Feelings of Hopelessness for this Program amidst the Gaslighting

[Sbucketball]

Pretty sure it was a misunderstanding as we have exchanged friendlier messages now.

Lol what happened?

 

[Sherman20]

I suspect Jesse Edwards leaving was a really pivotal moment in the program, for a couple reasons.

First, it took us from a situation where we would have had one of the best centers in the country and a really experienced player to having to shoehorn a talented guy into the spot. Maliq played well but that wasn't the ideal scenario. As I've mentioned in other threads, I think if Jesse was our center we make the tournament.

Second, I think him taking a deal from WFVU put blood in the water for portal sharks. Once that happened, we could not work from a position of strength. It was known that guys could be taken from us. That also meant that we could be leveraged (more or less how it seems to have gone down with Lampkin). It translated into a reputation as not being a serious player in the portal for the top guys.

There's an alternative timeline where Jesse stays, we make the tournament, maybe the program stays together better, and overall we're in a stronger position to be more enticing in the portal and we're not coming across as much like a wounded animal. That leads to a better roster this year, which is more forgiving of some of the learning on the job Red's clearly going through.

I'm not saying that fully gets us back to high level competitiveness, but it could be some effort to reverse some of the trends we've been watching for a decade now.

This is a good call. You gotta step up and pay guys like Jesse if that’s what’s necessary. They found the extra money for Lampkin, they should have for Jesse. Red knew the importance of year 1. So what you gotta do.

 

[LAorange44]

In 2025, it is so incredibly easy to just walk away. I had season tickets from about 2001-2020, switched to just a couple single game tickets after that, didn’t bother getting any tickets this year. Haven’t really bothered watching games this year; I flipped on the Miami game with about 6 minutes left, thought “you gotta be kidding me” and flipped it off.

The likelihood I’ll ever be a season ticket holder again is negligible. That’s one of the problems - it costs far more to acquire new customers than it does to retain old ones. It’s a big risk for Syracuse basketball - JB was worried about no home court advantage playing in front of 14,000 fans when the Dome was built. That didn’t happen regularly, but may in the very near future - that would likely accelerate the decline of the program. The Dome has been a huge asset to basketball; it may be about to become a massive liability.

I’ve been screaming this from the rafters. 20 years after Gerg and football hasn’t recovered. How many sell outs for our 10 win football team with a generational talent (by Cuse standards)? Zero. Basketball is crashing fast in the same direction. When you suck for a decade as we have, you not only lose long time customers but fail to cultivate the next generation of fans. The misguided attitude of “they’ll be back” espoused by the school and local media is peak arrogance. Consumers have so many options of where to put their entertainment time and dollar. For 25 years, Cuse basketball was appointment TV. Now, when a conflict arises, I skip large parts of games because the product sucks and is frustrating to watch, Unless the school is putting out a quality product, fans/customers will move on and nobody will take their seats.

 

[RF2044]

This is a good call. You gotta step up and pay guys like Jesse if that’s what’s necessary. They found the extra money for Lampkin, they should have for Jesse. Red knew the importance of year 1. So what you gotta do.

I don't think that having the money was the issue with Jesse.

When he came back a third time with new demands, Red stood his ground and took a principled stand. I don't think drawing that hard line might be his approach now, under those same circumstances -- but he was new and was trying to install a new culture, with himself as the leader. He didn't want to be pushed around.

Understandable, even though it was a net negative for both the program and Jesse.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

I don't think that having the money was the issue with Jesse.

When he came back a third time with new demands, Red stood his ground and took a principled stand. I don't think drawing that hard line might be his approach now, under those same circumstances -- but he was new and was trying to install a new culture, with himself as the leader. He didn't want to be pushed around.

Understandable, even though it was a net negative for both the program and Jesse.

Yeah, the situation is what it is.

I blame Jesse's dad more than Red.

But that doesn't mean the consequences aren't real.

 

[RF2044]

Yeah, the situation is what it is.

I blame Jesse's dad more than Red.

But that doesn't mean the consequences aren't real.

Right.

I'm just pointing out that I think at the time, under those circumstances, what Red chose to do made sense as a new guy taking over a program, and needing to establish himself as the new sheriff in town.

Jesse's dad comported himself poorly, and it cost his kid and us.

 

[007]

Unless the school is putting out a quality product, fans/customers will move on and nobody will take their seats.

The basketball program can be turned around in one season with the "right" coach and players. When/if that happens, the university believes the fans will show up again.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Right.

I'm just pointing out that I think at the time, under those circumstances, what Red chose to do made sense as a new guy taking over a program, and needing to establish himself as the new sheriff in town.

Jesse's dad comported himself poorly, and it cost his kid and us.

It's why I'm afraid of us "needing" a player from the portal at a position.

