Final Fours

[SWC75]

Syracuse is now going to its 6th Final Four. I decided to see how that compared to other schools. National championship years are in bold.


19- North Carolina (1946, 1957, 1967, 1968, 1969, 1972, 1977, 1981, 1982, 1991, 1993, 1995, 1997, 1998, 2000, 2005, 2008, 2009, 2016)

18- UCLA (1962, 1964, 1965, 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1974, 1975, 1976, 1980, 1995, 2006, 2007, 2008)


17- Kentucky (1942, 1948, 1949, 1951, 1958, 1966, 1975, 1978, 1984, 1993, 1996, 1997, 1998, 2011, 2012, 2014, 2015)


16- Duke (1963, 1964, 1966, 1978, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1990, 1991, 1992, 1994, 1999, 2001, 2004, 2010, 2015)


14- Kansas (1940, 1952, 1953, 1957, 1971, 1974, 1986, 1988, 1991, 1993, 2002, 2003, 2008, 2012)


11- Ohio State (1939, 1944, 1945, 1946, 1960, 1961, 1962, 1968, 1999, 2007, 2012)


10- Louisville (1959, 1972, 1975, 1980, 1982, 1983, 1986, 2005, 2012, 2013)


9- Michigan State (1957, 1979, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2005, 2009, 2010, 2015)


8- Indiana (1940, 1953, 1973, 1976, 1981, 1987, 1992, 2002)


7- Michigan (1964, 1965, 1976, 1989, 1992, 1993, 2013)


6- Arkansas (1941, 1945, 1978, 1990, 1994, 1995), Cincinnati (1959, 1960, 1961, 1962, 1963, 1992), Oklahoma State (1945, 1946, 1949, 1951, 1995, 2004), Syracuse (1975, 1987, 1996, 2003, 2013, 2016)


5- Connecticut (1999, 2004, 2009, 2011, 2014), Florida , (1994, 2000, 2006, 2007, 2014), Houston, (1967, 1968, 1982, 1983, 1984), Illinois, (1949, 1951, 1952, 1989, 2005), Oklahoma, (1939, 1947, 1988, 2002, 2016), Georgetown, (1943, 1982, 1984, 1985, 2007), Utah, (1944, 1961, 1966, 1998), Villanova (1939, 1971, 1985, 2009, 2016)


4- Arizona (1988, 1994, 1997, 2001), Kansas State (1948, 1951, 1958, 1964), Louisiana State (1953, 1981, 1986, 2006), UNLV (1977, 1987, 1990, 1991), Wisconsin (1941, 2000, 2014, 2015)


3- California (1946, 1959, 1960), Iowa (1955, 1956, 1980), Marquette (1974, 1977, 2003), Memphis (1973, 1985, 2008), North Carolina State (1950, 1974, 1983), San Francisco, (1955, 1956, 1957), Texas (1943, 1947, 2003)


2- Baylor, (1948, 1950), Bradley, (1950, 1954), Butler (2010, 2011), CCNY, (1947, 1950), Colorado (1942, 1955), Dartmouth (1942, 1944), DePaul (1943, 1979), Drake, (1969, 1980), Georgia Tech (1990, 2004), Holy Cross (1947, 1948), LaSalle (1954, 1955), Maryland (2001, 2002), New York U. (1945, 1960), Oregon State, (1949, 1963), Providence (1987), Seton Hall, (1989), Temple, 1956, 1958), St. John’s (1952, (185), Southern California (1940, 1954), Stanford (1942, 1998),Virginia (1981, 1984), West Virginia 1959, 2010), Wichita State (1965, 2013)


1- Charlotte (1977), Dayton (1967), Duquesne (1940), Florida State (1972), George Mason (2006), Georgia (1982), Indiana State (1979), Jacksonville (1970), Loyola-Chicago (1963), Massachusetts 1996), Minnesota (1997), Mississippi State (1996), New Mexico (1970), Notre Dame (1978), Oregon (1939), Pennsylvania (1979), Penn State (1954), Pittsburgh 1941, Princeton (1965), Purdue (1969), Rutgers (1976), St. Bonaventure (1970), Saint Joseph’s (1961), Santa Clara (1952), Seattle (1958), Southern Methodist (1956), Texas –El Paso (1966), Virginia Commonwealth ( 2011), Wake Forest (1962), Washington (1953), Washington State (1941), Western Kentucky (1971)

We are climbing the list but are quite a ways from joining the true historical blue-bloods. But we are even with or ahead of some very famous programs.

