For those who are burying Cooney thinking

[rrlbees]

Since we are all SU fans nobody wanted to see Cooney fail. But you do need to change the titles of the two lists above. Suggesting that someone is "Accurate" for saying that Cooney would be good this year or very good is giving far too much credit. Based on Cooney's lack of performance last year, which was the sum total of the actual evidence we had, these guys weren't "accurate". This is the "Hope" crowd who "felt" for whatever reason that Cooney would become much better. And he did. But anyone who says they "knew" is IMHO F.O.S. The other column might be labelled "The Realists" who couldn't draw a line from Cooney of last year to a contributor this year. All this is is a "guess" that worked out. That being said, Cooney and Ennis are carrying this team right now. If we don't start getting some offense down low, this is going to be a much more difficult season than the currently starry-eyed suspect.

Actually an argument could be made that the 2 labels you give them could be reversed.

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[moqui]

Since we are all SU fans nobody wanted to see Cooney fail.

But you do need to change the titles of the two lists above.

Suggesting that someone is "Accurate" for saying that Cooney would be good this year or very good is giving far too much credit. Based on Cooney's lack of performance last year, which was the sum total of the actual evidence we had, these guys weren't "accurate". This is the "Hope" crowd who "felt" for whatever reason that Cooney would become much better. And he did. But anyone who says they "knew" is IMHO F.O.S.

The other column might be labelled "The Realists" who couldn't draw a line from Cooney of last year to a contributor this year. All this is is a "guess" that worked out.

That being said, Cooney and Ennis are carrying this team right now. If we don't start getting some offense down low, this is going to be a much more difficult season than the currently starry-eyed suspect.

there was plenty of evidence for anyone who cared to see it. First, every report from practice was that he was an outstanding shooter - every single one. Second, it was clear that his form was solid, the shots were just off. It was not unreasonable at all to put the two together and know that he would be a good shooter. Also, my own faith in Cooney was based on his total game - he played very well in every other aspect of the game besides shooting last year.

 

[Townie72]

Actually an argument could be made that the 2 labels you give them could be reversed.

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

You mean that Cooney's potential was so obvious last year that those who felt he would be good this year are the "Realists"?

 

[Townie72]

there was plenty of evidence for anyone who cared to see it. First, every report from practice was that he was an outstanding shooter - every single one. Second, it was clear that his form was solid, the shots were just off. It was not unreasonable at all to put the two together and know that he would be a good shooter. Also, my own faith in Cooney was based on his total game - he played very well in every other aspect of the game besides shooting last year.

OK. There were some 'clues" although shooting 'in practice" might not be the strongest case you can make. And "form" has become pretty much standard. You don't have anybody shooting like Dick Barnett any more. As for his "floor game" I have several images of him tripping on defense and sprawing on the floor.

I'll translate that into "gut feel" based on a little data.

So with this insight of yours, who of the current benchwarmers will be very good next year? And who won't?

 

[IthacaMatt]

Our guard like to leak out on the break and free run at the rim just means there is nobody blocking you out! You still has to jump or out jump someone! Rebounds rarely hit the ground!

Not the last 2 years. That's why our rebounding has been better but our production on the fast break has been poorer. We haven't scored as much the last couple years because we are buckling down on the defensive end, the guards are helping out and not taking off on the break.

 

[dollarbill44]

Since we are all SU fans nobody wanted to see Cooney fail.

But you do need to change the titles of the two lists above.

Suggesting that someone is "Accurate" for saying that Cooney would be good this year or very good is giving far too much credit. Based on Cooney's lack of performance last year, which was the sum total of the actual evidence we had, these guys weren't "accurate". This is the "Hope" crowd who "felt" for whatever reason that Cooney would become much better. And he did. But anyone who says they "knew" is IMHO F.O.S.

The other column might be labelled "The Realists" who couldn't draw a line from Cooney of last year to a contributor this year. All this is is a "guess" that worked out.

That being said, Cooney and Ennis are carrying this team right now. If we don't start getting some offense down low, this is going to be a much more difficult season than the currently starry-eyed suspect.

In my experience, "Realists" are what pessimists call themselves.

 

[NKR1978]

The other column might be labelled "The Realists" who couldn't draw a line from Cooney of last year to a contributor this year. All this is is a "guess" that worked out.

You said he should transfer to a D3 school to get real PT. There is nothing "realist" about that.

I thought he would progress like Rautins did. Had no idea he would be one of the stars of the team so soon.

 

[Townie72]

You said he should transfer to a D3 school to get real PT. There is nothing "realist" about that.