 

[RF2044]

The basketball program can be turned around in one season with the "right" coach and players. When/if that happens, the university believes the fans will show up again.

And I think they're right.

That's why I felt like all the hand wringing about keeping the JB replacement in the family for appeasement reasons were bunk. There might have been some short term fallout, and then if the successor coach was successful, then the bad feelings would have gone away.

 

[Fly Rodder]

When he came back a third time with new demands, Red stood his ground and took a principled stand.

Understandable, but the needed approach was recognizing who the best players you want to retain are and then lock them down from the start. Don't let things linger, that allows for openings.

I don't think the staff understood the situation and who their most valuable players are/were. Not best, necessarily, but most valuable.

 

[LAorange44]

The basketball program can be turned around in one season with the "right" coach and players. When/if that happens, the university believes the fans will show up again.

I predict it will take more than one season to overcome the damage of basketball’s 10 year slide. JB didn’t pack 27k in the dome each night on the back of one good season.

 

[Sherman20]

I can assure you there is no pressure on JW currently, The dynamics of how Red became the coach ensures that regardless of how it works out. Again JW knows the deal, Red will either make the tourney next year or he will be gone.

Can you elaborate on “the dynamics of how Red became coach ensures that”? What do you mean by that? I’m genuinely curious.

When Red got the job, I think our perception as fans was that he’d be given a chance but he would have to prove himself quickly because of his lack of experience. And if we didn’t make the tourney after two years (and saw regression on top of that), then the Cuse AD would be able to pull the plug, because that’s unacceptable. They hired an unproven head coach because he was a Syracuse alum and was an internal candidate. Fine to give it a try. But if it’s going in the wrong direction after two years, then I think we all felt it would be fair to pull the plug.

 

[007]

And I think they're right.

That's why I felt like all the hand wringing about keeping the JB replacement in the family for appeasement reasons were bunk. There might have been some short term fallout, and then if the successor coach was successful, then the bad feelings would have gone away.

From my understanding, that pressure was largely political from within the university, BOT, and some donors. I doubt they were worried about the fan impact as a primary consideration. There is a strong sentiment that they have poured resources into improving fan engagement with all the enhancements to the Dome. They believe, and I agree, that the Syracuse fanbase and students will support a winner.

 

[kingtidge]

Understandable, but the needed approach was recognizing who the best players you want to retain are and then lock them down from the start. Don't let things linger, that allows for openings.

I don't think the staff understood the situation and who their most valuable players are/were. Not best, necessarily, but most valuable.

We'll see if they have learned anything here quickly in that regard with Donnie...

 

[RF2044]

From my understanding, that pressure was largely political from within the university, BOT, and some donors. I doubt they were worried about the fan impact as a primary consideration. There is a strong sentiment that they have poured resources into improving fan engagement with all the enhancements to the Dome. They believe, and I agree, that the Syracuse fanbase and students will support a winner.

That's my understanding as well. Probably because those powers-that-be couldn't envision that things would get so bad, and underestimated the damage that hiring an unqualified candidate would do.

And yet, here we are -- having a historically poor season, with shockingly bad NET ratings.

Fan impact might not have been their primary consideration, but it should be one now.

 

[AcAndAc]

The basketball program can be turned around in one season with the "right" coach and players. When/if that happens, the university believes the fans will show up again.

No, they will not. Look at football attendance:

1986: 34.5K per game
1987 (11-0-1 season): 44.5 k per game.
1988 to 2000: Lowest was 43k, some years as high as 48k AVERAGE.
1999 (post-McNabb): 46.7K
2000: 43k
2001-2004: stiil above 40k each year
2005 (GERG 1): 40k
2006: (GERG 2): 41k
2007: (GERG 3/apathy starts): 35k
2008: (GERG 4/fan punishment stage): 33k
2009: (Marrone 1/enthusiasm): 39k--still below the worst Coach P years
2010 & 2011: 40k
2012: 46k (still a few thousand below the McNabb/Graves years)
2013: Shafer 1: 38k
2014: Shafer 2: 32k
2015: Shafer 3: 33k (almost 10,000 below the Coach P years and BELOW 1986)
2016: Babers 1: 33k (same as 2015)
My data ends there and I do not feel like looking.
OK two more:
2018: Averaged 42k
2024: Averaged 39k.

So, McNabb era we averaged 46k... Marrone's 8 win season in 2012 brought 46k in... Dino's 10 win season brought 42k in... and Fran's 10 win season brought 39k in. We would not have put seats in the Dome if we thought we could EVER put 48,000 to 50,000 back in the Dome on average for a season. Those days are over and the admin knows it.