 

[NKR1978]

We need two more to get some separation from programs that used to be good.

 

[SWC75]

I decided to measure the strength of the Final Fours since seeding teams started in 1979 by adding their seeds together:

1979 14
1980 21
1981 7
1982 11
1983 12
1984 11
1985 12
1986 15
1987 10
1988 10
1989 9
1990 12
1991 7
1992 9
1993 5
1994 8
1995 9
1996 11
1997 7
1998 6
1999 7
2000 22
2001 7
2002 9
2003 9
2004 8
2005 11
2006 20
2007 6
2008 4
2009 7
2010 13
2011 26
2012 9
2013 18
2014 18
2015 10
2016 15

There's a pretty strong tend for 'weaker' final fours and this one is not exceptional.

 

[andyw715]

So when there was an 8 team field and you won a game they called it the Final Four?

When did "Final Four" nomenclature come about?

 

[orangehomer]

yeah man, it has only been a 64 team field since 1985. so our idea of what a final four is compared to what it was then is quite a bit different. so to just blindly include final fours going back to the 40's and 50's is kind of meh. i'm not picking a fight or criticizing your analysis. we've done pretty well since it has been a 64 team field in the sense of how people scrutinize the tournament now, as opposed to the 40's when there was no TV.

edit: think about it some of these schools have multiple "final 4's" when there was no TV and like 20 teams in the "tournament". it is a totally different thing now.

 

[andyw715]

Well the reason why I brought up the smaller field is that a UNC fan friend had a Facebook post boasting about UNCs 19 FFs

Not to minimize their achievements but some of the early ones are with fields of 8/16/20/25 teams. I guess making that small field is an accomplishment in and of itself but to group those as equivalent to FFs from the larger fields doesn't seem right

 

[Rage4CUSE]

If you count only FF from '85 on, SU would be tied at 6th instead of 11th.

 

[UNC Blue]

According to the list the NCAA put out, UCLA has 17 FF along with UK, and this is UNC's 19th FF.

 

[br801]

Kansas has really underachieved with all those Final Four appearances and only three titles. Hell, they couldn't even win one with Wilt. Are they really a blueblood program?

 

[SWC75]

According to the list the NCAA put out, UCLA has 17 FF along with UK, and this is UNC's 19th FF.

Feel free to find the ones I missed: http://www.shrpsports.com/cb/brackets.htm

As far as not counting certain Final Fours, it was a 64 team field in 1975, either but we count that as a Final Four. The teams that won the tournament before the 64 team field are considered national champions, even though they had to win fewer games to do so. What's wrong with counting "final fours" for the same period.

It was a two regional tournament until 1956. The team who made the regional finals were the "final four". All four of them advanced to one location to decide the championship for the first time in 1952: the regional finals were the national semi-finals.

 

[UNC Blue]

Syracuse is now going to its 6th Final Four. I decided to see how that compared to other schools. National championship years are in bold.


18- North Carolina (1946, 1957, 1967, 1968, 1969, 1972, 1977, 1981, 1982, 1991, 1993, 1995, 1998, 2000, 2005, 2008, 2009, 2016),

1946, 1957, 1967, 1968, 1969, 1972, 1977, 1981, 1982, 1991, 1993, 1995, 1997, 1998, 2000, 2005, 2008, 2009, 2016

Looking at that list, it seems you left the 1997 FF out. 97 was the year Az got hot and we lost to them.

 

[Briancuse]

We need two more to get some separation from programs that used to be good.

Well another great thing about this final four, is we pass Gtown and Uconn in final fours.

 

[andyw715]

As long as 2016 is not bold for UNC, the numbers can be whatever they like to be.

 

[Devland]

If NC wins it all this year they will have one of the easiest paths.
http://ftw.usatoday.com/2016/03/201...-tar-heels-easy-bracket-history-highest-seeds

 

[UNC Blue]

If NC wins it all this year they will have one of the easiest paths.
http://ftw.usatoday.com/2016/03/201...-tar-heels-easy-bracket-history-highest-seeds

A few points on that.
1) I find this hilarious, after the NCAA stacked the East, laying landmines for UNC all throughout the bracket. The East was pretty much the consensus "toughest bracket", so we see how that works out at times.
2) I laugh at any ranking that has the 2010 dook tournament schedule ranked that high. The friggin seas parted, in 2010, for dook. Every "worst case" scenario, for a Tar Heel fan, came true in dook's bracket.
3) That said, I don't give a dadggumit how "easy" they say it is, if UNC wins. Still another championship, still another banner headed up into the rafters.