I thought he would progress like Rautins did. Had no idea he would be one of the stars of the team so soon.

I'd be a little careful about the "Star" term. We need more evidence.

Last night he was a star. There was a stretch of games this year in which he shot 3 for 14. In one game in Hawaii he turned the ball over twice in 15 seconds.

I, quite frankly, thought he stunk up the gym in most of the games I watched last year. JB put him in only to give the other guards a blow. Based on what I saw on the court --- not rumors from practice or gut feel --- I thought he needed to step down a level.

I'm glad he has had the good games he has had. I hope he's MacNamara Redux. But let's not get carried away.

 

[Townie72]

In my experience, "Realists" are what pessimists call themselves.

And what do the starry-eyed optimists call themselves?

 

[moqui]

OK. There were some 'clues" although shooting 'in practice" might not be the strongest case you can make. And "form" has become pretty much standard. You don't have anybody shooting like Dick Barnett any more. As for his "floor game" I have several images of him tripping on defense and sprawing on the floor.

I'll translate that into "gut feel" based on a little data.

So with this insight of yours, who of the current benchwarmers will be very good next year? And who won't?

I made my judgements on Cooney after watching play in nearly every game and averaging about 10 minutes per contest - that's not a little data, its quite a bit. It doesn't look like we are going to have the same level of evidence for any of the Sons.

I'll give you a hint, though - I won't fixate on "images" of a guy falling down, I'll try to see the entire body of work.

 

[rrlbees]

Last night he was a star. There was a stretch of games this year in which he shot 3 for 14. In one game in Hawaii he turned the ball over twice in 15 seconds.

Yes he was a star last night. But on the night you call out his 2 turnovers in 15 seconds, he also had 23 points on 5/8 from 3. But the other 32m 15s he played doesn't count.

And if he had a stretch of 3/14 that means he is 23/41 on the others. A tidy 56% and a larger sample size.

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[Townie72]

I made my judgements on Cooney after watching play in nearly every game and averaging about 10 minutes per contest - that's not a little data, its quite a bit. It doesn't look like we are going to have the same level of evidence for any of the Sons.

I'll give you a hint, though - I won't fixate on "images" of a guy falling down, I'll try to see the entire body of work.

His entire "body of work" last year was to give the starters a blow. If he was any good, he would have had more PT. My reaction when I saw him at the scorer's table waiting to check in was "No!"

And from that you projected what? Greatness? Adequacy?

Amazing.

Of course, I don't know what your whole "body of work" on projections has been. But I am reminded somehow of the quip about the blind squirrel and the acorn.

 

[NKR1978]

His entire "body of work" last year was to give the starters a blow. If he was any good, he would have had more PT. My reaction when I saw him at the scorer's table waiting to check in was "No!"

And from that you projected what? Greatness? Adequacy?

Amazing.

Of course, I don't know what your whole "body of work" on projections has been. But I am reminded somehow of the quip about the blind squirrel and the acorn.

With this logic, do you believe that all of the freshmen other than Ennis should transfer since they aren't getting any minutes in close games? Seems Trevor is being held to a different standard than most of our solid four year players are held to. Countless SU players sat the bench their freshman year only to star later in their careers.

 

[SUFan44]

I'd be a little careful about the "Star" term. We need more evidence.

Last night he was a star. There was a stretch of games this year in which he shot 3 for 14. In one game in Hawaii he turned the ball over twice in 15 seconds.

I, quite frankly, thought he stunk up the gym in most of the games I watched last year. JB put him in only to give the other guards a blow. Based on what I saw on the court --- not rumors from practice or gut feel --- I thought he needed to step down a level.

I'm glad he has had the good games he has had. I hope he's MacNamara Redux. But let's not get carried away.

I, quite frankly, will side with a Hall of Fame coach who played him in every game last year despite "stinking up the gym in most games".

Cooney showed aptitude to be a good player last year - the shots didn't fall. But the form was there, the athleticism to play good defense was there, the basketball IQ was there.

There were a lot of signs that he could be good this year given more minutes and given a little bit more freedom to pull the trigger.

 

[moqui]

none are so blind as those who refuse to see

 

[djcon57]

Of course, I don't know what your whole "body of work" on projections has been. But I am reminded somehow of the quip about the blind squirrel and the acorn.

Maybe some people on the board know more about basketball than you and can see things you can't see
:noidea:

 

[Townie72]

Maybe some people on the board know more about basketball than you and can see things you can't see
:noidea:

Given that TC was used almost exclusively to spell the other guards, it would appear that JB didn't have the basketball knowledge that "some people on this board" have either. What other explanation for his failure to see the talent that was brimming just below the surface that the experts on here could see so plainly?