I posit that we never fully recovered from the mistake of giving GERG a 4th year. Instead of fixing apathy as it was starting during year 3, the admin cemented it by cheaply giving him year 4. While Marrone brought us some the way back with a 46k season, Shafer destroyed that reather quickly. We went from a program where .500 seasons were bad... to one where .500 seasons would now be the good ones. It wasn't "get a life" that took attendance down. It was realizing that our bar had been lowered without the admin caring at all.

Fran's 10 win season is a needed injection of hope. But unless we can string some of those seasons together... I think sellouts will be pretty rare. Even with lower capacity.

 

[kingtidge]

That's my understanding as well.

And yet, here we are -- having a historically poor season, with shockingly bad NET ratings.

Fan impact might not have been their primary consideration, but it should be one now.

Our situation is a completely predictable outcome.

There was a decent probability it would go this way with a legacy head coach with no head coaching experience and given the state of our program when he was handed the baton... and by end of year 2, it could be in the dumpster.

This wasn't a fringe, low-probability outcome anyone should be surprised by.

If there is no contingency plan to deal with this at the end of this season, it's poor program management and malpractice.

I have seen some posts here as well as the recent interview with our former coach that state:

"Syracuse doesn't fire a head coach after 2 years. That's not what we do here."

or... "If you think we're firing a coach after 2 years, you don't understand Syracuse Athletics."

OK, then a valid follow-up question should be:

"Why should fans invest time and money in a program that is not serious and willfully mismanaged?"

Is it because we have a culture of program mismanagement and that's just how we do it??

Is it because it's Syracuse and the power brokers genuinely think we can put out a garbage product our fans have nothing better to do and will support regardless??

 

[Consigliere]

I don't believe in many absolutes in this world. Almost everything is and should be up for discussion or consideration.

• Fans that shout from social media that Adrian Autry absolutely cannot get the job done and 100% should be fired are extreme. And that is a non-productive stance to take.
• Fans (and apparently administrators) that take the position that Adrian Autry absolutely cannot be fired and 100% must be given the job next year? That's wrong too.

Why are so many so damm entrenched, so unable to have a real, level-headed discussion of the pros and the cons of making a change? I hear so many people calling into radio sounding like their best friend has died, saying this is the worst they have seen this program in 50+ years, saying they have no interest any more, and then saying "We have to give him one more year". Its gaslighting to the Nth degree. No we don't. Maybe we should. Maybe that's where we land after a discussion of all options. But NOTHING is entitled in this world, especially when it comes along with offensive and defensive schemes that look dusted off from the days of underhanded free throws. Nothing innovative is happening under Autry. It's awful. We lose to bad teams, and get destroyed by good ones.

I believe Autry is likely in way over his head and like Jerod Mayo, the beloved but unqualified former Patriots coach, likely needs to be relieved of his duties. That's not an absolute, but I feel confident enough about it that I believe it needs serious consideration.

But that said, I'm not even saying a change MUST be made. But I'm so tired of this defeatist attitude that we have NO choice but to eat one more season of terrible basketball, taking us one season farther from competitiveness.

I saw a social post that was a mind fark. It said that this current graduating class will have NEVER seen this team in a Tourney. That's INSANE. We need to do everything to make sure next year's doesn't suffer the same fate. That may include Autry and this staff, if may not. But ALL OPTIONS need to be considered at the highest levels.

There has GOT to be a way to save the incoming class without sacrificing the future of the program. Isn't it worth even trying?

It just feels so hopeless.

One thing that John Wildhack has been consistent on is that he doesn’t make a change and fire a coach unless he is confident that the department has given that coach everything possible to breed success. I don’t feel that he could confidently say that going into this season. It was pretty apparent that every available dollar went to football and thank god for that!
Since then we have added a GM, and an analytics wunderkind. We had to replace one assistant coach but still have not taken advantage of the NCAA rule allowing two additional assistants that many of our conference brethren have. We absolutely underestimated the NIL landscape and thought we could build a strong roster with a $2.5MM war chest and found we really needed almost double that as two of our top portal targets backtracked to one degree or another and signed elsewhere. And we have had exactly one ACC game this year with both of our best players on the floor.

I honestly do not know if Red has what it takes for long term success in the ACC. I expect to see some significant changes in the offseason and to see a decision made a year from now after all possible support is put in place.

 

[HRE Otto IV]

The basketball program can be turned around in one season with the "right" coach and players. When/if that happens, the university believes the fans will show up again.

I think the program can be turned around quickly, but as Indiana has shown that isn’t easy.

As to the fans, I disagree. The longer we wait the harder it will be to get them back. This isn’t a Louisvillesque turn around, we have been at this for over a decade.

Locals and older alumni are checked out. It will take more than a Sweet 16 run to get them fully back. We need sustained success. Younger alumni have never seen Cuse BBall. They never have bought in.

There will be a lag. That means less revenue and less NIL. Which makes it harder to turn the program around in the first place.

