Following a Legend (Updated) | Page 3 | Syracusefan.com

Following a Legend (Updated)

Your baseline is better than JB's record. You might want to go find a new team to root for.

In today's landscape it is very hard to have that type of success at ANY P5 school. There is too much parity. There is also the kids leaving early issue which didn't happen 10 years ago. Heck since we joined the ACC Coach K's W% in ACC play yields a 13.8 and 6.2 record. If you want to take out last Covid season it is still only 14.4 and 5.6. I don't expect Duke nor UNC to average 14-6 going forward. So IMO it is unrealistic to expect SU to average 13-7.

If we are winning 2/3 of our games, we as a fan base should be content. That should be our baseline. Under 2/3 you get fired. Which equates to a 24-12 overall record and will keep us a Top 15 program. Telling a HC that they get fired for 26-11 is insane.
It’s not better than JB’s record. It’s based on his historical record and I gave you the details behind it and the calculations.

I see lots of excuses and the ACC isn’t great.

Go 22-10 one year fine, but long term it’s not good enough.

Kansas, Baylor, and Villanova have no problem winning 25 games in the regular season every year. We shouldn’t most years either.
 
It’s not better than JB’s record. It’s based on his historical record and I gave you the details behind it and the calculations.

I see lots of excuses and the ACC isn’t great.

Go 22-10 one year fine, but long term it’s not good enough.

Kansas, Baylor, and Villanova have no problem winning 25 games in the regular season every year. We shouldn’t most years either.

You gave JB's W% then what your baseline (not sure you know the meaning of the word) and it was higher than JB.

22-10 was regular season. Add in ACCT and NCAAT and 24-12.

We are not Kansas. Nova has the Big East which is easier. Baylor has done that they last few seasons not every year. They had a losing conference record in 2018.

I am starting to think 07 was your DOB.
 
You gave JB's W% then what your baseline (not sure you know the meaning of the word) and it was higher than JB.

22-10 was regular season. Add in ACCT and NCAAT and 24-12.

We are not Kansas. Nova has the Big East which is easier. Baylor has done that they last few seasons not every year. They had a losing conference record in 2018.

I am starting to think 07 was your DOB.

I left out personal attacks, but you didn't. It's apparent you can't do math.

On average JB is 24(1083/45)-9(409/45) and that includes the last 7 years of mediocrity. That is a 72% winning percentage. 27-10 and 24-9 are basically the same winning percentage.

And last I checked the Big East is better than the ACC. You're cherry picking data. You picked the one season out of the last 9 Baylor missed the tournament.

Long term 22-10 every season is not good enough for Syracuse
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: sam
The chances of our next HC having the lengthy successful career JB has had is slim to none. But you are comparing his entire body of work with the next HC. That is highly flawed. Of course a school won't have back to back "legends" that is a silly premise. Our next HC shouldn't be judged on JB's entire career but on the end of his career. Our next HC could be viewed as being very successful by getting us to 22-10 (12-8). That is a big improvement over the last 8 seasons. But it is worse than the last 50 seasons. So you are going to view him as a failure?

Been there, done that.
 
The chances of our next HC having the lengthy successful career JB has had is slim to none. But you are comparing his entire body of work with the next HC. That is highly flawed. Of course a school won't have back to back "legends" that is a silly premise. Our next HC shouldn't be judged on JB's entire career but on the end of his career. Our next HC could be viewed as being very successful by getting us to 22-10 (12-8). That is a big improvement over the last 8 seasons. But it is worse than the last 50 seasons. So you are going to view him as a failure?
May be your didn't read the entire thread?

The initial comparison study SWC did was to compare a legend's overall records with his immediate successor. It showed overwhelmingly the successors are less successful.

Then the updated version did the comparison NOT based in the legend's entire long career, but only his last five years, with the assumption that a legend's records near the end of his career will be on a decline. Those results still says a successor, most likely, cannot do better than the legend's last five years of declining records.

