to change that. If our hope is that we are going to be able to spend tons of money to bring in enough impact portal transfers to offset Red's limitations -- that doesn't seem like much of a strategy to me. It seems more like wishful thinking that myopically focuses on addressing the symptoms of the problem instead of the actual problem itself.

 

[kingtidge]

...Anyway, if he (red) doesn't have the chops on the X and O side, he needs to hire someone who does. If he does, he needs to either start using them and or put together a roster of kids that will listen to and follow coaching instructions. At this point I believe he is strong on the people connection side and weak on the details of game planning and scheme.

I am highlighting this because I don't understand the rationale at all.

If we hired a head coach that doesn't understand X's and O's, THEN WE HIRED THE WRONG HEAD COACH.

I don't understand how keeping him and adding subordinates that understand the game better than him is supposed to be a solution.

A solution in delaying the inevitable??

Also, wasn't Englestad supposed to be on-bench help for Red as the 1st-time HC??... a former D1 HC and specialist on M2M defense x's and o's?? (as in, we have already tried this??)

 

[sufan59]

Would be interested to see what people think on this outlier?

The comments about kenpom are really ridiculous how terrible we are in almost every category on both ends.

What I can’t square is how we are able to rebound and why we fight on the boards but nowhere else. I mean we outrebounded Duke this year. 4th in ACC now.

All last year we were terrible on the boards and we all blamed it on effort. Now we can rebound decently but everything else is broken.

Somehow this team can get themselves to fight on the boards but they can’t be bothered to do anything else. Just doesn’t make sense. This team just really makes no sense.

It’s because we have the bodies and physicality on this roster to compete on the boards, Eddie being the leader on that front. Ultimately though, we are just getting outclassed most of the time including those non conference low and mid major games that were close, but ultimately our superior talent willed us to victory. With the roster we had coming into the season, there was two things that I knew we would take a slight regression on that you can’t make up with coaching: athleticism and Maliq Brown’s poking ability. It seems that the reason last season was more successful is ultimately we could make up for a lack of team offense and team defense with 3 guys that can space the floor and get a bucket: Mintz, Copeland, and Starling. As well as Maliq who can cause several turnovers on defense a game with a special skill. Now we really have one guy that can use his athleticism to get a bucket this season with Starling. Last season it was that we didn’t get the buy in to run team offense and team defense consistently (maybe not a bad thing we went to iso several times). This season we do seem to have more buy in to run team offense and team defense, but we simply are getting out schemed on both sides of the ball. Once we realize that we are getting outclassed during the game you have two options: tell your players to make things happen with their athleticism or make adjustments. We don’t have enough guys to make things happen with their athleticism and adjustments don’t always work. If as a coach you don’t have good team offense and defensive plans and the ability to make adjustments. You must have the athletes that can freestyle at times. You really need both to be a contender. You need one of those areas to be a decent team with a winning record that can make the tournament. If you have zero of those things you have what we have now. I thought we would have had good team offense and team defense this season that would keep us competitive. I would also add that there are several good teams that get wins because of great coaching and team offense and defense and have no guys that can use their athleticism to get iso buckets consistently.

 

[Chip]

But none of those things are true. People started saying that Red was a plus recruiter right when he got hired, because:

[1] We landed McD's all-American transfer JJ right away -- a guy JB couldn't get to stay home.
[2] We landed highly rated transfer Chance Westry from top 10 Auburn -- a guy JB couldn't land.
[3] We landed Freeman, a highly rated kid from the class of 2024 -- a guy who JB probably couldn't land.

It was exciting! It seemed like a great sign, and hopefully a sign that Red had the recruiting chops to help replenish the talent pool that had dwindled under JB.

Problem is, that crew hasn't delivered a ton. JJ has been good. Westry never contributed due to injuries. Freeman had a good start, but got derailed by injuries and didn't seem to move the needle with respect to team performance. The transfer group brought in this offseason has similarly underwhelmed, to varying degrees.

So maybe the "recruiting" attribution that got made early on wasn't on-target, either.

I don't think that evidence shows that there's a plus recruiter issue. Combined with what we have next year coming in as well.

Maybe a player development issue, sure. But on paper, those are recruits worth being excited about. As you said, 1 has been good, 1 has been injured, 1 probably needed some more development time, but then got injured.

