Feelings of Hopelessness for this Program amidst the Gaslighting

[JeremyCuse]

Coach K retired and left a program in good shape. He didn't deep six the program on the way out the door.

JB despite his legendary career stayed to long I think even the most diehard JB fan would hopefully acknowledge that. The problem is he doubled and tripled down and had to be forced out which is why we are where we are right now.

 

[Sherman20]

No, they will not. Look at football attendance:

1986: 34.5K per game
1987 (11-0-1 season): 44.5 k per game.
1988 to 2000: Lowest was 43k, some years as high as 48k AVERAGE.
1999 (post-McNabb): 46.7K
2000: 43k
2001-2004: stiil above 40k each year
2005 (GERG 1): 40k
2006: (GERG 2): 41k
2007: (GERG 3/apathy starts): 35k
2008: (GERG 4/fan punishment stage): 33k
2009: (Marrone 1/enthusiasm): 39k--still below the worst Coach P years
2010 & 2011: 40k
2012: 46k (still a few thousand below the McNabb/Graves years)
2013: Shafer 1: 38k
2014: Shafer 2: 32k
2015: Shafer 3: 33k (almost 10,000 below the Coach P years and BELOW 1986)
2016: Babers 1: 33k (same as 2015)
My data ends there and I do not feel like looking.
OK two more:
2018: Averaged 42k
2024: Averaged 39k.

So, McNabb era we averaged 46k... Marrone's 8 win season in 2012 brought 46k in... Dino's 10 win season brought 42k in... and Fran's 10 win season brought 39k in. We would not have put seats in the Dome if we thought we could EVER put 48,000 to 50,000 back in the Dome on average for a season. Those days are over and the admin knows it.

I posit that we never fully recovered from the mistake of giving GERG a 4th year. Instead of fixing apathy as it was starting during year 3, the admin cemented it by cheaply giving him year 4. While Marrone brought us some the way back with a 46k season, Shafer destroyed that reather quickly. We went from a program where .500 seasons were bad... to one where .500 seasons would now be the good ones. It wasn't "get a life" that took attendance down. It was realizing that our bar had been lowered without the admin caring at all.

Fran's 10 win season is a needed injection of hope. But unless we can string some of those seasons together... I think sellouts will be pretty rare. Even with lower capacity.

One caveat. Game Attendance has been trending down across all live sports in recent years. So it’s not just an SU thing. All franchises and teams have been impacted to some extent.

 

[HRE Otto IV]

Not sure how you judge assistant coaches without being at practice. I do know from a recruiting perspective Englestad bring great connections for foreign talent that can be even more critical in the NIL era and Straughan is one of, if not the most respected backtrack in the DMV. It’s no mystery why Freeman did a 180 and came back in the fold when B was hired.
And, again, we can add coaches and reswizzle responsibilities without firing a current staff member.

Have you watched the team? They are poorly coached. So any coach who isn't bringing in talent, needs to go.

 

[Cusefan95]

I think the program can be turned around quickly, but as Indiana has shown that isn’t easy.

As to the fans, I disagree. The longer we wait the harder it will be to get them back. This isn’t a Louisvillesque turn around, we have been at this for over a decade.

Locals and older alumni are checked out. It will take more than a Sweet 16 run to get them fully back. We need sustained success. Younger alumni have never seen Cuse BBall. They never have bought in.

There will be a lag. That means less revenue and less NIL. Which makes it harder to turn the program around in the first place.

We have a huge hole to dig out of. The longer we wait to start getting out, the harder it will be to get out.

Back in the early 2000s, I used to take my nieces and nephews to Syracuse games (1 game per kid) - that was something they would look forward to for MONTHS, talking about the game they would go to with me. Syracuse didn't win every game, but the team was consistently good and the crowd was always electric. Last year I had to negotiate with my kids (8 & 10) to go to the NC State game; even then they game was a thing they had to do with dad in order to get to do the stuff they'd actually enjoy. It wasn't quite a chore to be completed - but it was close. I didn't bother getting tickets this year.

If Syracuse had a sustained run of 2-3 good years that were at least Sweet Sixteen season - I could easily get my nieces and nephews to go to a game again. There is basically no chance my kids will ever be Syracuse basketball fans - other teams have filled that void. They might watch a game on TV once in while...that's about the max.

That sums up the issue - the longer Syracuse goes without making an NCAA tournament, the longer a sustained run of success needs to be to win back the fans that they can. Right now I think that's probably around 2-3 solidly winning seasons. And even at that - there's a growing generation of kids that have never seen a good Syracuse basketball team who are probably never going to be anything more than "watch on TV once in a while" fans.