This is eye opening and while it does not point to a solution for a path back to the better days, it may be a predictor of some bumpy roads ahead.

It's amazing the effort SWC put into this, incredible information to chew on.
 
What is not disputable is there has never been a succeeding coach who is a son (
Meyer, Sutton, JT although JT3 was not an immediate successor) that had a happy ending.
 
I left out personal attacks, but you didn't. It's apparent you can't do math.

On average JB is 24(1083/45)-9(409/45) and that includes the last 7 years of mediocrity. That is a 72% winning percentage. 27-10 and 24-9 are basically the same winning percentage.

And last I checked the Big East is better than the ACC. You're cherry picking data. You picked the one season out of the last 9 Baylor missed the tournament.

Long term 22-10 every season is not good enough for Syracuse
Cherry picking data is taking Baylor's last 2 seasons and ignoring the prior 10.

You aren't good at math that is fine. 73% > 72%. A baseline means you want the next guy to be better than JB.
 
Cherry picking data is taking Baylor's last 2 seasons and ignoring the prior 10.

You aren't good at math that is fine. 73% > 72%. A baseline means you want the next guy to be better than JB.
You’re splitting hairs to be a . My point still remains. 27-10 or 26-11 should be an average Syracuse season.
 
May be your didn't read the entire thread?

The initial comparison study SWC did was to compare a legend's overall records with his immediate successor. It showed overwhelmingly the successors are less successful.

Then the updated version did the comparison NOT based in the legend's entire long career, but only his last five years, with the assumption that a legend's records near the end of his career will be on a decline. Those results still says a successor, most likely, cannot do better than the legend's last five years of declining records.

This is eye opening and while it does not point to a solution for a path back to the better days, it may be a predictor of some bumpy roads ahead.

It's amazing the effort SWC put into this, incredible information to chew on.

I didn't want to get into it but there are a lot of flaws with his data. Even using his data the internal hires account for most of the failures. The external hires did much better.
 
You’re splitting hairs to be a . My point still remains. 27-10 or 26-11 should be an average Syracuse season.

You are saying you expect an average season at SU to have the same overall winning percentage as JB's entire career. Do you really think that is realistic given the current college basketball environment? IMO it is harder in today's game to go 27-10 than it was in the 1980s.

-Recruiting is national. No longer is there an advantage to your location.

-Kids are free to go portal if they don't get PT. They no longer are willing to wait their time.

-Kids used to leave if they were a Top 10 pick. Now lots of kids leave early, some of which don't even get drafted.

-The schedules are a lot harder. There are less OOC cupcake games. When you go from 16 conference games to 20, there will be more losses. That is the case for every school, even Duke.

This year we have 20 ACC games, 2 games vs the Big East, 1 game vs the B1G, 1 game vs the P12, 1 game against the SEC, and only 6 games vs mid majors. That is just over 80% of our games vs major competition. The year we won the title we played 16 Big East games, 1 B1G, 1 B12, 1 ACC, 7 mid majors, and Memphis (CUSA, major?). Including Memphis as a major we had 74% of our games vs major competition. So we play more games now than back then, and a higher % of quality opponents. That will lead to more losses.
 
You are saying you expect an average season at SU to have the same overall winning percentage as JB's entire career. Do you really think that is realistic given the current college basketball environment? IMO it is harder in today's game to go 27-10 than it was in the 1980s.

-Recruiting is national. No longer is there an advantage to your location.

-Kids are free to go portal if they don't get PT. They no longer are willing to wait their time.

-Kids used to leave if they were a Top 10 pick. Now lots of kids leave early, some of which don't even get drafted.

-The schedules are a lot harder. There are less OOC cupcake games. When you go from 16 conference games to 20, there will be more losses. That is the case for every school, even Duke.

This year we have 20 ACC games, 2 games vs the Big East, 1 game vs the B1G, 1 game vs the P12, 1 game against the SEC, and only 6 games vs mid majors. That is just over 80% of our games vs major competition. The year we won the title we played 16 Big East games, 1 B1G, 1 B12, 1 ACC, 7 mid majors, and Memphis (CUSA, major?). Including Memphis as a major we had 74% of our games vs major competition. So we play more games now than back then, and a higher % of quality opponents. That will lead to more losses.