We have a huge hole to dig out of. The longer we wait to start getting out, the harder it will be to get out.

 

[sufan59]

Our situation is a completely predictable outcome.

There was a decent probability it would go this way with a legacy head coach with no head coaching experience and by end of year 2 it could be in the dumpster.

If there is no contingency plan to deal with this at the end of this season, it's poor program management and malpractice.

I didn’t disagree with the promote from within hire for various reasons. Ultimately, I just don’t think it’s attractive for an outside hire to immediately take over for a guy of the stature of Boeheim. However, agreed when Autry was given the opportunity, we have to have the contingency planning ready to go. Especially considering the program was declining when Boeheim left.

 

[HRE Otto IV]

One thing that John Wildhack has been consistent on is that he doesn’t make a change and fire a coach unless he is confident that the department has given that coach everything possible to breed success. I don’t feel that he could confidently say that going into this season. It was pretty apparent that every available dollar went to football and thank god for that!
Since then we have added a GM, and an analytics wunderkind. We had to replace one assistant coach but still have not taken advantage of the NCAA rule allowing two additional assistants that many of our conference brethren have. We absolutely underestimated the NIL landscape and thought we could build a strong roster with a $2.5MM war chest and found we really needed almost double that as two of our top portal targets backtracked to one degree or another and signed elsewhere. And we have had exactly one ACC game this year with both of our best players on the floor.

I honestly do not know if Red has what it takes for long term success in the ACC. I expect to see some significant changes in the offseason and to see a decision made a year from now after all possible support is put in place.

Even if that is the plan, we have two assistant coaches who should be shown the door. It is bad enough we have less staff. You cannot have poor staff on top of that.

 

[baggerbob]

Well coach K voluntarily retired and the transition was pretty seamless and pre-planned, that's not what happened here.

Coach K retired and left a program in good shape. He didn't deep six the program on the way out the door.

 

[sufan59]

One thing that John Wildhack has been consistent on is that he doesn’t make a change and fire a coach unless he is confident that the department has given that coach everything possible to breed success. I don’t feel that he could confidently say that going into this season. It was pretty apparent that every available dollar went to football and thank god for that!
Since then we have added a GM, and an analytics wunderkind. We had to replace one assistant coach but still have not taken advantage of the NCAA rule allowing two additional assistants that many of our conference brethren have. We absolutely underestimated the NIL landscape and thought we could build a strong roster with a $2.5MM war chest and found we really needed almost double that as two of our top portal targets backtracked to one degree or another and signed elsewhere. And we have had exactly one ACC game this year with both of our best players on the floor.

I honestly do not know if Red has what it takes for long term success in the ACC. I expect to see some significant changes in the offseason and to see a decision made a year from now after all possible support is put in place.

My only counterpoint here is if there is a different standard for an internal promotion hire vs an outside hire. Autry was promoted, not hired from the outside. That could be a key component here in how Wildhack handles this situation. I would think it would look much worse to the outside, if we fired a head coach after two seasons we got from the outside that didn’t have the resources to succeed.

 

[Scooch]

One thing that John Wildhack has been consistent on is that he doesn’t make a change and fire a coach unless he is confident that the department has given that coach everything possible to breed success. I don’t feel that he could confidently say that going into this season. It was pretty apparent that every available dollar went to football and thank god for that!
Since then we have added a GM, and an analytics wunderkind. We had to replace one assistant coach but still have not taken advantage of the NCAA rule allowing two additional assistants that many of our conference brethren have. We absolutely underestimated the NIL landscape and thought we could build a strong roster with a $2.5MM war chest and found we really needed almost double that as two of our top portal targets backtracked to one degree or another and signed elsewhere. And we have had exactly one ACC game this year with both of our best players on the floor.

I honestly do not know if Red has what it takes for long term success in the ACC. I expect to see some significant changes in the offseason and to see a decision made a year from now after all possible support is put in place.

Good post. I agree that the AD likely feels they haven’t give Autry every possible resource to succeed.

Now, personally I think Autry has to own a lot of that. It’s abundantly clear that he didn’t come into the job with a comprehensive enough plan for NIL, staff, etc.

Regardless, they’re about to give him everything he could need for 2025-26 to be a tourney year. He needs to achieve that.

 

[Consigliere]

Even if that is the plan, we have two assistant coaches who should be shown the door. It is bad enough we have less staff. You cannot have poor staff on top of that.

Not sure how you judge assistant coaches without being at practice. I do know from a recruiting perspective Englestad bring great connections for foreign talent that can be even more critical in the NIL era and Straughan is one of, if not the most respected backtrack in the DMV. It’s no mystery why Freeman did a 180 and came back in the fold when B was hired.
And, again, we can add coaches and reswizzle responsibilities without firing a current staff member.