Syracuse convinced themselves football fans would come back when the teams started winning again. Now they were so convinced that 16% are gone forever that installing seats in the Dome made sense because it was just eliminating benches that would always be empty anyway. This is going to go the same way, the university is going to be convinced fans will always come back and be shocked and totally unprepared when they don't. At least with football you can forgive them a little, they didn't know better. But after what happened with football, watching the same mentality being employed with basketball is unforgivable.

 

[AcAndAc]

One caveat. Game Attendance has been trending down across all live sports in recent years. So it’s not just an SU thing. All franchises and teams have been impacted to some extent.

But that is a measurable. Meanwhile, you have long time fan after long time fan posting that they did not even know there was a game and/or only caught some of it.

 

[LAorange44]

One caveat. Game Attendance has been trending down across all live sports in recent years. So it’s not just an SU thing. All franchises and teams have been impacted to some extent.

Agreed. But our basketball fanbase has always bucked the attendance trends. That’s what made the 30k per game such a newsworthy feat. I would posit our current decline in fanbase outpaces the general decline in all sports.

 

[OrangeinBoston]

Have you watched the team? They are poorly coached. So any coach who isn't bringing in talent, needs to go.

You could have JB and Coach K together coaching this team and it wouldn't make a difference. You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. Portal.

 

[AcAndAc]

One caveat. Game Attendance has been trending down across all live sports in recent years. So it’s not just an SU thing. All franchises and teams have been impacted to some extent.

Is that even true? See 2024 FBS Attendance Trends | College Athletics News | D1 ticker

Among ACC teams... Stanford and FSU down the most, SMU up the most. Syracuse was up, Virginia was down. Performance driven. Pitt, Miami, and Duke up. Performance driven. Cal and UNC slightly down. Performance driven.

Big 10: Illinois and Indiana... up. Northwestern, MSU, and Maryland down. Performance driven. Everyone else in B1G seems up though.

SEC: Mississippi St. down 10%, everyone else up!

Michigan State and Florida State were the only schools used to with 60,000+ attendance that went down in 2024 from the 5 year average.

Maybe there was a downward trend, but I think the playoffs injected a lot more juice into attendance as teams were still in it late. The game itself is still doing fine (despite some major problems with the portal, etc.).

 

[HRE Otto IV]

Back in the early 2000s, I used to take my nieces and nephews to Syracuse games (1 game per kid) - that was something they would look forward to for MONTHS, talking about the game they would go to with me. Syracuse didn't win every game, but the team was consistently good and the crowd was always electric. Last year I had to negotiate with my kids (8 & 10) to go to the NC State game; even then they game was a thing they had to do with dad in order to get to do the stuff they'd actually enjoy. It wasn't quite a chore to be completed - but it was close. I didn't bother getting tickets this year.

If Syracuse had a sustained run of 2-3 good years that were at least Sweet Sixteen season - I could easily get my nieces and nephews to go to a game again. There is basically no chance my kids will ever be Syracuse basketball fans - other teams have filled that void. They might watch a game on TV once in while...that's about the max.

That sums up the issue - the longer Syracuse goes without making an NCAA tournament, the longer a sustained run of success needs to be to win back the fans that they can. Right now I think that's probably around 2-3 solidly winning seasons. And even at that - there's a growing generation of kids that have never seen a good Syracuse basketball team who are probably never going to be anything more than "watch on TV once in a while" fans.

Syracuse convinced themselves football fans would come back when the teams started winning again. Now they were so convinced that 16% are gone forever that installing seats in the Dome made sense because it was just eliminating benches that would always be empty anyway. This is going to go the same way, the university is going to be convinced fans will always come back and be shocked and totally unprepared when they don't. At least with football you can forgive them a little, they didn't know better. But after what happened with football, watching the same mentality being employed with basketball is unforgivable.

The last time SU played a game while ranked past December 5th in both the AP & Coaches polls was in March of 2014 (we did have a game on 12-15-18 where we were tied for 25th in the AP). People under 20 have no idea what it is like when Cuse is in the house.

Anyone who graduated between 2018-2025 will have never been to a game in the Dome where we were ranked after FB season ended.

It is going to take awhile to cultivate these younger fans when they have never really experienced what Cuse BBall really is. They aren't coming back, as they have never been there in the first place.

 

[kingtidge]

You could have JB and Coach K together coaching this team and it wouldn't make a difference. You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. Portal.

I don't buy it.

It's just the goalposts being moved.

I get they are now saying "Red got his guys but we didn't give him enough $$ to get good guys. He needs more time and more money and another crack at it."

We certainly need a combination of more money, better recruit/portal targeting, and WAY better coaching.