The transfers, yeah, underwhelming might be an understatement.

 

[cusefan88]

Basically Wildhack/Chancellor/BOT have to decide the cost of things right.

You keep everything the same, you will lose a ton on ticket sales and merch next year. I personally don't plan on buying any tickets unless the program gives me a positive reason to.

The flip side is a new fresh staff will probably keep people engaged and if the hire hits people will come back pretty quickly.

My biggest concern is the younger fans will tune out and never grow into season ticket buying fans should Red be retained and the obvious occur next season.

 

[RF2044]

I don't think that evidence shows that there's a plus recruiter issue. Combined with what we have next year coming in as well.

Maybe a player development issue, sure. But on paper, those are recruits worth being excited about. As you said, 1 has been good, 1 has been injured, 1 probably needed some more development time, but then got injured.

The transfers, yeah, underwhelming might be an understatement.

I think the evidence DOES show that the early positivity isn't necessarily supported by the results.

Transfers:

• JJ -- very good
• Westry -- injured, zero impact
• McLeod -- injured, negligible impact
• Carlos -- limited impact
• Taylor -- decent value, for the NIL money
• Davis -- decent value, for the NIL money
• Lampkin -- solid production, glaring limitations, not good value for the NIL money

High school:

• Freeman -- good talent, injured, didn't help the team's struggles against lower OOC opponents
• Anthony -- exciting, but probably not a program changer
• White -- exciting, but has offensive limitations / probably not a program changer
• Fennell -- exciting, but readiness TBD [and a big risk to hand the PG role to him and him alone next year]
• Womack -- love his potential, but probably a year away from being a year away

So... not much bang for the buck on either front. I don't think recruiting can be viewed as a negative necessarily, but it also can't be viewed as a strength. The results just aren't there.

 

[kingtidge]

Basically Wildhack/Chancellor/BOT have to decide the cost of things right.

You keep everything the same, you will lose a ton on ticket sales and merch next year. I personally don't plan on buying any tickets unless the program gives me a positive reason to.

The flip side is a new fresh staff will probably keep people engaged and if the hire hits people will come back pretty quickly.

My biggest concern is the younger fans will tune out and never grow into season ticket buying fans should Red be retained and the obvious occur next season.

We have been down this road before with Football so it's not like they don't know what to expect...

 

[AcAndAc]

Basically Wildhack/Chancellor/BOT have to decide the cost of things right.

You keep everything the same, you will lose a ton on ticket sales and merch next year. I personally don't plan on buying any tickets unless the program gives me a positive reason to.

The flip side is a new fresh staff will probably keep people engaged and if the hire hits people will come back pretty quickly.

My biggest concern is the younger fans will tune out and never grow into season ticket buying fans should Red be retained and the obvious occur next season.

New fans will come back. But the bar is higher for them. Most of us diehards are happy just being interesting... Big Dance Bubble... fast start excitement, even if not maintained all year... slow start, but rally at the end to make a run... almost anything. The new fans will need the 10-win season (football equivalent, meaning good ranking or deep run.

 

[STEVEHOLT]

Couldn't agree more.

I've stated this numerous times -- if we were playing tough, competitive basketball and just coming up a little short because we lacked the horses...

If there were ANY -- and I quite literally mean ANY -- signs that the staff had a clue what they were doing, or helping players improve, or demonstrating that we had quality systems on either side of the ball...

But none of those things are true. People started saying that Red was a plus recruiter right when he got hired, because:

[1] We landed McD's all-American transfer JJ right away -- a guy JB couldn't get to stay home.
[2] We landed highly rated transfer Chance Westry from top 10 Auburn -- a guy JB couldn't land.
[3] We landed Freeman, a highly rated kid from the class of 2024 -- a guy who JB probably couldn't land.

It was exciting! It seemed like a great sign, and hopefully a sign that Red had the recruiting chops to help replenish the talent pool that had dwindled under JB.

Problem is, that crew hasn't delivered a ton. JJ has been good. Westry never contributed due to injuries. Freeman had a good start, but got derailed by injuries and didn't seem to move the needle with respect to team performance. The transfer group brought in this offseason has similarly underwhelmed, to varying degrees.

So maybe the "recruiting" attribution that got made early on wasn't on-target, either.