Last year Grant showed "flashes of of brilliance" last year in games. TC had "Flashes of adequacy".

Those who now say they knew all along remind me of Little Jack Horner who pulled out a plum and said, "What a bright boy am I."

 

[Townie72]

With this logic, do you believe that all of the freshmen other than Ennis should transfer since they aren't getting any minutes in close games? Seems Trevor is being held to a different standard than most of our solid four year players are held to. Countless SU players sat the bench their freshman year only to star later in their careers.

But he didn't sit the bench ... assuming the 10 mins per game is accurate.

 

[djcon57]

Given that TC was used almost exclusively to spell the other guards, it would appear that JB didn't have the basketball knowledge that "some people on this board" have either. What other explanation for his failure to see the talent that was brimming just below the surface that the experts on here could see so plainly?

Last year, MCW and Triche were better that he was?

 

[Waltdods]

OK. There were some 'clues" although shooting 'in practice" might not be the strongest case you can make. And "form" has become pretty much standard. You don't have anybody shooting like Dick Barnett any more. As for his "floor game" I have several images of him tripping on defense and sprawing on the floor.

I'll translate that into "gut feel" based on a little data.

So with this insight of yours, who of the current benchwarmers will be very good next year? And who won't?

This screed against the impossibility of prediction would be a little more compelling if you weren't using it to defend your own (quite aggressive) prediction.

I was decidedly in the skeptical about Cooney camp coming into the season. I thought and may have even said that if he was the starting 2g all season, the team was looking at a fairly low (for SU) ceiling. It looks like I was wrong.

I don't know. To me the lesson of Cooney's improvement is much like the lesson of Rautins' and Fab Melo's and Demetris Nichols' and so many others: we all should be damned cautious about declaring any player a lost cause, and sweeping statements that any young SU player will never amount to anything are more likely to make the speaker look stupid than anything.

I don't really want to engage in the semantic fight about who's a "realist" because it's dumb, but I will say this. It is of course true that you cannot judge a process by outcomes - sometimes you do everything right and end up getting the answer wrong, while someone else does everything wrong and gets the answer right. But it takes a heck of a lot of hubris to claim that getting the answer wrong is itself somehow a vindication.

 

[NineOneSeven]

This screed against the impossibility of prediction would be a little more compelling if you weren't using it to defend your own (quite aggressive) prediction.

I was decidedly in the skeptical about Cooney camp coming into the season. I thought and may have even said that if he was the starting 2g all season, the team was looking at a fairly low (for SU) ceiling. It looks like I was wrong.

I don't know. To me the lesson of Cooney's improvement is much like the lesson of Rautins' and Fab Melo's and Demetris Nichols' and so many others: we all should be damned cautious about declaring any player a lost cause, and sweeping statements that any young SU player will never amount to anything are more likely to make the speaker look stupid than anything.

I don't really want to engage in the semantic fight about who's a "realist" because it's dumb, but I will say this. It is of course true that you cannot judge a process by outcomes - sometimes you do everything right and end up getting the answer wrong, while someone else does everything wrong and gets the answer right. But it takes a heck of a lot of hubris to claim that getting the answer wrong is itself somehow a vindication.

That last paragraph just blew my mind. Are you Descartes?

 

[LennX6]

Last year, MCW and Triche were better that he was?

You know, these are VERY pleasant discussions to have. I remember last year at this time , the board was abuzz that MCW should have started over Scoop the year prior. I want to keep having these convos every year!

 

[Oakland]

there was plenty of evidence for anyone who cared to see it. First, every report from practice was that he was an outstanding shooter - every single one. Second, it was clear that his form was solid, the shots were just off. It was not unreasonable at all to put the two together and know that he would be a good shooter. Also, my own faith in Cooney was based on his total game - he played very well in every other aspect of the game besides shooting last year.

The flaw in this argument is that all your two conditions were also true before last season.

 

[Gabjon]

Not the last 2 years. That's why our rebounding has been better but our production on the fast break has been poorer. We haven't scored as much the last couple years because we are buckling down on the defensive end, the guards are helping out and not taking off on the break.

Are you counting this year as a year? not last year or the first 8 games this year...agreed but this is a very old post...Scoop didn't rebound...

 

[moqui]

The flaw in this argument is that all your two conditions were also true before last season.

he hadn't played against any college competition prior to last season