I do. I could have taken out the last 7 years and the average for JB would have been 25-7.

The portal is no excuse and either is recruiting. Get a good recruiter in here and someone who can take advantage of the portal and this job is no worse than the 4th or 5th best job in the ACC. It was voted the 4th best job in the ACC two years ago. These are just excuses. Other schools get it done and we can to. We are basically one superstar player away now. That's all it takes in basketball. This is not football.

I expect 13-7 ACC(we play BC and Pitt 2 times every year FFS). We should sweep those schools every year being how terrible they are currently. That means we just need to go 9-7 against the rest of the conference. That should be doable.

This year we should have beat Georgetown, VCU, and Colgate. I would have accepted an 8-3 conference record this season considering how difficult the schedule was.

The OOC can be open debate depending on the season, but we are Syracuse and we should beat the Iowas, Rutgers, Penn States, Oklahoma States, Old Dominion's, Buffalo's, South Carolina's, Wisconsin's and St' Johns of the world's 90 percent of the time and since 2014 we have lost about 90% of the time.
 
Last edited:
I didn't want to get into it but there are a lot of flaws with his data. Even using his data the internal hires account for most of the failures. The external hires did much better.


But still not as well, on average as the legendary coach they replaced.
 
Actually you didn't. You cannot assume that every situation is the same.

I didn't. The overall numbers are still significant. And the statements I put in bold are exactly what I did in the requested study.
 
Actually you didn't. You cannot assume that every situation is the same.

Not every situation is the same, obviously, but the more data points you have, the more relevant the collective information becomes. The assumption being that while every situation is different, the larger the sample size the more variations of these situations are captured to give a general trend. You can dismiss the outliers, you can debate whether 5 years of records is representative, you can even debate who qualifies as a "legend" but I think the results of this exhaustive research is relevant.

That is not to say SU cannot execute an outlier succession when JB retires.

If only identical situations can be harvested to use for these types of discussions, then we don't have much to discuss and speculate. Heck we can't even say a 30-5 season is better than a 18-13 season because those are different seasons, different teams, different opponents, different venues, different weathers, different times, different referees, different substitutions, thus all different situations.
 
Not every situation is the same, obviously, but the more data points you have, the more relevant the collective information becomes. The assumption being that while every situation is different, the larger the sample size the more variations of these situations are captured to give a general trend. You can dismiss the outliers, you can debate whether 5 years of records is representative, you can even debate who qualifies as a "legend" but I think the results of this exhaustive research is relevant.

That is not to say SU cannot execute an outlier succession when JB retires.

If only identical situations can be harvested to use for these types of discussions, then we don't have much to discuss and speculate. Heck we can't even say a 30-5 season is better than a 18-13 season because those are different seasons, different teams, different opponents, different venues, different weathers, different times, different referees, different substitutions, thus all different situations.

Just in general there are a lot of things about these numbers that IMO should be dismissed.

For example any HC that left before 1990 probably shouldn't be included. It is a different era of basketball. The 1980s brought TV and more $ to the game. The NCAAT didn't go to 64 until 1985.

I would also leave out mid major HCs. Those schools do not have the prestige nor money to entice quality HCs. So naturally they will be worse than the predecessor.

What constitutes a "legend"? The criteria used seems random. How is Tubby Smith a Kentucky legend? How is Jud Heathcote not a legend? Can someone be a legend if they were fired?

Since schools are 4 year institutions, IMO it is better to look at the 4 years prior compared to the 4 years after. The immediate replacement shouldn't really matter. Going back to Tubby, Kentucky was absolutely better off the 4 years after compared to the 4 years prior.

For Arizona, Sean Miller should be used not Kevin O'Neill. Lute Olson retired the season after O'Neill left. How can one be a successor to someone who hasn't left yet?