# 1 on the the list is WAY better coaching, tho.

There are literally more than a 100 teams doing better than us - and a lot of them with a lot LESS resources than we have.

Our combined recruiting (highschool and portal) is top 50 and we're what, #128 in KenPom??

You telling me that the likes of Lipscomb or Grand Canyon are at a level we just can't compete with currently because of portal and that our collective recruiting ranking is completely flawed?? Thank God we didn't play St. Bonaventure this year.

 

[RF2044]

I don't buy it.

It's just the goalposts being moved.

I get they are now saying "Red got his guys but we didn't give him enough $$ to get good guys. He needs more time and more money and another crack at it."

We certainly need a combination of more money, better recruit/portal targeting, and WAY better coaching.

# 1 on the the list is way better coaching, tho.

There are literally more than a 100 teams doing better than us with a lot less resources.

Our combined recruiting (highschool and portal) is top 50 and we're what, #128 in KenPom??

You telling me that the likes of Lipscomb or Grand Canyon are at a level we just can't compete with currently because of portal??

Post of the year.

And those KenPom ratings say it all. The product we're seeing on the court is historically bad. Which is why the "talent / NIL" dismissals of the status quo ring hollow.

 

[OrangeinBoston]

I don't buy it.

It's just the goalposts being moved.

I get they are now saying "Red got his guys but we didn't give him enough $$ to get good guys. He needs more time and more money and another crack at it."

We certainly need a combination of more money, better recruit/portal targeting, and WAY better coaching.

# 1 on the the list is way better coaching, tho.

There are literally more than a 100 teams doing better than us with a lot less resources.

Our combined recruiting (highschool and portal) is top 50 and we're what, #128 in KenPom??

You telling me that the likes of Lipscomb or Grand Canyon are at a level we just can't compete with currently because of portal??

No, I am saying we need to turn almost the entire roster over via the portal.

 

[kingtidge]

No, I am saying we need to turn almost the entire roster over via the portal.

That alone, will fix nothing, is what I am saying.

 

[atlanticuse]

I second the Jerrod Mayo comparison, as I posted earlier.
This is a new world. There is no lifetime employment, nor guarantees.
Based on fan reaction and a lack of NCAAT - and ACCT? - appearances, the administration should take a hard look at replacing Red.
And for those who posted buyouts = [number of years] x [salary], that's not how it works.
Red protects himself, and so does the university.

 

[atlanticuse]

No, I am saying we need to turn almost the entire roster over via the portal.

but then how do we make that work next year?

12 new players? Can Red turn that into 25 wins?

 

[SimonSays]

No recruiting class is ever worth keeping a coach over.
No recruiting class is ever worth holding a program hostage over.

this.

 

[Cusefan95]

But that is a measurable. Meanwhile, you have long time fan after long time fan posting that they did not even know there was a game and/or only caught some of it.

Its what a multiple regression analysis is for, to see how strong the impact is of various factors. When you actually analyze the data, the impact of a general decline in attendance is very, very small. And it really only applies on the very upper range of attendance - if you said Syracuse won't average 28K+ at basketball anymore because fans don't go to games the way they did 30 years ago, I agree. When we're looking at football attendance in 1998 compared to today in football, claiming its because fans don't go to games anymore doesn't pass the sniff test.

Saying "fans don't go to games anymore" to explain depressed attendance is a favored tactic for pro sports teams with inept leadership and colleges who have mismanaged their athletic departments. While there's a tiny little piece of truth in the statement, its mostly used to avoid admitting how badly run the organization is.

 

[Scooch]

The last time SU played a game while ranked past December 5th in both the AP & Coaches polls was in March of 2014 (we did have a game on 12-15-18 where we were tied for 25th in the AP). People under 20 have no idea what it is like when Cuse is in the house.

Anyone who graduated between 2018-2025 will have never been to a game in the Dome where we were ranked after FB season ended.

It is going to take awhile to cultivate these younger fans when they have never really experienced what Cuse BBall really is. They aren't coming back, as they have never been there in the first place.

This is an important point when it comes to fan engagement.

We've made a final 4 run, and 2 sweet sixteen runs, in the past decade. But we've done incredibly little to engage fans from November through early March for a lonnnnnng time. And that's what drives ticket sales.

For a decade we've been a program that has largely mediocre regular seasons, but once in a while pops off with a tourney run. And the latter is getting further and further in the rear view.

It's not good.

 

[Marsh01]

This is an important point when it comes to fan engagement.

We've made a final 4 run, and 2 sweet sixteen runs, in the past decade. But we've done incredibly little to engage fans from November through early March for a lonnnnnng time. And that's what drives ticket sales.