If Red isn't good at much that the job requires, then no amount of NIL is going to change that. If our hope is that we are going to be able to spend tons of money to bring in enough impact portal transfers to offset Red's limitations -- that doesn't seem like much of a strategy to me. It seems more like wishful thinking that myopically focuses on addressing the symptoms of the problem instead of the actual problem itself.

Just look at how early in the year, when teams are all getting familiar with each other, we were competitive with good teams like Texas / Texas Tech.

As time went on and staffs that were better at coaching / developing their squads had enough runway for their systems impacts to be felt, we fell into the abyss. I don’t care who you bring in next year player wise, it will be the same pattern. I will not be tuning in for that show .

 

[HRE Otto IV]

New fans will come back. But the bar is higher for them. Most of us diehards are happy just being interesting... Big Dance Bubble... fast start excitement, even if not maintained all year... slow start, but rally at the end to make a run... almost anything. The new fans will need the 10-win season (football equivalent, meaning good ranking or deep run.

Part of the problem will be that we haven’t created any die hards the last 10 years. Locals under 20 have never been to a conference game in the Dome where we were ranked. Neither have alumni under 30.

Then you get into chicken and egg. We need NIL $ to be back to where we used to be. But people won’t want to invest in the product until they see results. Which makes it harder to get back to where we used to be.

 

[RF2044]

Just look at how early in the year, when teams are all getting familiar with each other, we were competitive with good teams like Texas / Texas Tech.

As time went on and staffs that were better at coaching / developing their squads had enough runway for their systems impacts to be felt, we fell into the abyss. I don’t care who you bring in next year player wise, it will be the same pattern. I will not be tuning in for that show .

I believe the same.

Given what we've seen, and how bad the KenPom data reveals we are, I'm actually surprised when I see posters express that they aren't sure yet whether or not Red is a good coach, or indicate that they think he just needs more NIL $$$, and all will be fine.

Difficult to reconcile, compared to the product on the court.

 

[NKR1978]

Jim Boeheim asks for patience with Adrian Autry: ‘You have to allow coaches to grow into the job’

Boeheim asked for patience for Adrian Autry and talked about importance of money during an appearance on ESPN Radio Syracuse.

www.syracuse.com

No one is going to give money to a guy who can't coach his way out of a wet paper bag. It's a death spiral and all roads lead to Red.

 

[DilemaCuse]

Desperation at its finest.

Could you ever imagine the bball program looking towards the football program hoping for a similar savior type to save them?

If you told me that 10 years ago, I would have said something terribly wrong happened.

Here we are 10 years later in a position it shouldn't be in.

 

[Knicks411]

I believe the same.

Given what we've seen, and how bad the KenPom data reveals we are, I'm actually surprised when I see posters express that they aren't sure yet whether or not Red is a good coach, or indicate that they think he just needs more NIL $$$, and all will be fine.

Difficult to reconcile, compared to the product on the court.

I've been more disengaged from this season than any in a while, so i don't read every post or anything, but are there any actual pro Red cases being made? Cause it seems to me that the people who haven't completely written him off usually say things like we need more money, or he needs more time to get his players in, or you shouldn't fire someone after 2 years. Those are all general reasons not to fire someone, but are there any reasons specifically that Red deserves to be kept around? (Can you guess my answer?!?!) Because I think the fact that you don't hear many, if any, of those arguments is telling.

 

[AcAndAc]

I've been more disengaged from this season than any in a while, so i don't read every post or anything, but are there any actual pro Red cases being made? Cause it seems to me that the people who haven't completely written him off usually say things like we need more money, or he needs more time to get his players in, or you shouldn't fire someone after 2 years. Those are all general reasons not to fire someone, but are there any reasons specifically that Red deserves to be kept around? (Can you guess my answer?!?!) Because I think the fact that you don't hear many, if any, of those arguments is telling.

No, mostly just the argument that you "need to give more than 2 years for optics" type arguments.

 

[sufan59]

No, mostly just the argument that you "need to give more than 2 years for optics" type arguments.

Which I would get if he was an external hire, but he was an internal hire. Optically this is different than if we would’ve fired Dino after his second season because we didn’t make a bowl either year. And we had strong signals that we improved from 2016 to 2017 as a program even though the record didn’t show it. It’s just I think most of the coaching world wouldn’t care if we decided to abandon ship on the keep in the family coaching succession strategy after a trial period of a few seasons.