When you take all of the above into account, it lessens the numbers provided by a significant margin.
 
Wasn't that 2020 season the one where their best player was out for a huge chunk of the season? Cole Anthony? If we had a first round, #15 pick to take away, i imagine we could finish 14-19 or worse.
If you watched our first-round ACC tournament beat-down of UNC that season, you would not think highly of Cole Anthony. And I don't think he was their best player.
 
If you watched our first-round ACC tournament beat-down of UNC that season, you would not think highly of Cole Anthony. And I don't think he was their best player.
I don't think you can make assessments based on one game. We also stifled and contained James Harden.

Cole Anthony was a first round, #15 pick into the NBA. He's averaging nigh on 20 points a game in the NBA now. All i was suggesting is that, if we had a player who could do that/who was considered our best/most important player, and lost him for such a significant part of the season, we might also find ourselves with a 14-19 record. That's all.

If we didn't have Buddy, we might not win ten ****ing games. Not ten ****ing games.
 
Not every situation is the same, obviously, but the more data points you have, the more relevant the collective information becomes. The assumption being that while every situation is different, the larger the sample size the more variations of these situations are captured to give a general trend. You can dismiss the outliers, you can debate whether 5 years of records is representative, you can even debate who qualifies as a "legend" but I think the results of this exhaustive research is relevant.

That is not to say SU cannot execute an outlier succession when JB retires.

If only identical situations can be harvested to use for these types of discussions, then we don't have much to discuss and speculate. Heck we can't even say a 30-5 season is better than a 18-13 season because those are different seasons, different teams, different opponents, different venues, different weathers, different times, different referees, different substitutions, thus all different situations.
That might be true in some circumstances, but definitely not in this one. Here, irrelevant data points skew the result toward irrelevancy. Just look at it at a micro view:

Danny Kaspar was .713 at Stephen . Austin. His successor, Brad Underwood was .864 = +148 points

Danny Kaspar, Brad Underwood, and Steven . Austin have zero relevance to a HC job at Syracuse University. Zero. Expand this by adding a thousand more instances/datapoints like this and you see that it doesn't do anything toward making our situation more predictable. Ironically, we can't even say it makes the predictability worse—because the aggregate might just balance out, coincidentally. It's just an increase in the noise to signal ratio when you want the opposite—more signal (more 'qualified' data). [I've been working with data people for a relatively short time and i'm already talking and thinking like them. I hate it!]

As noted above, there are just too many factors that determine whether a coach can or will be successful. Facilities, reputation, playing style, opposing conference talent level, geography, fanbase, legacy, NBA profile, age and energy, sanctions, academic standards, value of the degree, incumbent position within a conference, headspace within a conference, conference shifts/realignments, proximity to impact players, how willing you are to bend the rules or cheat, how much rope the AD/fans/media gives you, weather, coed hotness, uniforms, player idols and role models... There are scads more, even before you get into the individual coach's personality, skills, and character.
 
I mean unless JB does become a zombie and just never stops coaching at some point there will be a guy that follows the guy.

The odds aren't great they'll be more successful, but it doesn't matter really. The AD's objective will be to make the hire that puts the odds in our favor.
 
I don't think you can make assessments based on one game. We also stifled and contained James Harden.

Cole Anthony was a first round, #15 pick into the NBA. He's averaging nigh on 20 points a game in the NBA now. All i was suggesting is that, if we had a player who could do that/who was considered our best/most important player, and lost him for such a significant part of the season, we might also find ourselves with a 14-19 record. That's all.

If we didn't have Buddy, we might not win ten ****ing games. Not ten ****ing games.
As was pointed out elsewhere, UNC was 10-12 with Anthony 2 seasons ago. He may turn out to be a good pro. He was not a very good college player that season.
 

Forum statistics

Threads
170,700
Messages
4,905,848
Members
6,006
Latest member
MikeBoum

Online statistics

Members online
256
Guests online
2,212
Total visitors
2,468


...
Top Bottom