 

[Briancuse]

A few points on that.
1) I find this hilarious, after the NCAA stacked the East, laying landmines for UNC all throughout the bracket. The East was pretty much the consensus "toughest bracket", so we see how that works out at times.
2) I laugh at any ranking that has the 2010 dook tournament schedule ranked that high. The friggin seas parted, in 2010, for dook. Every "worst case" scenario, for a Tar Heel fan, came true in dook's bracket.
3) That said, I don't give a dadggumit how "easy" they say it is, if UNC wins. Still another championship, still another banner headed up into the rafters.

The top of the east bracket was very tough, the bottom not so much.

 

[SWC75]

1946, 1957, 1967, 1968, 1969, 1972, 1977, 1981, 1982, 1991, 1993, 1995, 1997, 1998, 2000, 2005, 2008, 2009, 2016

Looking at that list, it seems you left the 1997 FF out. 97 was the year Az got hot and we lost to them.

I stand corrected. I did recount UCLA and they do have 18.

 

[SWC75]

A few points on that.
1) I find this hilarious, after the NCAA stacked the East, laying landmines for UNC all throughout the bracket. The East was pretty much the consensus "toughest bracket", so we see how that works out at times.
2) I laugh at any ranking that has the 2010 dook tournament schedule ranked that high. The friggin seas parted, in 2010, for dook. Every "worst case" scenario, for a Tar Heel fan, came true in dook's bracket.
3) That said, I don't give a dadggumit how "easy" they say it is, if UNC wins. Still another championship, still another banner headed up into the rafters.

I see SU had the third toughest road to the title, which is interesting because the ESPN College Basketball encyclopedia lists our champs as the 9th worst national champion of all time because we lost to Rutgers on the Lamizana shot.

 

[HOFCeluck]

Yeah not sure you can say it was "Easier" to get to.the final four when you had to win your conference tournament just to get invited .

 

[UNC Blue]

I stand corrected. I did recount UCLA and they do have 18.

Looked into it and found out the discrepancy, UCLA had their 1980 FF vacated by the NCAA, leaving them with 17.

 

[Knicks411]

I see SU had the third toughest road to the title, which is interesting because the ESPN College Basketball encyclopedia lists our champs as the 9th worst national champion of all time because we lost to Rutgers on the Lamizana shot.

I think on some level there's going to be an inverse correlation between seed and path to the final. If you're a 1 seed, you obviously can't face a 1 seed until the final four, and you can only face a 2 or 3 seed in the first 4 games, but not both.

 

[HOFCeluck]

I see SU had the third toughest road to the title, which is interesting because the ESPN College Basketball encyclopedia lists our champs as the 9th worst national champion of all time because we lost to Rutgers on the Lamizana shot.

I guess it's taboo to say this on a Syracuse message board, but I would agree that our team was one of the weaker national champs of the modern era.

 

[Knicks411]

I guess it's taboo to say this on a Syracuse message board, but I would agree that our team was one of the weaker national champs of the modern era.

UConn is doing as much as they can to make us look good in this respect. I would think, off the top of my head, we're probably below average for the last 15-20 years.

 

[Alsacs]

I guess it's taboo to say this on a Syracuse message board, but I would agree that our team was one of the weaker national champs of the modern era.

That 03 team had Carmelo.

It is better than 1997 Arizona, 2002 Maryland, 2006 Florida, 2011 UConn, 2014 UConn.

Our 03 team wasn't a weaker champ IMO.
The team was young and had really good talent.

 

[HOFCeluck]

That 03 team had Carmelo.

It is better than 1997 Arizona, 2002 Maryland, 2006 Florida, 2011 UConn, 2014 UConn.

Our 03 team wasn't a weaker champ IMO.
The team was young and had really good talent.

I would agree with all those except 2002. Dixon was a great college player and we'd have no answer for Lonny Baxter.

But beyond those you listed I struggle to come up with any others we'd clearly have an advantage over.

 

[Knicks411]

That 03 team had Carmelo.

It is better than 1997 Arizona, 2002 Maryland, 2006 Florida, 2011 UConn, 2014 UConn.

Our 03 team wasn't a weaker champ IMO.
The team was young and had really good talent.

06 Florida had 3 guys who went in the top 10 of the 07 draft. I dunno on that one. Don't think I can agree with you on that one.