For a decade we've been a program that has largely mediocre regular seasons, but once in a while pops off with a tourney run. And the latter is getting further and further in the rear view.

It's not good.

This right here

Im tired our seasons hopes ending before christmas. Amazing we havent been to a tourney in 4 years now.

I give credit to the fans who have gone to games this season. This will be my first year since the dome opened where i wont go to a hoops game. Just no interest. I cant remember the last game i actually watched. Probably early january. This team isnt fun to watch, is so poorly coached and i dont even think we have hit rock bottom yet.

I hope Red can turn it around. I have my doubts. It needs to completely blown up and i dont see that happening next season.

 

[hoopsupstate]

Not sure how you judge assistant coaches without being at practice. I do know from a recruiting perspective Englestad bring great connections for foreign talent that can be even more critical in the NIL era and Straughan is one of, if not the most respected backtrack in the DMV. It’s no mystery why Freeman did a 180 and came back in the fold when B was hired.
And, again, we can add coaches and reswizzle responsibilities without firing a current staff member.

Thank you for being a voice of reason. It’s so easy for people to say you need to replace the staff with zero knowledge about what happens in practice and in recruiting. We can add two coaches without releasing anyone. I’m curious the direction Red takes in adding coaches.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Had to laugh when I heard Griff state the basketball program needs their Kyle McCord. Not one player is fixing this mess. We have systemic issues across the board. If that's what they think then basically we are just running out the clock next year if the entire staff is back. At least the football program had multiple pros already on the roster.

 

[RF2044]

Had to laugh when I heard Griff state the basketball program needs their Kyle McCord. Not one player is fixing this mess. We have systemic issues across the board. If that's what they think then basically we are just running out the clock next year if the entire staff is back. At least the football program had multiple pros already on the roster.

Well, that's one way to compensate for / overcome poor coaching -- have an elite caliber player [or players] who are so good, that they transcend the limitations and elevate the program.

But absent such a blue chip savior, it's probably a more viable strategy to actually have a coach who knows what they're doing, who has implemented viable systems on both sides of the ball, who recruits quality system fits, and coaches the players up so that they get better.

When I hear fans point to NIL to absolve the head coach, they are ignoring how fantastically bad we are this season -- measured via numerous quantitative analyses. We are historically bad. That isn't going to get better by just adding some players to an already dysfunctional mix.

[none of this relates to you, cusefan0307 -- I'm just reacting to what you posted]

 

[OrangeinBoston]

Well, that's one way to compensate for / overcome poor coaching -- have an elite caliber player [or players] who are so good, that they transcend the limitations and elevate the program.

But absent such a blue chip savior, it's probably a more viable strategy to actually have a coach who knows what they're doing, who has implemented viable systems on both sides of the ball, who recruits quality system fits, and coaches the players up so that they get better.

When I hear fans point to NIL to absolve the head coach, they are ignoring how fantastically bad we are this season -- measured via numerous quantitative analyses. We are historically bad. That isn't going to get better by just adding some players to an already dysfunctional mix.

[none of this relates to you, cusefan0307 -- I'm just reacting to what you posted]

An elite level player would be great, and maybe SU is getting one with the two top recruits coming in. But, SU needs ACC-level players across the board.

I turned on the Duke vs Clemson game last week. It looked like I was watching players from a different planet.

Look, Eddie is a solid ACC-level player. Starling...kind of. The rest have no business playing in the ACC.

 

[Jack_Ball]

One thing that John Wildhack has been consistent on is that he doesn’t make a change and fire a coach unless he is confident that the department has given that coach everything possible to breed success. I don’t feel that he could confidently say that going into this season. It was pretty apparent that every available dollar went to football and thank god for that!
Since then we have added a GM, and an analytics wunderkind. We had to replace one assistant coach but still have not taken advantage of the NCAA rule allowing two additional assistants that many of our conference brethren have. We absolutely underestimated the NIL landscape and thought we could build a strong roster with a $2.5MM war chest and found we really needed almost double that as two of our top portal targets backtracked to one degree or another and signed elsewhere. And we have had exactly one ACC game this year with both of our best players on the floor.

I honestly do not know if Red has what it takes for long term success in the ACC. I expect to see some significant changes in the offseason and to see a decision made a year from now after all possible support is put in place.

Agree but hope your wrong as this is exactly what he did with Dino & Football

 

[sufan59]

Had to laugh when I heard Griff state the basketball program needs their Kyle McCord. Not one player is fixing this mess. We have systemic issues across the board. If that's what they think then basically we are just running out the clock next year if the entire staff is back. At least the football program had multiple pros already on the roster.

The basketball roster today is made up of mostly former 4 and 5 star players out of High School and 4 star transfers….